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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#1521 - 2011-10-27 15:13:24 UTC
Kevin Thoughts wrote:
I'm a relatively new player, being on EVE for a few months now. I've recently grown to the point where PI has become possible for me. I enjoy it a lot, even wrote a newbies guide to PI that got reasonable reviews (http://www.kevinsthoughts.com/?p=435).

I have a few concerns:

1) Is the "50% of all PI is done in high-sec" based on solid data or just an educated guess? Because...

2) When this goes live, PI in low-sec and below will be virtually stopped. Without custom offices, importation will not be possible, so grinding out P4 products will simply cease. I would suggest that Concord custom offices only be destroyed when a Corporation upgrades a gantry to a fully functional CO.

3) This is going to be really bad for small corporations focused on PI. I'm figuring to create the P4s needed to simply build a POCO will require 7 characters and something like 28 PI infrastructures spread over 11 planets. Now one player with 3 accounts could do this, but its more likely that a small corporation would currently take on such a task. The hundreds of M ISK needed to set it up is a LOT to us. That's OK, gives us something to look forward to - a reasonable goal. However, there is no way we could defend, or afford to hire mercs to defend, such an infrastructure. I would recommend that (3) levels of COs be established: Concord in High-Sec, Restricted in Low-Sec (Max tariff at 20%, can not block access, can not be attacked), as planned in null-sec and WH space. We CAN afford to build these - we have time - but we could never afford the billion+ ISK to buy that - and I suspect many a medium size corp would think twice about it given the risk. Likewise, we are too new to have the skills to fly reppers much less defend such stations. Was it really the intent to shut down another section of EVE to newer players to entertain older ones?

4) The comment that "little guys should stick to high-sec" was insulting. Been there, did that. Quickly moved to low-sec for yields. Doing so was a great "coming of age" stepping stone for me and in fact resulted in my creation of a 3rd account. Never would have done that if restricted to high-sec.

Overall concerned about the slow decline in pilot numbers I think I see happening. EVE has very few things players a few months old can do successfully. The game needs more of these "semi-new" player areas, not less. As planned, this patch will tell us again "Sorry... unless your a lifer here in a huge corp, this is not for you".


1. IIRC, CCP Omen floated this number.

2. True, until there are sufficient PCO's produced and anchored in Eve. It's almost universally thought to be a very lazy and poor plan at implementing this to just remove the existing CO's. There has been several suggestions to ease the transition, no response from CCP as of yet.

3. You can easily but P4 products or components used to make them on the markets. I do it all the time and after doing the math, my profits are better than trying to squeeze in a extracting another P0 material. I don't believe the max tariff of 20% in low sec would work economically. I considered the can't block access idea, but dismissed it because I disagree with it from consistency of game play standpoint. Can not be attacked doesn't achieve the goal and doesn't make sense in low sec.

I very much disagree with the comment that there is little a few months old player can do. There is tons to do, almost anything that a few years old player can do. The key is specializing in a career. A new player is not as versatile as an older player, very true, but to say new players don't have much to do is wrong IMO.
Sealy
The Huskarl's
#1522 - 2011-10-27 15:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sealy
Well CCP you have made another thing that will make large corps richer and the Small and medium Corps Poorer. Are you the American federal Reserve by any chance?

So lets look at this.

A large 0.0 corp comes out and destroys all CO’s in the low sec systems around their staging areas.

They will then build their own.

They then put taxes up to 100% with only the corps that run these areas having access to the ability to change taxes.

This will cause people to leave making the planets grow with resources as over mining is no longer a problem.

Then when the Corp or Alliance want to empty the CO they change the tax to 0%, empty it and then back up to 100% in a matter of minutes.

The will stop all players using the CO except for the holding Alliance / Corp.

This means that the small / medium corps will move to high sec where it is not really profitable due to the over mining of the resources. This will then kill PI for most players.

If a medium corp destroys a CO and places their own, you will find they only do this once as they have no chance to defend against 5 titans 40 super caps 70caps 200bs and a 300+ Support fleet.

Ok a bit over the top with the amount of ships but Large 0.0 Corps can pull that amount quite easy.

