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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#581 - 2013-04-10 10:50:11 UTC
Apocalypse still can't tachyons, even with the extra powergrid.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#582 - 2013-04-10 10:55:22 UTC
Darth Felin wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
OP updated for some slight tweaks to the Apocalypse and Armageddon. Cap stability increase for Apoc and a powergrid tweak for the armageddon.



Armageddon is still OP, it have bonused drones and can spare highlots to have gamechanging beyond-the-tacking-range Heavy Neuts.

Bonus to neuting range is strong, extremely strong bonus and it should not belong to combat ship especially t1 one. Can you consider change of bonus to neuting power? this is extremely powerful bonus as well but at least it is not game-breaking.

Ever faced a Bhaalgorn? Neut power is vastly superior to neut range when you have the raw EHP to get to apply it .. +50% power would allow it to zero cap on cruisers with just two mods, BC's with three and most BS with 4-5 (in two cycles, 24s) ..
Downside of range vs. power is in expended cap, if it were to effectively save 50% of the cap needed to zero an enemy it would be unstoppable, so if you think it is broken now (which it may be, sort of anyway) then ....
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#583 - 2013-04-10 11:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: AspiB'elt
Dear CCP.

Can you explain something to me.

Amarr are very nice long range weapon (tachyon) .

But it's impossible to fit them on the ship.

You can put tachyon only on the oracle or Abaddon .

Can you explain why ?
Lady Vorax
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#584 - 2013-04-10 11:05:10 UTC
Powergrid tweak? Took away another 1000 pg on the geddon is hardly a tweak.....
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#585 - 2013-04-10 11:07:12 UTC
All three of these BS share 4 mids, 7 lows. You may have diversified away from lasers on all of them but you sure didn't shake up much else - especially in light of a Gallente 8 low BS. How about a Hyperion treatment with double damage bonus on 6 turrets for the Apoc. That further assists the cap issues and allows a slot to be reallocated to the lows.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#586 - 2013-04-10 11:27:57 UTC
Rynnik wrote:
All three of these BS share 4 mids, 7 lows. You may have diversified away from lasers on all of them but you sure didn't shake up much else - especially in light of a Gallente 8 low BS. How about a Hyperion treatment with double damage bonus on 6 turrets for the Apoc. That further assists the cap issues and allows a slot to be reallocated to the lows.


This is actually a very good idea.

That would help with fitting Tachyons a lot.

So either the Hyperion treatment, or reduce beam lasers PWG needs by 25/30%.
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons
#587 - 2013-04-10 11:28:37 UTC
Armageddon is the new Dominix.
Darvanile
Immortal's Council
#588 - 2013-04-10 11:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Darvanile
I hope CCP Rise reads this constructive feedback.

I think the general consensus is that the Amarr BS changes are for the most part not needed and unwanted. Every Amarr BS had its role, and preformed well enough in that role to earn a sort of mutual respect with the other BS lines. Yes the Amarr BS line was unfun to fly, and extremely repetitive given that all of them pretty much did the same thing in slightly different ways... but it worked and it worked well.

You have now taken the backbone out of our BS line up. The Geddon was a superb ship that served as an affordable "goto" boat for low and high sp pilots alike. Out of all the Amarr BS this is the one that preformed the most reliably and needed the least amount of change. While your proposed changes are nice, they step on the toes of alot of our other ships and again seem not needed (we have ships that do the same thing better).

The apocalypse has a special place in my heart. I started EVE as a mission runner, and this ship was one of the few that remained viable throughout my entire mission running career. It didn't really need a damage bonus as it was able to apply its dps without the need to burn into range like the abaddon or geddon. The second you enter the battlefield whether it be mission or pvp, you are able to start your dps, this in my opinion makes up for the lack of damage it gets. Its ability to serve as a dedicated PVE ship or sniper fit PVP ship is and always will be nice, your proposed changes here mess with the cap a little but make up for it with the speed and tracking boosts. (In my mind, the more the apoc can hit = the less it will need to fire its guns = the less cap it will need to use.) Sure this hurts the low SP pilots a bit, but then again why are you in a BS with low sp. So overall sound changes, but again not necessarily needed or wanted.

The abaddon... probably one of the most seen BS in large scale sub cap fleets. With damage and resistance bonuses this ship screamed to me when I first started the game. My first instinct was to rush into this bad boy and rain hell down upon anyone who crossed my path.... boy was I mistaken. With constant cap issues, a massive sig radius and not to mention it being a pain in the ass to fit, this ship is highly limited in what it can do. The one thing it does do well (which I have learned only just recently in my later EVE years) is large scale BS fleets. Touching on its ability to tank even just a little bit takes an already unstable battleship and forces it to collapse completely. Perhaps addressing some of the fitting or stability issues this ship has to make up for its resistance nerf is in order. Yet again... changes to a ship that did not need the ones you gave it.

