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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Potato IQ
Doomheim
#1581 - 2011-10-31 16:52:50 UTC
gfldex wrote:
b) smallish empire corps don't want to protect COs all over the map


Then they don’t have the right to the better yields. I’ve never been a LS resident, but wouldn’t this promote organized corps/alliances and enable that which is supposed to be difficult to come by, namely PvP. And all over the map is exaggerated. It may lead to pockets of ‘controlled’ systems, which again, should be a positive move for corp/alliance turf wars

Ingvar Angst wrote:
This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain.


If POCO’s encourage gangs to come and destroy them, then I have to disagree. Mass restrictions make BS use tough, hence an ideal use for the new T3 BC’s (coincidence) with support. Losing PI goods for fleet battles is an easy price to pay
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1582 - 2011-10-31 18:32:41 UTC

Ingvar Angst wrote:
This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain.


If POCO’s encourage gangs to come and destroy them, then I have to disagree. Mass restrictions make BS use tough, hence an ideal use for the new T3 BC’s (coincidence) with support. Losing PI goods for fleet battles is an easy price to pay
[/quote]

But... it won't. It's not worth it. You enter a hole, put the POCOs into reinforced... then leave, because in 16 to 24 hrs max the hole is closing behind you and the rf timer is minimum 24hrs. The residents simply shake their heads, roll their holes when you go and rep things back up. You waste your ammo and time and the residents time, nothing else.

If you're actually invading the hole the POCOs will be the last thing you worry about. They're not a threat and the residents won't be worrying about running PI goods with an invading force in the hole. Once you've evicted the residents... then what? Ooh! I know... let's go waste more ammo and time on the POCOs.

Hurrah.

POCOs are a wasted concept ultimately in wormholes. The time it would take zero tax PI to pay for the costs don't make them worth it, but they'll be necessary evils in order to keep PI functioning.

They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear.

However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to.

Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#1583 - 2011-10-31 19:45:41 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:


They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear.

However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to.

Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins.


In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets.

W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin.

Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish.

C.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1584 - 2011-10-31 19:57:40 UTC
Cailais wrote:

In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets.

W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin.

Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish.

C.


Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned.

But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back.

W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1585 - 2011-10-31 20:08:46 UTC
Cailais wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear.

However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to.

Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins.


In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets.

W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin.

Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish.

C.



the problem with low sec pi is. there is so little differnce from high sec(0.4-0.2) that its not worth the isk/risk/headache setting one up. there are a few planets that are great for a short time, but useless after 1 person has used them for any length of time. you wont get to see the tax cover costs there.

there just isnt enough reasons to set one up in low sec in my view. pos's are just as dull to shoot, but at least there is genrally something with a decent isk value on that moon that you will see a return on inside 30days. with a planet you gotta wait how many months 6/12/18?

OMG when can i get a pic here
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1586 - 2011-10-31 20:18:27 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk.


Most w-space corps that I've talked to are going to put them up - they just wish that they had defenses and they're not looking forward to the logistics of getting them setup initially. After that, they'll probably treat them as a corporate asset like the POS towers, maybe with a low tariff setting to generate a bit of additional rainy day money for their corp.

At least now, the ISK from the tariff fees will be going into corp coffers instead of into an NPC's wallet.
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#1587 - 2011-10-31 20:34:20 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:



Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned.

But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back.

W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk.


In terms of the question of 'how much to tax' we might well see market forces come into play. If the tax rate is too high PI players may well migrate to planets with lower tax demands. Those corps that enforce lockouts will, rather ironically, set themselves up as prime targets for attack - their planets being rather juicy and productive (if self run) or barren of PI structures if left fallow.

POCOs in w space are most likely to be managed by the same players running the PI - but some will see the advantage of pre setting POCOs across w space on the basis that others wont want the hassle (especially if the tax rate is low). A risky investment for sure but its entirely possible. Is it worth blowing up a low tax POCO and then go through the trouble of bringing in your own POCO if someone else has done that for you?

C.
Red Zaya
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1588 - 2011-10-31 22:16:01 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about ....... Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job.


No you dont know what you are talking about. Say "I and my numerous alts manage few dozen PI planets" and you have a chance to be less ridiculous as far as ONE character cant have more than 6 planets, ok ? This is very basic knowledge, "Mister Expert".
And someone who says "take 20 % less yeld" makes me laugh, this isn't serious PI, just "oh i dont want to do that job seriously it's too tiring".
Spend hours before placing colonies ? Well now i understand why you are totally unable to make serious PI.Lol
If you want to give lessons to others, try to know REALLY what you are talking about. You're ready for EveUniversity Twisted
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1589 - 2011-10-31 22:42:29 UTC
The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog.