You want to get more people into low sec and 0.0 but this will not do it.

Players can use the launch pad, but make the launch pad the same size as a CO making the payer have to decloak before picking up his stash and make it worth the risk of having to jump into a Lowsec / NPC 0.0

To make PI Interesting you should remove the restriction that you have to be a part of the alliance to place PI in 0.0. This will also make people go into 0.0 whom are not a member of the alliance and it then will make the DUST514 more relevant in 0.0
Now if you think this will not happen, lets look what is currently happening.

Goons (All Gallente Ice fields are theirs)

Goons (All 0.0 Incursions are theirs as they want the BP of the Super cap)

PL (All Amamake and surrounding lowsec area is theirs with all incursions as they also want the super cap)

Know 0.0 Scam BWF-ZZ place a contract for a courier service and once it has been taken raise the docking fees to a crazy amount which gives the Pilots 2 choices, Pay and lose money or cancel the contract and lose your deposit??? Ummm.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1523 - 2011-10-27 16:06:12 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Production of P1 and P2 commodities that are POS Fuel do not require imports if set up properly, and with the right skill levels - they only need to be exported.

P3 Commodities can not be processed up without importing P2 Commodities to planet - Robotics is the only P3 Commodity that is POS fuel.

For those that only view PI as a POS fuel source, there is little to no problem as PCO's will only be needed for production of Robotics. All other POS Fuels can be rocket launched.

Nothing really difficult here...



except when it comes to exporting any of the products from the panet. unless you will be able to transfer directly from planet to pos netweokds(omfg that woudl be awesom pos and pi sucks ass)

OMG when can i get a pic here
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1524 - 2011-10-27 18:24:31 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Production of P1 and P2 commodities that are POS Fuel do not require imports if set up properly, and with the right skill levels - they only need to be exported.

P3 Commodities can not be processed up without importing P2 Commodities to planet - Robotics is the only P3 Commodity that is POS fuel.

For those that only view PI as a POS fuel source, there is little to no problem as PCO's will only be needed for production of Robotics. All other POS Fuels can be rocket launched.

Nothing really difficult here...



except when it comes to exporting any of the products from the panet. unless you will be able to transfer directly from planet to pos netweokds(omfg that woudl be awesom pos and pi sucks ass)



Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.

Robotics can be exported the same at a smaller volume, after P2 Consumer Electronics and Mechanical Parts have been imported and processed into P3 Robotics.

So again... not alot of difficulty when 80% of your POS fuels do not need a PCO to function.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1525 - 2011-10-27 21:02:08 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:



Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.



Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats?

You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#1526 - 2011-10-28 00:13:11 UTC
Parts of this idea are good, but they really need to rethink low sec!

Issler
Sherksilver
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1527 - 2011-10-28 01:51:50 UTC
I think the idea is good - but the transition needs work...

Something like they did for SoV maybe. Right now - it is gonna be a zoo and a half come the day this hits... Everyone and their brother will be after the BPC or the Gantries themselves (Especially low, 0.0, and even peeps in wormholes). The fact that it requires faction to get the BPC is gonna be a major hammer to the pipeline, and will cause many, many people massive grief until things really stabilize.

Some sort of sane transition would be nice... - not gonna hold my breath tho...
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1528 - 2011-10-28 02:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:



Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.



Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats?

You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea.



Not at all... However, that is high volume production, and admittedly was not the focus on my statement.

Regardless, because you only need be in system, and uncloaked, to launch a rocket, as well as the fact that P2 processors even doubled up can only produce 480 units per day:

What are the Planetary Commodity quantities needed on a Large Tower for 1 day (Caldari at full CPU and PG usage, for example only):

Enriched Uranium - 96

Oxygen - 600

Mechanical Parts - 120

Coolant - 192

Robotics - 24


So, while you have to be quiet the sadist, it is possible, though highly inefficient, to use Command Center rocket launches with out a PCO.

What this means is that, in the case of WH Space, if a PCO was 'good time fun' ganked just to grief the WH occupants, that P1 and P2 production of Planetary Commodities is feasible. At least and until a new PCO can be built and anchored.

As for robotics, the maximum capacity in a Large Tower is 27 days and 3 hrs worth, which is only 651 units.

So if the tower is fully fueled, even if there is no PCO available it is possilbe to do daily or every two day launches of P1 and P2 for a month, before you run out of robotics.

That's plenty of time to get another PCO requisitioned, built, and anchored before the POS runs out of robotics fuel.


So again, you'd have to be a sadist to want to run a POS solely off of rocket launches of P1 and P2 commodities; however that's not what I'm advocating....

I'm saying for the part time PI Operator, rocket launches can be a inefficient but still viable means of getting P1 and P2 to market.

For WH residents, if they ever lost their PCO for making robotics (for example) or other PCO's for large volume planetary commodity production. They could suffice until they were able to re-anchor a PCO.

A Pain - ABSOLUTELY... but I'm not trying to say what's good or bad - just what the numbers tell us... and they tell us that with some adjustments we can survive the PCO feature.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#1529 - 2011-10-28 06:24:35 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:



Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.



Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats?

You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea.



Not at all... However, that is high volume production, and admittedly was not the focus on my statement.

Regardless, because you only need be in system, and uncloaked, to launch a rocket, as well as the fact that P2 processors even doubled up can only produce 480 units per day:

What are the Planetary Commodity quantities needed on a Large Tower for 1 day (Caldari at full CPU and PG usage, for example only):

Enriched Uranium - 96

Oxygen - 600

Mechanical Parts - 120

Coolant - 192

Robotics - 24


So, while you have to be quiet the sadist, it is possible, though highly inefficient, to use Command Center rocket launches with out a PCO.

What this means is that, in the case of WH Space, if a PCO was 'good time fun' ganked just to grief the WH occupants, that P1 and P2 production of Planetary Commodities is feasible. At least and until a new PCO can be built and anchored.

As for robotics, the maximum capacity in a Large Tower is 27 days and 3 hrs worth, which is only 651 units.

So if the tower is fully fueled, even if there is no PCO available it is possilbe to do daily or every two day launches of P1 and P2 for a month, before you run out of robotics.

That's plenty of time to get another PCO requisitioned, built, and anchored before the POS runs out of robotics fuel.


So again, you'd have to be a sadist to want to run a POS solely off of rocket launches of P1 and P2 commodities; however that's not what I'm advocating....

I'm saying for the part time PI Operator, rocket launches can be a inefficient but still viable means of getting P1 and P2 to market.

For WH residents, if they ever lost their PCO for making robotics (for example) or other PCO's for large volume planetary commodity production. They could suffice until they were able to re-anchor a PCO.

A Pain - ABSOLUTELY... but I'm not trying to say what's good or bad - just what the numbers tell us... and they tell us that with some adjustments we can survive the PCO feature.



Haha CCP is gonna read this and go 'yep we're heard enough, LAUNCH THE PCO BPO'S!'

'Also close this thread, it is no longer needed. They'll be fine.'

95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1530 - 2011-10-28 08:15:42 UTC
BTW, CCP really needs to rethink the customs office locations too.

Small gang and solo baiting became very messy when every planet got one (like they eventually will after this change too), so there was a very close but separate warpable grid for every planet, even those without belts. So people following a target will warp to the wrong place 50% of the time and any kind of splitting gangs became near impossible. The change was very bad for higher end PVP, please change this.

Either move the customs offices to the same exact spot as the planet or do something else. Maybe make the customs offices only visitable via probing and never visible on overview?

BTW one solution would be to only change things if a planet has 0 belts (because those are the best "baiting" warpables, one clear location), so make a rule where those will have the customs office in the same exact spot as the planet, but don't change anything if the planet has belts and thus several warpables even without PI.
Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#1531 - 2011-10-28 09:09:02 UTC
Raimo wrote:
BTW, CCP really needs to rethink the customs office locations too.

Small gang and solo baiting became very messy when every planet got one (like they eventually will after this change too), so there was a very close but separate warpable grid for every planet, even those without belts. So people following a target will warp to the wrong place 50% of the time and any kind of splitting gangs became near impossible. The change was very bad for higher end PVP, please change this.

Either move the customs offices to the same exact spot as the planet or do something else. Maybe make the customs offices only visitable via probing and never visible on overview?

BTW one solution would be to only change things if a planet has 0 belts (because those are the best "baiting" warpables, one clear location), so make a rule where those will have the customs office in the same exact spot as the planet, but don't change anything if the planet has belts and thus several warpables even without PI.


Hmm, interesting question.

You're at a planet with no PCO, and you anchor one or a gantry. Previously, there was 2 warp in spots for the planet, the CO and the planet itself.

With everything else, you have always plopped something down where you were and could anchor it. A POS gets dropped 130km or whatever away from you, but still on grid.

I would like there to continue to be 2 warp in points for a planet, the planet and the CO. The answers from devs have kinda indicated that you have a choice where you anchor a PCO. Maybe that's not such a good idea. I disagree with having to scan down a PCO to use it.

Another question that has never been answered by the devs... what happens to the stuff that a PI player has in the PCO if it gets destroyed? They have already indicated that the attacker gets no drops, and also that the size of the hanger in the CO would go to up 35k m3 I think. Depending on how often they actually get attacked, it may make no sense for a PI player to store anything in the PCO at all ever for more than a few minutes. It would also adversely affect PI itself, and the PI players only defense is to not use the PCO hanger, since they never get a email that the PCO was under attack.
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1532 - 2011-10-28 09:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: rootimus maximus
Meldan Anstian wrote:
I would like there to continue to be 2 warp in points for a planet, the planet and the CO. The answers from devs have kinda indicated that you have a choice where you anchor a PCO. Maybe that's not such a good idea. I disagree with having to scan down a PCO to use it.


There's a dev reply in this thread that says customs offices will continue to show up on overview.

Meldan Anstian wrote:
Another question that has never been answered by the devs... what happens to the stuff that a PI player has in the PCO if it gets destroyed?


Also been answered in this thread. If you blow up the office, everything in it is destroyed.

Reading: it's FUNdamental.
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
#1533 - 2011-10-28 09:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Max O'Deel
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Max O'Deel wrote:
So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters.
POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).

POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.

POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.

Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.

Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved.


POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.

We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.


And what about the small corps who are just managing to make a go of being settled in WH space do they just pack up and go or are you going to supply incursions in the WH so they may work them, or do you expect them to all leave the WH and POS undefended, in the faint hope they might accrue enough points to gain a BPC. TIME IS A MAJOR FACTOR HERE not the concept.
They are going to be unable to keep making fuel until these things become available again. the acquisition of which will take time to build and move to locations, which may take months if not seeded effectively by which time the POS may be out of Fuel.
so In WH the std Customs offices Must remain for a Viable period to allow for the complex problems accociated with WH life.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1534 - 2011-10-28 12:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
C'mon Nullabor, think this through. Simplest solution would be to leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (I like that better than POCO) is present. Hell just make some kind of isPcoPresent flag and allow or deny access based on that. If there's a PCO, you need to use that to connect to the launchpads. If not, the customs office is accessible and connects to the launch pads. Even if this is only for a three to six month transitionary period it prevents the crippling effects simply removing the customs offices will have. Forget about what you "expect" the players to do. Since when do they do that anyhow? Look at what's really happening in the game. Then step back and look at it from a broader perspective, not just that of a dev on the PI team.

The biggest thing you do with leaving customs offices in place as described is basically save low sec PI by giving hogh sec people something to fight for... namely access to low sec planets that corporations either set up a PCO as a denial of access tactic or set up at an exhorborant tax rate. People in high sec will have a reason to head into low and blow the PCOs to hell, allowing themselves access to the customs office until such a time as they can plant one of their own or someone does at a tax rate the high sec folks find worth paying.

You know this makes sense.