What I as a dedicated Amarrian pilot would like to see done to the BS lineup?

Apoc - Bonuses remain the same, give it a boost in CAP size, slightly tweak the armor to be a bit stronger than what you have it at now. Done.

Abaddon - 100% damage bonus with 4 turret highs. give it a 30% drain and range amount to NOSFERATUs (no neuts). It keeps its 4% resistances. Increase the drone bay and bandwidth slightly to keep its dps viable. Done.

Armageddon - Give us back the old armageddon with a slightly better tank, take its utility high slot away and turn it into a mid slot. Done.

Tada, golden fleet is back in action, maintains the Amarrian way of life, makes each ships intresting and different to fly. You still keep your counter to kiting fleets with the apoc and abaddon changes.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#589 - 2013-04-10 11:54:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
OP updated for some slight tweaks to the Apocalypse and Armageddon. Cap stability increase for Apoc and a powergrid tweak for the armageddon.



You know when CCP Fozzie makes the updates based on discussion in a thread, he actually tells us what the tweaks were in real numbers so the player base can follow along in the conversation.

I'm sure just a few months ago you appreciated that amount of transparency from CCP and now we would appreciate that from you.
May Wanderdriven
The Driven
#590 - 2013-04-10 11:54:44 UTC
Rynnik wrote:
All three of these BS share 4 mids, 7 lows. You may have diversified away from lasers on all of them but you sure didn't shake up much else - especially in light of a Gallente 8 low BS. How about a Hyperion treatment with double damage bonus on 6 turrets for the Apoc. That further assists the cap issues and allows a slot to be reallocated to the lows.


THIS
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#591 - 2013-04-10 12:00:00 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Armageddon:

This is a fun one. Bet you guys didn't think my first two projects would be to slow down the Talos and throw the old Armageddon out the window! But! I think its the best thing for the race line overall. What we've done here is make the Armageddon an echo to the new dragoon destroyer. It makes sense for Amarr to have a battleship variation that rewards players who've trained for dragoon -> arbitrator -> prophecy, and with the neut range bonus, the Armageddon should be a huge payoff. As the Armageddon is falling under 'combat' it will receive a substantial hitpoint boost, sensor strength boost, sig increase, and speed decrease.

While we understand that this is a very powerful ship, it should not be oppressive. Hopefully it will offer a new type of challenge to fly and fly against. To anyone who is very sad to see the old Armageddon go, I encourage to you consider that if left the same, it would have been even more crowded by the Abaddon as a result of the price adjustment than it already was. Again, we look forward to your feedback.

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% to Drone damage and Hit Points (replaced large energy turret rate of fire)
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5)
Fittings: 13500 PWG(-3000), 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)


/facepalm
Double one.
Killed an othervise good ship, that were in need of just a few tweaks... I have no words.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Gordon Esil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#592 - 2013-04-10 12:09:19 UTC
Quote:
The mighty Armageddon class is the main warship of the Amarr Empire. Its heavy armaments and strong front are specially designed to crash into any battle like a juggernaut and deliver swift justice in the name of the Emperor.


I guess you guys need to change this description on the geddon as well, as it is no longer having "heavy armaments and strong front that specially designed to crash into any battle like a juggernaut and deliver swift justice in the name of the Emperor"...

it is more like a support role ship now (which seems it is going to be whether people liked that or not) Shocked
Blanche Lee
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#593 - 2013-04-10 12:16:44 UTC
Amarr empire do not need to learn the Gallente drones tech, Amarr battleship is to win by energy platform. And I think Amarr empire`s drone technology can not be better than the Gallente`s, also hope to be able to weaken the Amarr`s each level ships drone bay. At last, there are so many Energy Neutralizer ships in EVE, Battleship only need to fire to the enemy.
Each race has its own characteristics, if every race contains various weapon system, then there is no need to points race.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#594 - 2013-04-10 12:19:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonto Auri
Gordon Esil wrote:
Quote:
The mighty Armageddon class is the main warship of the Amarr Empire. Its heavy armaments and strong front are specially designed to crash into any battle like a juggernaut and deliver swift justice in the name of the Emperor.


