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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Author
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1561 - 2011-10-29 22:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Jack Dant wrote:
rootimus maximus wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

I wonder if after this feature, Team Pi will be continuing work on refining PI in general?


Given that it's completely tied in with Dust, and given that we'll need something to defend our colonies from console kiddies, one would very much hope so.

I very much doubt Dust guys will attack colonies. All the news from Dust say it's based on corps, and CCP has not moved away from the "colonies for players not corps" idea.

My own guess is that CCP will introduce a surface counterpart to the customs office, and Dust bunnies will fight over those.


This is very plausible given the structures being attacked in the DUST 514: E3 2011 video are not PI Colonies - but instead, in addition to the planetary side of the Orbital Elevator, other unidentified control structures seem to be in play as well - and could indeed be corp based installations for planetary control?

Good call Jack.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Yekster
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1562 - 2011-10-30 02:58:57 UTC
Sorry in advance for not reading all 80 pages of this post.

What is the proposed skill level of Anchoring required to drop a Customs Office?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1563 - 2011-10-30 03:28:40 UTC
Yekster wrote:
Sorry in advance for not reading all 80 pages of this post.

What is the proposed skill level of Anchoring required to drop a Customs Office?


Not stated, but the assumption is that you would need the same skills needed to anchor a POS tower (along with the proper roles).
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#1564 - 2011-10-30 07:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Desert Ice78
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Max O'Deel wrote:
So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters.
POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).

POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.

POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.

Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.

Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved.


POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.

We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.


Yet again it appear that you have not listened to a single ******* thing that has been said here, nor do you intend to.

History lesson; this is exactly how PI was rolled out in the first place. And that was so ******* terrible (even by CCP standards) that you had to spend another iteration fixing it to the point where it was no longer terrible, just mearly rubbish.

edit: Can't wait for your blog describing the "...wonderful, exciting, great...." changes your going to make. I swear you'll be able to hear me scream all the way in ******* Iceland.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

Holy One
Privat Party
#1565 - 2011-10-30 08:37:41 UTC
When Henry Ford was asked about consumer wishes..
He replied "If I had asked what consumers wanted, they would have said "a faster horse". Big smile

:)

Silva Krell
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1566 - 2011-10-30 10:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Silva Krell
I see that 'The hanger on space ports is gone'


However I see that in the picture just above that quote in your dev blog the space port still have 10k storage. To confirm were you just talking about the interface? Will space ports still beable to store 10k m3?


Also station manager is too important a role. I think there should be a different/new role for customs offices as some corps won't want to give out station manager roles for this.

Finally the reinforement timer is too short. Should be 2 days at least for structure that will cost about 100 mil, or you should have the option to build a stronger CO with a longer timer. It will be far too easy to grief destroy these things atm.
Gingys Han
EVE Research
Nulla Clementia
#1567 - 2011-10-30 14:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gingys Han
All offices should be conquerable from NPC and when they exit reinforcement in 0.1 - 0.4 space a COCORD fleet should be there to defent it and players within range with positive standing and no pirateing activity should be notified with a special mission to join forces. If they lose it then it can be replaced with a player owned office and from time to time CONCORD should try to gain control over it again informing players with that special mission.

The reward should be LP points or standing towards the faction that sent out the troops.

That would be more fair IMHO.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1568 - 2011-10-30 16:18:04 UTC
Gingys Han wrote:
All offices should be conquerable from NPC and when they exit reinforcement in 0.1 - 0.4 space a COCORD fleet should be there to defent it and players within range with positive standing and no pirateing activity should be notified with a special mission to join forces. If they lose it then it can be replaced with a player owned office and from time to time CONCORD should try to gain control over it again informing players with that special mission.

The reward should be LP points or standing towards the faction that sent out the troops.

That would be more fair IMHO.



*facepalm Oops

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
Exxitium
#1569 - 2011-10-30 19:27:03 UTC
Pamela Zolo wrote:
This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...


Well...

I am against the change in low sec...

Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...




Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets.

C.


Cantabar
Perkone
Caldari State
#1570 - 2011-10-30 20:10:28 UTC
I think it would be amazing if you could tax a percentage of materials instead of taxing using isk.

