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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

First post First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#281 - 2013-04-18 17:39:03 UTC
Frogs wrote:
This is so awesome. I'm going to get all of Test banned. I'll just sit in Delve and petition anyone that logs in changes a skill, then logs out as an obvious cheater. Clearly they used EVEmon (an evil third party tool that uses cache scraping and explicitly against the EULA) to know it was time to log in and make the in game change.
…too bad that there's nothing to indicate that they're breaking any rules.
Qual
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#282 - 2013-04-18 17:40:11 UTC
EVE drama is BEST drama!

In the absence of good CAOD drama I would like to thank everyone who is worked up over this for providing much needed forum LOL's.

Much ado about nothing, as usual, of course.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#283 - 2013-04-18 17:42:22 UTC
Qual wrote:
EVE drama is BEST drama!

In the absence of good CAOD drama I would like to thank everyone who is worked up over this for providing much needed forum LOL's.

Much ado about nothing, as usual, of course.


Spot on!

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#284 - 2013-04-18 17:43:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Beaver Retriever wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation.

The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth.

We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.

Then ban everyone who uses them.

You can't operate with a policy where literally all your customers are breaking the EULA and you're merely deciding not to ban at this point in time.

Of course they can, and have for years.

"Technically you are breaking our rules by using a tool that accesses our software in that way. However we realize there is no malicious intent on your part, so there will be no enforcement while we put things in place to allow a more legitimate way for you to use a utility like this."

It's not really that difficult.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#285 - 2013-04-18 17:43:29 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation.

The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth.

We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.


The language of the third party policies post says that you may choose to "tolerate" certain programs or behaviors though, even if you don't authorize them.

Can we have a list of programs that you're currently tolerating instead? :)

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Raffiki
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2013-04-18 17:46:31 UTC
I absolutely don't appreciate the idea of changing a policy to one that everyone is in violation of, but then telling everyone it's ok to continue doing it. Unless we change our minds later. Change the rule and enforce, pissing off 95% of your playerbase and take the criticism that's coming, or don't change the policy. Don't make this sorta wishy-washy crap that means nothing except we're reserving the right to throw this rule at you at some point in the future but it's ok for now.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2013-04-18 17:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
CCP Stillman wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation.

The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth.

We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.


You don't need to recommend the use of a tool or claim to know everything it does: you'd merely need to state that the use of tool X doesn't constitute an EULA violation. I'm not sure how saying "we won't ban you for using X" makes you legally liable for the actions of third parties, but then again I'm not a lawyer. Then again, neither are you.

Regardless, you need to come up with EULA wording that doesn't leave 95% of your customers in violation by default. Given that you already have clauses in the EULA that ban the sorts of activities you consider detrimental to the game (modifying the game world, accelerating or automating gameplay for the player's advantage), I don't see why your new stance on cache scraping is even necessary.

I don't really care how you go about addressing this deficiency of your EULA, but something should be done.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#288 - 2013-04-18 17:47:46 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation.

The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth.

We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.


The language of the third party policies post says that you may choose to "tolerate" certain programs or behaviors though, even if you don't authorize them.

Can we have a list of programs that you're currently tolerating instead? :)


The problem with list is that some of these pieces of software include things that can easily be used to go beyond their simple function as a utility. Providing a list opens a loop hole that would be much more difficult to plug.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Daniel limb
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2013-04-18 17:47:51 UTC
It's a good thing EveMon is the only reason I remember to buy PLEX every month.

What's that? It's on the prohibited software list? That's a shame. Let's see how long I can keep my accounts su
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#290 - 2013-04-18 17:48:15 UTC
Well, that should spice up FANFEST ! ! ! !

Huzzah !


Big smile

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Jack Haydn
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#291 - 2013-04-18 17:48:53 UTC
You guys do realize that you make yourself look pretty ridiculous when you point out the "not my department" line, right?

The various departments in your company can't cooperate (security and api devs or whatever the hell it is in this case) and therefore we as customers have to deal with this shizophrenic crap. Security puts up a wall around themselves and points to api devs, saying "Hey, this should be solved via the API, so we'll announce that cache scraping is a EULA bannable offence". The API devs, probably swamped with CREST work or whatever, put a wall around them, claiming "The stuff the players need works right now, we're working on something else and really don't have the time to change this".