I guess you guys need to change this description on the geddon as well, as it is no longer having "heavy armaments and strong front that specially designed to crash into any battle like a juggernaut and deliver swift justice in the name of the Emperor"...

it is more like a support role ship now (which seems it is going to be whether people liked that or not) Shocked

Also this.
If you are balancing your changes by the amount of ships in use, I have no words to describe your failure. Though, I said that already.

Armageddon fit the description AND OVERALL LOOK of the attack BS very well. Her light, slim profile just scream for pulses and MWD. As well as her bonuses.
Apocalypse is a perfect sniper as she is.
And both ships are iconic for Amarrian storyline.
While Abaddon is just a bastard of the tier. She never had a good purpose, neither she had obvious strength besides being though nut to crack (on par with Dominix). Now, please explain, why do you want to throw 10 years of the Amarr history out of the window? And who will forgive you for doing that?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#595 - 2013-04-10 12:21:27 UTC
Mixing up the Apoc with a damage bonus like the Hyperion so it ends up with only 6 high slots could be good fun. With some extra mids you'd actually have an Amarr ship that could be flown with a shield tank without it having a tonne of low slots to make it potentially tanky like the Abaddon. Alternatively you'd be able to fly it with a lot of tackle + cap booster, fit a MJD or some other utility, which would add some diversity to the Amarr Battleship fleet without taking away the current changes which I already like a lot.

(ofcourse with 6 turret slots it would just have to have that much needed model makeover ;))

Sure there is probably a good reason to not do the above, but it's just a quick thought!
Hulasikaly Wada
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#596 - 2013-04-10 12:23:12 UTC
May Wanderdriven wrote:
Rynnik wrote:
All three of these BS share 4 mids, 7 lows. You may have diversified away from lasers on all of them but you sure didn't shake up much else - especially in light of a Gallente 8 low BS. How about a Hyperion treatment with double damage bonus on 6 turrets for the Apoc. That further assists the cap issues and allows a slot to be reallocated to the lows.


THIS


The optimal range bonus is something really good on the ships and IMO must be preserved as a distinctive factor ( even the oracle do NOT have it )

Now , without the cap bonus i will like really to see a dmg bonus , as already May Wanderdriven said, 7 hi-slot / 6 turret tachyons capable with 10% dmg bonus Xlvl and everyone will be happy , or give it a 7.5% RoF Xlvl always with 6 turret Hpoints and another low slot to counter the cap issue
( and make somehow return the old Armageddon way back )

Hula
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#597 - 2013-04-10 12:31:41 UTC
Blanche Lee wrote:
Amarr empire do not need to learn the Gallente drones tech, Amarr battleship is to win by energy platform. And I think Amarr empire`s drone technology can not be better than the Gallente`s, also hope to be able to weaken the Amarr`s each level ships drone bay. At last, there are so many Energy Neutralizer ships in EVE, Battleship only need to fire to the enemy.
Each race has its own characteristics, if every race contains various weapon system, then there is no need to points race.

You're absolutely right, Amarr empire does not need to learn from foreign races technologies they already know well, even though they apparently didn't evaluate the potential of some up until recent years. But coming contact with so many diverse nations, having examples of such a wide range of successful applications of different technologies, experiencing so many challenges... Amarrians are proud, supercilious and self-centered, but hardly they are stupid. And if that means that it is time to get back to a drawing board and reevaluate some old technology, that was deemed not very valuable in the past, then it is time.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#598 - 2013-04-10 12:32:29 UTC
The 6 turret idea is interesting. Lets have sth like 6 turrets+10%damage+range, with 7high 4mid 8low
so that is a 9 turret dps laser platform, lower dps and lower mobility than oracle, but better tank and range.

and a new beam platform? right?
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#599 - 2013-04-10 12:33:32 UTC
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:
6 turret tachyons capable with 10% dmg bonus Xlvl

That will never happen. It's just way too much damage.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Doctor Ape MD
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#600 - 2013-04-10 12:34:55 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Mixing up the Apoc with a damage bonus like the Hyperion so it ends up with only 6 high slots could be good fun. With some extra mids you'd actually have an Amarr ship that could be flown with a shield tank without it having a tonne of low slots to make it potentially tanky like the Abaddon. Alternatively you'd be able to fly it with a lot of tackle + cap booster, fit a MJD or some other utility, which would add some diversity to the Amarr Battleship fleet without taking away the current changes which I already like a lot.

(ofcourse with 6 turret slots it would just have to have that much needed model makeover ;))

Sure there is probably a good reason to not do the above, but it's just a quick thought!


Yes I think something along these lines is a very good idea. It's like somehow on the way from battlecruisers (oracle) to battleships the amarr forgot how to effectively design a laser platform (at least the Sansha remembered when they made the Nightmare).