Wormholes also benefit nicely from this method... PCOs can be brought in as needed rather than making them a requirement to get immediately or their fuel supply is shut off. You're putting too much control over wormhole living in the hands of people you "expect" to be offering the BPCs on the market. I'm sure there will be at first, but the prices will be crippling... this is Eve, that's what people do. This chatter you're seeing about 'just using the launchpads'... look at the volumes of stuff moved in wormhole PI and you'll be forced to admit that's a load of crap, even if you're using that as an escape to convince yourselves you're not really breaking the system.

These PCOs have a lot of potential, they really do. But you're also seeing a lot of potential issues. It's far more important... or at least it should be... to introduce these in a way that benefits the game as a whole instead of focusing on a timeline. There needs to be a gradualness built in that allows the majority to absorb the impact relatively painlessly. One really bad decision that breaks a significant part of the game for a lot of people can easily overshadow for those people some of the great things coming at the same time.

Try and look at it from the perspective of someone actually in the game, not of that as someone that designed the system and has an emotional attachment to the initial design.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1535 - 2011-10-28 12:33:40 UTC
The simplest solution for the anchoring issue is going to be:

- Force the POCO to anchor at the locations of the existing customs office grids.

- If there is a POCO anchored and online, then that customs office beacon should show up in the overview.

- No customs office anchored? Then you should only be able to get to that location by using the right-click menu.

OTOH, I can see reasons why to do away with the 2nd warp-in point for planets:

- Probably makes coding easier rather then fixing the overview code to show or not show the customs office locations depending on whether they have something anchored or not.

- Gives more of a purpose to the planet's warp-in grid.

Either way, as long as the POCO is forced to anchor in the middle of the grid (just like POS towers), that will avoid most exploits.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#1536 - 2011-10-28 13:40:53 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
... leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (...) is present. ...

If you do that then there is a lot less incentive to build or destroy PCO's. It would make the expansion as worhtless as Incarna. CCP won't do that.
At best they will let the sale of CO BPCs to the general public start some time before actually removing them.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1537 - 2011-10-28 13:49:49 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
... leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (...) is present. ...

If you do that then there is a lot less incentive to build or destroy PCO's. It would make the expansion as worhtless as Incarna. CCP won't do that.
At best they will let the sale of CO BPCs to the general public start some time before actually removing them.


I disagree... but then again, this isn't an expansion in and of itself, it's a PI change. If they're designed well and worth using, people will. If people don't then the question needs to be asked "why not?". Did they fail to make them cost efficient enough for people to even want them? Is the storage space too small, making the customs office more efficient? Are they simply too much of a pain in the ass to be worthwhile, or do they actually fail to provide anything of value to PI over the regular customs offices.

If they build something good enough, people will want them and will implement them. If they turn out to be PI breaking pieces of crap, and they implement them in a way that pretty well breaks people's PI for a significant period of time (as the current method promises to do), they'll push people away from PI, bork up the market for all PI goods and have disgruntled a significant portion of the playerbase.

You could keep the customs offices in play for three to six months in null sec and wormhole space to give fair time to transition over. That would be significant enough to ease the pain and allow the market to fully absorb any negative impacts the "cold turkey" approach will have. I'd defintiely leave customs offices in low sec however... it gives high sec people a reason to fight for their PI, especially those that prefer to remain in npc corps.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1538 - 2011-10-28 15:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Joshua Aivoras wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:



Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.



Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats?

You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea.



Not at all... However, that is high volume production, and admittedly was not the focus on my statement.

Regardless, because you only need be in system, and uncloaked, to launch a rocket, as well as the fact that P2 processors even doubled up can only produce 480 units per day:

What are the Planetary Commodity quantities needed on a Large Tower for 1 day (Caldari at full CPU and PG usage, for example only):

Enriched Uranium - 96

Oxygen - 600

Mechanical Parts - 120

Coolant - 192

Robotics - 24


So, while you have to be quiet the sadist, it is possible, though highly inefficient, to use Command Center rocket launches with out a PCO.

What this means is that, in the case of WH Space, if a PCO was 'good time fun' ganked just to grief the WH occupants, that P1 and P2 production of Planetary Commodities is feasible. At least and until a new PCO can be built and anchored.

As for robotics, the maximum capacity in a Large Tower is 27 days and 3 hrs worth, which is only 651 units.