The customer has to deal with two departments in one company who can't cooperate. The sane thing would be for security to say "Alright, until we get this stuff fixed on our behalf and until you can access the stuff via more technically appropriate means, let's go ahead and remove this bannable bit from the EULA. Please, players, until we get our stuff in order, go ahead and scrape all you want".

But nope, you rather ridicule yourself by putting out this shizophrenic, departmental behavior and point at each other internally, in public. Good stuff!
Roime
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#292 - 2013-04-18 17:49:29 UTC
Frogs wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation.

The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth.

We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.


This is so awesome. I'm going to get all of Test banned. I'll just sit in Delve and petition anyone that logs in changes a skill, then logs out as an obvious cheater. Clearly they used EVEmon (an evil third party tool that uses cache scraping and explicitly against the EULA) to know it was time to log in and make the in game change.

Thanks for this CCP.


EVEMon uses the API to check for skills

It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.



.

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#293 - 2013-04-18 17:49:57 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

The problem with list is that some of these pieces of software include things that can easily be used to go beyond their simple function as a utility. Providing a list opens a loop hole that would be much more difficult to plug.


If someone is using a tool (any tool) that allows them to accelerate / automate gameplay or modify the game world they can already be banned for violating the EULA under the clauses that pertain to those sorts of actions. Where are you seeing a loophole here?
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#294 - 2013-04-18 17:52:14 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
War Kitten wrote:

Can we have a list of programs that you're currently tolerating instead? :)


The problem with list is that some of these pieces of software include things that can easily be used to go beyond their simple function as a utility. Providing a list opens a loop hole that would be much more difficult to plug.


Yup. My library for example, can be used for evil (by combining it with other things). I sincerely hope people aren't doing that though, I didn't write it for that.
And I don't expect CCP to greenlist anything really. They can't. I know that.

But this "rule by fear/terror" thing is not the way to handle the bigger issue (people abusing the otherwise harmless game data to cheat) here.

Punish people that cheat. Leave us 3rd party devs increasing the value of CCP's product go about our business in peace.

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?

Cebraio
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#295 - 2013-04-18 17:52:46 UTC
Roime wrote:

EVEMon uses the API to check for skills

It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.

EVEMon also provides a market uploader that uses cache-scraping. Maybe you should be worried too?
Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#296 - 2013-04-18 17:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mostlyharmlesss
I'm probably going against the masses, but I'm actually okay with this 'ban' on cache scraping. I trust CCP's judgement in determining what is a good app and what is a bad app.

That being said, I expect CCP to be very very very transparent down to a per-app level.

Also, as pointed out earlier in the thread, the EULA could've been worded better.

Edit: Even better, make an API for market data and solve this entire thing.

Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#297 - 2013-04-18 17:54:29 UTC
Roime wrote:
EVEMon uses the API to check for skills

It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.


Evemon has a cache scraper to upload market data as well. You might not be using it at the moment, but it's still a program that is capable of using it. ie, you might pull a ban if CCP feels like banning you, with no warning, no recourse, and you're out however many years you sunk into eve.

The real botters I'm sure don't give a **** about this, they know they'll pull a ban eventually. And most likely move onto another account etc.
iskflakes
#298 - 2013-04-18 17:55:34 UTC
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
I'm probably going against the masses, but I'm actually okay with this 'ban' on cache scraping. I trust CCP's judgement in determining what is a good app and what is a bad app.


If only they would actually tell us....

-

Roime
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#299 - 2013-04-18 17:56:28 UTC
No, they have already stated that they won't do that. If you are worried, turn the feature off.

Anyway, Goon whine is obviously not about Evemon.

.

Slumberg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#300 - 2013-04-18 17:56:47 UTC
So to help in the fight against bots you are making the use of EveMon a permaban offense, but it probably may not be enforced maybe no promises. Also, multiboxing software is illegal when it is illegal and legal whrn it is legal. Thanks for clearing that up.

You guys are terrible. Please walk this crap back and apologize. Banning people for tracking their skill queue with third party software should literally be your lowest priority.