They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1590 - 2011-10-31 23:18:57 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned.


How can you be so certain that there won't be reasonable tax rates?

Quote:
But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back.


Fighting back would be what the combat ships are for.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1591 - 2011-10-31 23:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about.

If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract.

Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day.

Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO).


I tend to move once every four to six weeks. Hardly a "hot spot of the day" thing. Still, it only takes once and you're no longer connected to the command post. These worlmole planets hold up quite well for a good period of time, but not forever at any one location. So, based on my PI levels and how well I can maximize extraction --> P1 conversion per planets, there are periodic moves required.

You sure you manage a few dozen planets? You should know something so basic.



CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature.

CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said:

Quote:
Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.


THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo.

I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1592 - 2011-10-31 23:58:00 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog.

They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics.



Any idea on the exact LP / ISK cost for the BPC from FW LP Store??

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1593 - 2011-11-01 00:15:47 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog.

They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics.



Any idea on the exact LP / ISK cost for the BPC from FW LP Store??

3000 LP and I think 10 mil isk (not sure about the isk, going from memory). But I notice there's CONCORD COs all over lowsec, not sure if they are destroyable. Just injected the skills for a dread on sisi, will let you know tomorrow Big smile

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
bilingi
Grandeur Illusions
#1594 - 2011-11-01 00:43:44 UTC
Im just wondering what Idiot will actually use a player Poco in low sec..... Hello look a customer ....... BOOOOOMMM...Pirate

HAHAHHA what a carebear quick lets wait on the next one....Roll
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1595 - 2011-11-01 01:13:10 UTC
bilingi wrote:
Im just wondering what Idiot will actually use a player Poco in low sec..... Hello look a customer ....... BOOOOOMMM...Pirate

HAHAHHA what a carebear quick lets wait on the next one....Roll



There's nothing I can add to improve upon this...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1596 - 2011-11-01 05:57:11 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
bilingi wrote:
Im just wondering what Idiot will actually use a player Poco in low sec..... Hello look a customer ....... BOOOOOMMM...Pirate

HAHAHHA what a carebear quick lets wait on the next one....Roll



There's nothing I can add to improve upon this...


Indeed. His post is utterly beyond help.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1597 - 2011-11-01 12:19:14 UTC
rootimus maximus wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned.


How can you be so certain that there won't be reasonable tax rates?

Quote:
But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back.


Fighting back would be what the combat ships are for.


1. Human nature. You may initially see low tax rates to draw people to the planet by some before raising them, but really... if you're doing PI in low, where the resources are limited, do you really want to make it cheap for others to drain those resources? No. You either cut them off or jack up the rates. If their entire assumption is that corps will plant these and be kind and gentle overlords... well, it appears CCP doesn't know their own game, and that's scary.

2. Fighting back... there's no reason for high sec PI folks to fight back once these things are implemented as originally stated. What for? If you're in an NPC corp, as many are, you can't plant your own. However, if you leave the customs offices in place, then high sec folks can opt to destroy the offensive POCOs and regain full access to their PI.

It's pitifully sad CCP is ignoring these issues though while those looking to abuse the system (or that have no horse in the race and simply will laugh at the griefing) blow sunshine up their arses.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1598 - 2011-11-01 12:20:46 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature.

CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said:

Quote:
Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.


THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo.

I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel...



They already have coded for the PI power users. Otherwise there wouldn't be any. They're potentially breaking an established paradigm.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1599 - 2011-11-01 17:33:08 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature.

CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said:

Quote:
Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.


THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo.

I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel...



They already have coded for the PI power users. Otherwise there wouldn't be any. They're potentially breaking an established paradigm.


Wow.

80 pages and several weeks later, and you're still just upset that CCP is changing things? "Breaking an established paradigm"?

Yes, CCP is moving your cheese. Get over the angst Mr. Angst.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1600 - 2011-11-01 17:48:03 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature.

CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said:

Quote:
Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.


THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo.

I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel...



They already have coded for the PI power users. Otherwise there wouldn't be any. They're potentially breaking an established paradigm.



There is no potential about it, they are breaking an established paradigm.

With that said, what is at issue is the paradigm they are shifting to... a paradigm shift that needs to be critiqued by the community to ensure its the 'right' paradigm shift.

So when I say they will not code for power users, you've misunderstood my meaning:

They will not modify their paradigm shift to cater to power users, as the current paradigm is being broken in favor of a new PCO-centric paradigm.

So arguing about maintaining a paradigm that will not be maintained, is a waste of time.

What will be productive, will be approaching CCP with reasonable arguments that attempt to alter their theoretical paradigm vision to a realistic and practical one that actually fits real game play dynamics.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf