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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Author
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#561 - 2013-04-10 06:26:24 UTC
According to the Minmatar thread, we are meant to be seeing an update on ALL the ships posted at some point today.


"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57

PavlikX
Rezeda Core
Rezeda Regnum
#562 - 2013-04-10 06:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: PavlikX
Looks likewe must write somekind of petition. Look, Galente BSs 'will be updated'

My points
1. Leave Abaddon. Don't change it
2. Leave Apoc alone, or change new tracking bonus with something different. Something coordinated with optimal bonus. Probably damage +5% per level
3. ALL battleships demands role bonus.
NinjaStyle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#563 - 2013-04-10 06:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: NinjaStyle
I guess nothing we've said about the Amarr ships has hit home with anyone no dev replies at all so far :(

Edit: might as well try to be constructive still.

I gotta ask like so many others - Why are Amarr ships the only once incapable to sustaining any sort of dps with high dmg ammo? why can we not fit Tachyons to any Amarr BS without having atleast 1 or several Reactor Controls added (more than 1 is needed if you want just a prop mod beyond the guns not even to mention tank on top of this.) You say we have the best Balance between weapons systems than ever before but the once currently not "Fleeing" from these ships are the once that use NAPOCs and the only reason it works for this doctrine / ship is becaus of two things - They don't need to move to hit most doctrines and their massive EHP. So Basicly insane range, Tracking and EHP makes these ships able to just sit there and hold the field thus not needing to worry as mutch about cap since they use the long range less cap usage ammo anways and are holding postion not needing to use Prop mod.

The old Armor BS doctrines are now thrown away by all but fools they simply hold no advantage anymore since you get neither suffecient EHP nor range or even sustainability from these types of setups. This really makes me want to ask: How can the weapon systems be more equal than ever when Laser weaponry is starting to be more and more of a Joke to attempt to use against more versatile and sustainable systems like Autocannons and Rails? We can't even use our "Strongest" Long range Weapons becaus there is simply no way to even attempt to fit them when you need several Fitting extension mods / rigs to even get the guns hammered onto your ship.

I used to love Mega Pulse lasers they had really nice range for a CR type weapon but as time went on and evrything else started moving faster, getting more range or simply just started dropping bombs in my face I saw no way to continueing to use this weapon system anymore not when I couldn't even keep firing anymore from running out of cap charges not even half way thrue a fight?!?

I can see how this must be confusing whene everyone is running around with Tier 3 BCs (or attack bc or w/e) are using these weapons (well not Tachyons i'm sure not even oracles can fit them with out a reactor control or 5) but if it really takes a mutch smaller hull with alot more versatility vs EHP to deploy these weapons system then I guess we're all just not using them the right way?
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#564 - 2013-04-10 07:25:00 UTC
Amarr, my second favorite race :) Prior to the changes my verdict was that Amarr only need minor changes. As it happens, the changes aren't that minior at all. Let's see it ship by ship:

Overall
Same as with all battleships, I had hoped for an ehp increase to make them the wall that the battleships are supposed to be. As it stands, sig/speed tanking remains superior to battleships' soaking approach.

Abaddon:

Same as Rokh, I don't approve of this choice, but overall it isn't that big a deal. The Brick remains The Brick.

Verdict: average

Apocalypse:

Interesting, by my calculations, this gives Apoc's pulse lasers superior tracking over Autocannons and Blasters with null, except on tracking-bonused Megathron hulls. Capacitor bonus loss is a downside, but cap stability is overrated anyway.

Verdict: I like it a lot

Armageddon:

I see where you were coming from seeing the need for a drone ship. I would have prefered to see the Geddon remain a sort of laser/drone attack hybrid instead of "mini Baalghorn" that it's becoming, but overall, the ship seems like it'll still be fun to fly.

Verdict: acceptable



Antimatter Launcher wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Apocalypse:
Signature radius: 380(-20)

Armageddon:
Signature radius: 450 (+80)


not realistic.

new players will be confused if they compare the ship size with the signature..


Sig has nothing to do with ship size.
Kinraka
Things To Do...
#565 - 2013-04-10 07:36:09 UTC
i dont like it how blobs will now have these ridiculous neut geddons to deal with kiting gangs
to get within point range on a normal ship you will be neuted dry and dead in the water
so you will absolutely need tackle recons (i hate that)

neut bonus, or neut cap use

quote from meridith akesia

would make small gangs retardly difficult without tackle recons

it should be a bonus to amount, cpu powergrid use or cap use

[u]Sheep shagger from way back [/u]

Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#566 - 2013-04-10 08:00:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
With these new roles in mind, we will be adjusting hitpoint amounts for all combat battleships near the former tier 3 hitpoint numbers, while the attack hulls will sit closer to the former tier 2s. As with other ship classes, attack battleships will be faster, more agile, and will focus more on damage application and projection than their combat counterparts.


CCP Rise wrote:

Apocalypse:

[snip] It will also be Amarr's Attack battleship,[snip]

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000(-211) / 6800(-700) / 7000(+359)

So it has the same HP as the old tier 2s... Except that's what it had before, I'm not getting it.
I'm unsure about the cap use bonus and the reduction in cap - but we'll see how it behaves.

CCP Rise wrote:
Armageddon:

[snip]What we've done here is make the Armageddon an echo to the new dragoon destroyer. It makes sense for Amarr to have a battleship variation that rewards players who've trained for dragoon -> arbitrator -> prophecy,[snip]


CCP Rise wrote:
Firstly, one had to have drones, and the Armageddon already did.

None of them need drones surely? That's the role of the tracking disrupting BS which, supposedly, was going to be introduced in the Disruption role later on.
The previous thinking was that the Amarr BS were reasonably OK with regard to Tiericide wasn't it? What's changed?
Luscius Uta
#567 - 2013-04-10 08:32:00 UTC
I don't like resistance nerfs on Abaddon and Rokh. Yes, it's the best bonus that a T1 ship could have, but that should be compensated by not pairing it with a damage bonus (already done with Rokh, so Abaddon could have 10% bonus per level to either cap usage or optimal range). Also, Battleship skill is a long one and with BS V soon being removed as a prerequisite for caps, resistance nerfs on Rokh and Abaddon is adding insult to injury to people who trained Amarr or Caldari Battleship V. why sacrifice a month od training (unless you're one of those people with 100+ million skillpoints) to have same resists that Prophecy and Ferox have with Battlecruisers IV?

To comment on two other ships:

Apocalypse - somewhat weird combination of bonuses (for a T1 ship). Is it going to be a brawler, sniper, or it's gonna be fail at both?

Armageddon - will be better in PvP than a neut Domi, but I can see a lot of Bhaalgorns owners station-spinning their ships in future since they will not be worth the risk to PvP in anymore.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#568 - 2013-04-10 08:40:28 UTC
PavlikX wrote:
...2. Leave Apoc alone, or change new tracking bonus with something different. Something coordinated with optimal bonus. Probably damage +5% per level...

Tracking synergizes with range like coffee does with chocolate or cinnamon with apples .. at range tracking is irrelevant due to relative transversal of target being lower, while reverse applies close in .. the range/tracking combo is something I have wanted since forever but up until now tracking has been exclusive to Gallente/Minmatar so actually quite surprised (not really, homogenization uber alles Smile) they want to do it.

Effect: Expands the sphere of doom projected by the Apoc to include the 5-25km band
Gordon Esil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#569 - 2013-04-10 08:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gordon Esil
Current Amarr ships situation:

They are having issues with capacitor, <- that can be fixed with more skills (many skills to be exact)
That will lead us to few people flying Amarr ships <- which means it is a challenge, that makes you flying one properly proud of yourself and feeling that you have accomplished something

Doing ANYTHING to make more cap issues, less fitting scenarios, or stripping any of the Amarr ships of their current roles will just KILL the ships on this race, and better to make it NPC race for ships show offs only

CCP has the itch to do something to "balance" Amarr ships? give them more fitting capabilities (aka: PG and CPU)
Or make them less cap painful

Other than that it will be "ruining" the ships not "balancing" them

If missiles were brought into the game on Khanid ships, then that is not argument, because missiles were brought on completely NEW ships, not by changing an existence ship from laser platform into un-bonused missiles + un-bonused lasers mix to get a neuting range bonus + drones bonus

If that needed to be in the game, then simply a new BS hull with neuting/missiles (or drones) bonus will be the easiest thing to do, other than messing the current Amarr BS doctrines
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#570 - 2013-04-10 09:38:26 UTC
OP updated for some slight tweaks to the Apocalypse and Armageddon. Cap stability increase for Apoc and a powergrid tweak for the armageddon.

@ccp_rise

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#571 - 2013-04-10 09:44:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
OP updated for some slight tweaks to the Apocalypse and Armageddon. Cap stability increase for Apoc and a powergrid tweak for the armageddon.



slight tweaks is an understatement these lack of changes are sad i hope you respond to all the main complaints here especially the OP neut bonus

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#572 - 2013-04-10 10:09:13 UTC
So Apocalypse is now a nerfed Megathron. We are back to 2008.
Lunaleil Fournier
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#573 - 2013-04-10 10:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
Nevermind. Found my answer
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#574 - 2013-04-10 10:20:48 UTC
Gallente now has a hull with more, not equal but more, lowslots than Amarr .. does not compute!

High to low on Abaddon or Armageddon, take your pick.
Rina Kondur
Origin.
Black Legion...
#575 - 2013-04-10 10:28:34 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Gallente now has a hull with more, not equal but more, lowslots than Amarr .. does not compute!

High to low on Abaddon or Armageddon, take your pick.


Amarr have a much sturdier resist profile though. Dropping a high for a low for what I assume you want to use for tank would be terrible. And why drop an actual gun for a heat sink if that's what you're thinking?

Also these updates don't really address any of the problems people have brought up. Amarr will still suffer from a severe problem of cap usage.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#576 - 2013-04-10 10:31:04 UTC
Kerdrak wrote:
So Apocalypse is now a nerfed Megathron. We are back to 2008.


A Megathron that gets a 80km optimal. Or a 24km optimal with 2/3 of a shield Ruptures' tracking.

Who would ever fly that.
Mr Noo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#577 - 2013-04-10 10:31:23 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Gallente now has a hull with more, not equal but more, lowslots than Amarr .. does not compute!

High to low on Abaddon or Armageddon, take your pick.


Megathron:

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2)

What is this? Shocked

Why this ship have more Low slots than Amarr ships?

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#578 - 2013-04-10 10:36:05 UTC
surely if the Apoc gets more cap shouldn't the abbadon?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#579 - 2013-04-10 10:40:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Rina Kondur wrote:
Amarr have a much sturdier resist profile though. Dropping a high for a low for what I assume you want to use for tank would be terrible. And why drop an actual gun for a heat sink if that's what you're thinking?

Also these updates don't really address any of the problems people have brought up. Amarr will still suffer from a severe problem of cap usage.

Abaddon has a now decreased better resist profile, loosing one gun equates a 12.5% dps decrease in return for tons more options (including replacing the lost damage) allowed with a low while improving cap at the same time (drain from guns decreases by same 12.5%).

In the case of the Armageddon, the 7th high is superfluous as there is no way in hell of driving that many neuts (doubt many believe the gun slots will ever be utilized) without outside assist whereas the low can augment cap, damage (drones) or tank (lacks the Abaddon resist).

PS: Apocalypse is intentionally left out as losing a high in conjunction with the lack of a damage bonus makes it rather subpar .. even though the low could be sinked .. actually, include it in decision process.
Darth Felin
Monkey Attack Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#580 - 2013-04-10 10:40:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
OP updated for some slight tweaks to the Apocalypse and Armageddon. Cap stability increase for Apoc and a powergrid tweak for the armageddon.



Armageddon is still OP, it have bonused drones and can spare highlots to have gamechanging beyond-the-tacking-range Heavy Neuts.

Bonus to neuting range is strong, extremely strong bonus and it should not belong to combat ship especially t1 one. Can you consider change of bonus to neuting power? this is extremely powerful bonus as well but at least it is not game-breaking.