Ex. Tax rate = 10%
Enriched Uranium exported = 100 units
Tax = 10 units of EU

Just a thought.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1571 - 2011-10-30 20:50:08 UTC
Cailais wrote:
Pamela Zolo wrote:
This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...


Well...

I am against the change in low sec...

Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...




Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets.

C.




well unles low sec pi gets a buff( the amounts are bad in 0.4-0.2) there will still be no economic reasons to fight for the right to pi/deploy planet things.

i do hate to bang on, but revist pi and then when thats not a pile of ****, look at this addition

OMG when can i get a pic here

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1572 - 2011-10-30 21:10:13 UTC
Pamela Zolo wrote:
This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...


Well...

I am against the change in low sec...

Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...


CCP's concept of these is a lot more suited to lowsec (and, incidentally, highsec) than to sov 0.0. They want you to get income from strangers using your planet. But in sov 0.0 there are no strangers, only alliance grunts, renters and hostiles. In empire you have many different corps and alliances living in close proximity, using the same resources, but not necessarily being aware of each other.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

gfldex
#1573 - 2011-10-30 21:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: gfldex
So lets see a little further down the road. COs in lowsec went wrong because a) there is not enough tax generated per individual colony and b) smallish empire corps don't want to protect COs all over the map.

How about allowing more then 1 Command Center per planet in lowsec? I'm a big fan of the vast networks one can build in openttd. It's a little saddening that you can't do that in EVE. With combining the power of 6 CCs on a single planet you could. On top of that the output per single planet could greatly increase and thus the export tax would raise.

There is a trap for the greedy in there as well. If you put all your eggs into the same basket it's more likely somebody wants to stomp it. You depends more on other players via the market or your corp if you want to make POS fuel. What can go either way.

This change might enrich PI more then the introduction of ECUs did.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1574 - 2011-10-30 23:19:29 UTC
Allowing more then one POCO per planet:

- No more need to interact with other players in order to claim the planet. This goes against the stated goal of encouraging conflict.

- Spreads the revenue per POCO out even more, which makes the economic situation even worse.

If you want the planet's revenue, then you have to place and defend your own POCO (just like any moon's resources). Or you have to cooperate with other players. Or smuggle stuff out using the command center launches (with the higher tariffs and limited launch capability).
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1575 - 2011-10-31 00:10:47 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Cailais wrote:
Pamela Zolo wrote:
This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...


Well...

I am against the change in low sec...

Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...




Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets.

C.




well unles low sec pi gets a buff( the amounts are bad in 0.4-0.2) there will still be no economic reasons to fight for the right to pi/deploy planet things.

i do hate to bang on, but revist pi and then when thats not a pile of ****, look at this addition


It's pure speculation, but with the increased bandwidth, it seems reasonable that CCP would tweak the P0 planetary consentration spawns?

Again pure speculation - maybe Team Pi could weigh in on whether or not P0 spawns are being increased commensurate with the increased link bandwidth?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1576 - 2011-10-31 12:09:19 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center.

(I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.)


Choice? You ever do PI before? It's not a choice, it's a necessity. Unless you're running some scrawny-assed mini-network you'll be having to chase the resources around the planet. This will require you to move your network around. I don't know of anyone that puts anything resembling effort into their PI that hasn't had this issue.

This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Red Zaya
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1577 - 2011-10-31 14:55:53 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You ever do PI before?


+1. And this question could be asked to so many people posting on this thread, who obviously do NOT know anything about PI but probably just argue to get more greiffing targets or to push their huge alliances interests over the top (I even read some want to suppress storage in spaceports, Roll only somebody who does not know what serious PI is could say such stupidity).

79 pages of discussion and we still have the same result : This project is not mature. Obviously CCP did NOT make ANY accurate analysis before bringing this on the forum. The only analysis made was maybe, surely, "let us kill PI for a maximum number of players this might make more PLEXes buyers".

At the same time, a single look to the crazy rise of all PI components, specially POS fuel and Tier4 components, since POCOs are discuted here, is far enough to understand what will happen, because it allready happens and this is not just speculation :

- POS fuel cost +60 %
- building caps or stations + 35 %

You are single player in NPC corp ? Forget about PI
You are small corporation ( less than 50 players) ? Forget about PI you wont be able to protect your POCOs
You are small alliance (less than 400 players) and want to build caps or station in a sov ? Just forget it or accept twice price.
You are CCP and want more players ? LOL ! Might have a very bad surprise : maybe numerous players could be fed up to be just considered as the paying pigs.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1578 - 2011-10-31 15:35:20 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Choice? You ever do PI before? It's not a choice, it's a necessity. Unless you're running some scrawny-assed mini-network you'll be having to chase the resources around the planet. This will require you to move your network around. I don't know of anyone that puts anything resembling effort into their PI that hasn't had this issue.

This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain.


Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about.

If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract.

Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day.

Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO).
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1579 - 2011-10-31 16:05:29 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about.

If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract.

Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day.

Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO).


I tend to move once every four to six weeks. Hardly a "hot spot of the day" thing. Still, it only takes once and you're no longer connected to the command post. These worlmole planets hold up quite well for a good period of time, but not forever at any one location. So, based on my PI levels and how well I can maximize extraction --> P1 conversion per planets, there are periodic moves required.

You sure you manage a few dozen planets? You should know something so basic.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#1580 - 2011-10-31 16:26:19 UTC
How will this affect PI? Let's go down the list. First I'll go over the different impacts based on security of the system, then I'll go over how it relates to PI as a whole.

Highsec PI: It already has a very low yield for extractors, which in turn makes the return on your time very low. Increased export tax will further reduce these already low margins, to the point of being a pure waste of time, rather than just mostly a waste of time.

Lowsec PI: Some of these planets have the same poor resources as highsec. Others are a little better. On the ones that are poor, nobody uses them. People go to highsec or find a better planet. On the ones that are better, a command center is not a feasible option for getting goods off the planet. Moving colonies or not, a command center doesn't have the space to support any meaningful deployment of goods. With the limits of expedited transfers, it effectively restricts the amount that can be launched to that timer. There are ways around this with lowsec planets, by routing the final product directly to the command center for instance, but this would require being in system far more often to launch, since you can't launch without being in space and in system.

Nulsec PI: This shares the same problem that the better planets of lowsec have. Resources are easier to get, so the overall output is going to be even higher. Command center launches and expedited transfers will simply not keep up. Only the launchpad has the space to store products between launches, unless you're launching several times a day, and the only way to get things from a launchpad into space is through the customs office. This will leave people with two options. First, they can launch from the command center several times a day. Second, they can put up a defenseless structure (ohboy, -more- reinforcement timers, just what people want).

Wormhole PI: Like nulsec, but worse. People living in WH space already have the logistical nightmare of being isolated. This will make it harder to get and manufacture a player owned customs office. Resources are so common on WH planets that even launchpads have trouble keeping up without multiple launches a day, or multiple launchpads. With the only option of using a command center, though, it becomes literally impossible. A single command center is all the planet will ever have, and it simply cannot keep up with the production capabilities of a WH planet.

PI as a whole: PI was implemented as something everyone could do. It allowed anyone, with just a little investment of SP, to put down a command center and poke away at it. Everyone can do PI right now. If this new POCO goes through, it will severely restrict who can do PI. Only those with the logistical backing of a large alliance will be able to place and defend POCOs, effectively removing all solo- and small-scale-PI from nulsec and WH space. Structures do not drive conflict. People do. Removing people from nul and WH is a great way to kill any conflict in EVE.

The rest of EVE: Making PI restrictive, in any way shape or form, will only serve to further increase the costs of running a POS, regardless of where you run it. In highsec, this means less invention. In WH, fewer corps able to maintain a presence, thus forcing them out of WH space. In nulsec, fewer active towers, less things being done with them, fewer supplies of moon goo (further increased T2 prices), fewer caps being made (decreased prices of basic minerals, such as tritanium), and all in all a massive blow to the EVE economy. Structures don't drive the economy. Structures don't drive conflict. People, who find the game entertaining, who want to spend time shooting each other, who want to make lots of isk selling their mining yield, who want to attack the Uni-Blob(tm)... People are the drivers of EVE.

Don't shut out the people, CCP. Listen to everyone, like you said you would. Don't blindly push forward an idea that isn't going to work. We, the players of EVE, are here, watching, and willing to help. Let us help make EVE better, for everyone.

~Ceru

PS; If you really want to get greedy, there's a great way to keep people playing the game, and paying for it. Make EVE better. Listen to the people who pay you. The happier we are, the more you make.