So if the tower is fully fueled, even if there is no PCO available it is possilbe to do daily or every two day launches of P1 and P2 for a month, before you run out of robotics.

That's plenty of time to get another PCO requisitioned, built, and anchored before the POS runs out of robotics fuel.


So again, you'd have to be a sadist to want to run a POS solely off of rocket launches of P1 and P2 commodities; however that's not what I'm advocating....

I'm saying for the part time PI Operator, rocket launches can be a inefficient but still viable means of getting P1 and P2 to market.

For WH residents, if they ever lost their PCO for making robotics (for example) or other PCO's for large volume planetary commodity production. They could suffice until they were able to re-anchor a PCO.

A Pain - ABSOLUTELY... but I'm not trying to say what's good or bad - just what the numbers tell us... and they tell us that with some adjustments we can survive the PCO feature.



Haha CCP is gonna read this and go 'yep we're heard enough, LAUNCH THE PCO BPO'S!'

'Also close this thread, it is no longer needed. They'll be fine.'



After a short mail exchange with CCP Phantom regarding the 'issues' list he has compiled, I have confidence that the previous legitimate issues raised in this thread, are going to be seriously deliberated.

Not to mention I haven't stated anything that CCP doesn't already know. However, once they release a new PCO devblog, we can judge how seriously they took our input.

None the less, I still stand by everything I have said previously that I am opposed to or highly concerned about regarding the current iteration of the PCO feature. And do not see my statement as a contradiction; just because something can work doesn't mean it should be left that way.

The focus now should be on the nature of PCO's in Low Sec, and the details associated with the PCO feature; such as P4 Commodity rocket launch capacities, and user interface issues (i.e. Tariff standings issues, etc.) -- I don't think anyone geninuely thinks that WH Space and Null Sec PCO features can be lobbied for any significant or fundamental changes...

Again the lynch pin region to make this feature tolerable 'is' Low Sec...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1539 - 2011-10-28 15:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Ingvar Angst wrote:
C'mon Nullabor, think this through. Simplest solution would be to leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (I like that better than POCO) is present. Hell just make some kind of isPcoPresent flag and allow or deny access based on that. If there's a PCO, you need to use that to connect to the launchpads. If not, the customs office is accessible and connects to the launch pads. Even if this is only for a three to six month transitionary period it prevents the crippling effects simply removing the customs offices will have. Forget about what you "expect" the players to do. Since when do they do that anyhow? Look at what's really happening in the game. Then step back and look at it from a broader perspective, not just that of a dev on the PI team.

The biggest thing you do with leaving customs offices in place as described is basically save low sec PI by giving hogh sec people something to fight for... namely access to low sec planets that corporations either set up a PCO as a denial of access tactic or set up at an exhorborant tax rate. People in high sec will have a reason to head into low and blow the PCOs to hell, allowing themselves access to the customs office until such a time as they can plant one of their own or someone does at a tax rate the high sec folks find worth paying.

You know this makes sense.

Wormholes also benefit nicely from this method... PCOs can be brought in as needed rather than making them a requirement to get immediately or their fuel supply is shut off. You're putting too much control over wormhole living in the hands of people you "expect" to be offering the BPCs on the market. I'm sure there will be at first, but the prices will be crippling... this is Eve, that's what people do. This chatter you're seeing about 'just using the launchpads'... look at the volumes of stuff moved in wormhole PI and you'll be forced to admit that's a load of crap, even if you're using that as an escape to convince yourselves you're not really breaking the system.

These PCOs have a lot of potential, they really do. But you're also seeing a lot of potential issues. It's far more important... or at least it should be... to introduce these in a way that benefits the game as a whole instead of focusing on a timeline. There needs to be a gradualness built in that allows the majority to absorb the impact relatively painlessly. One really bad decision that breaks a significant part of the game for a lot of people can easily overshadow for those people some of the great things coming at the same time.

Try and look at it from the perspective of someone actually in the game, not of that as someone that designed the system and has an emotional attachment to the initial design.



I agree PCO's should not be wiped off the server! But there should only be one Custom's Office at any one time.

However, sadly CCP Nullabor only does coding, not design... have to try to get CCP Phantom's or CCP Omen's attention.

Imo, experienced PI Operators should develop legtimate and rational arguements that address issues within the context of the proposed feature, rather than waste their intelectual acumen on irrational arguements that obviously will never be designed and coded for...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
#1540 - 2011-10-28 17:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Max O'Deel
Matalino wrote:
Max O'Deel wrote:
POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).
Your corp can tax PI like you would tax rat bounties, or you make PI free for your corp/allies. Either way your corp gets to keep ISK that would otherwise go down a sink.

Max O'Deel wrote:
POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.
You have 24-47 hours to form your defence. There is little point in defending the POCO before it comes out of reinforcement. You have the defensive advantage with the WH being your home territory while the attackers must setup fresh logistics so that they can attack on two different days.

Max O'Deel wrote:
POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
Buy the POCO BPC's through contracts or buy the POCO's from the market. This is the same as any other commodity. There are so many different ways that items are seeded that it is impractical for anyone to get everything they want directly from its source. If the prices for POCO BPC's are "too high", then players will migrate towards running Incursions/Faction Warfare until the price is driven down. This is the same as pirate faction ship BPC's being priced "too high", except that POCO BPC's will be even more accessible and therefore subject to faster price corrections.

This change certainly appears to favor W-space over low-sec. Depending on any further revisions, I will be looking at relocating my low-sec PI operations to W-space.


I thought so from your comments you have never owned or managed a POS in WH space, from your attitude and comments you have little or poor concept of the mechanics involved in operating one in that environment.
If you had you would not be so stupid in commenting on the BPC aspect as you did.
1st BPC seeded to market (NOT BPO note) qty of runs per copy still not defined, TIME needed to acquire said BPC then Build time Material acquisition time Logistics time to access and move to a WH some very expensive and initially desirable stuff. All the while your POS is eating fuel you can no longer produce.

If I took your car off you one day then the next said ah you can go find a Blue Print and a Manual to make one it might cost you 20 or 30 grand then go buy the parts you need to make your new car, and when you have done that you have to haul it through war torn Afghanistan to get it home safe
And if you’re not back home in time I destroy your home because your cant fuel your house, I am sure you and your family will be ecstatic. I am sure you can now see the analogy, and your sad comment.

2nd when you live in a WH the thing closes after a period of time and an exit has to be rescanned from the INSIDE this often leads simply to another WH and another or LOW sec or NULL sec. Where they, in my experience are occupied by very unfriendly guys bent on protecting their assets (quite rightly so, same as we do) and they take very unkindly to strangers suddenly appearing and treat them as a threat (shoot first ask questions later) not very useful to you getting your 500mils worth of POCO's in to your own WH of course there is a 30/40% chance of a hisec access usually via one or more occupied WH,s and more often than not we found them to be on average 12 to 27 jumps from a home empire station. So with no way to predict where in EVE it will exit to you cannot plan to have the stuff nearby.

3rd POS,s run on fuel when it runs out they are dead yes we keep a stock in reserve as most sensible folks do however that can only last a finite time if you cannot replace those reserves fast enough. BPC's which will be stupidly priced perhaps for some 3-6 months may be beyond the reach of the smaller corps to obtain and in time to save their POS, s.
NOT all corps out there are Mega ones that are super rich and have membership overflow, some are small guys who have invested allot of isk, to try and make a go of it and are swept aside by a good concept not thought out fully.
I invite you to go buy you tower set it up with perhaps a 3 to 4 hundred mills ISK worth of wepons and other modules you will need, drag say 4 mates in with you to manage a C4 WH youv'e just discovered haul your fuel in make sure you don’t exceed the mass of th WH entrance exit doing all that, oh and don’t forget good scanning ships a couple of alts to stay in it if and when you go out, plus PVP and other ships. THEN tell me you think POCO's as they are going to be in WH at SUCH SHORT NOTICE is a good idea. so until then STFU.

I say again the concept is a good one it is just not thought out correctly. as it applies to WH space.