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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

First post First post
Author
Jimmy Watson
Section 5
#1481 - 2011-10-26 13:29:27 UTC
Well I've read all the posts......

So whats next?

Going to sell all my stuff to pay for Gantrys and POCO's first ( hope they don't get blown up or I'll be screwed )

Then going to the recruitment chan to find around 30-40 seasoned PVP'ers to help me defend my new POCO's from the big alliance that has it's HQ in the 0.0 system i do PI in.

I'm sure this is the best plan, only other thing i can think of is to stop doing PI!

Splatacus
Cordata Enterprises
#1482 - 2011-10-26 13:40:56 UTC
Jimmy Watson wrote:
Well I've read all the posts......

So whats next?

Going to sell all my stuff to pay for Gantrys and POCO's first ( hope they don't get blown up or I'll be screwed )

Then going to the recruitment chan to find around 30-40 seasoned PVP'ers to help me defend my new POCO's from the big alliance that has it's HQ in the 0.0 system i do PI in.

I'm sure this is the best plan, only other thing i can think of is to stop doing PI!




a) if you read all the posts, congratulations, you gained 100 points. I stopped on page 60 and feel exhausted
b) I assume CCP will now analyze the - surprisingly constructive - feedback from this venerable forum
c) there are few really broken mechanics in their thinking and some that could be improved with tweaking but overall, I believe the consensus is that POCOS are a good thing for EVE

Waiting for CCP's update now. If I missed it between p60 and wherever we are now, my sincere apologies

Anton Stemenoff
Imperium Czochrania Lemura Spolka z o.o.
#1483 - 2011-10-26 13:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Stemenoff
alphaspecies wrote:

4: and as far as all the taxes from PI, sales, skill books, NPC corp taxes... just where does all this isk go?
i know its not just jet-canned into space... can i see an audit of ccp journals?

mon, it is a game, and the isk has to sink in vacuum to make it all turn smoothly... On the other hand - do you think you know where YOUR reallife taxes gone? ha-ha-ha. Lol

But seriously. Will you (I mean CCP) add import option to the command centers? Or my lil smart factory shall close imminent?
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#1484 - 2011-10-26 14:51:46 UTC
I've thought about this for quite some time, I think the best way would be to tie the tax rates to real market prices the same way that insurance payouts are tied to mineral prices. I don't know if it's feasible to do this in the time frame that is left, but it would be the most balanced approach. The problem with the currently proposed system is that the tax-rates (or rather the ISK values the tax rates are based upon) are fixed and won't react to any changes PI products are bound to go through. It's hard to predict on what price P[x] materials are going to settle on after these changes, or how volatile/stable those prices are going to be.

There have been numbers floating around correlating proposed P0-P4 taxes to their current approx. market value or try to correlate it with m3. For easier reference, here are the proposed (100%) tax values per item. Also given are the approx % of market values of such an item. Market prices are rough averages over all items in the group BEFORE the recent changes were announced:
  • P4: 1 mil; 133 % of 750k
  • P3: 12k; 25% of 45K
  • P2: 180; 3% of 6K
  • P1: 15.2: 6% of 350
  • P0: 2: 66% of 3 (but who in their right mind wouldn't turn these into P1 first?)

  • Clearly there is quite a difference between the groups. This might have been to some degree intentional, since you're gonna export and (re)import P1-P3 much more than P0 (generally not exported or imported) or P4 (only exported). I would still speculate though that CCP has underestimated the price at which P1 & P2 would settle at, initially intending the tax to be a higher percentage of final market value (keep in mind that current taxes are only 1/20 of those values!).

    My proposal would be to set the 100% tax value to something that is read from the market. Like all transaction (not orders!) from the last 3 months (global, over all regions) from a specific category are averaged and then a certain percentage is set as that 100% mark. For example 50% for P0 and P4 and 25% for the others (reflecting their more frequently required im-/export). This should solve the problem with taxed having ridiculous values compared to the actual market value permanently, not just for the current market situation.

    A lot of tweaking can be done with this, like use weighted averages based on transactional volume. This would give anything that is used as POS fuel more weight than other products since the by far biggest usage (in raw amount) for PI products is obviously POS fuel (anyone doubting this check market volumes yourself).
    Scrapyard Bob
    EVE University
    Ivy League
    #1485 - 2011-10-26 15:02:57 UTC
    Creat Posudol wrote:
    I've thought about this for quite some time, I think the best way would be to tie the tax rates to real market prices the same way that insurance payouts are tied to mineral prices.


    The issue would be that CCP lags a lot when it comes to updating those mineral price indexes. As I understand it, it is not automatic, so it only gets updated every few months. They would need to commit to updating the price index of all PI goods much more frequently (weekly or monthly). Plus, I'm not sure they would do so since PI goods aren't used to commit insurance fraud (which is why mineral prices used to calculate insurance finally got adjusted).

    Anyone know when the last time that CCP updated the mineral prices used to determined insurance? I suspect it only happens when they update the central tables and distributed new data tables to the clients?

    (And +1 for another source showing that existing P1/P2 tariffs are too low and P4 is currently too high.)
    rootimus maximus
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1486 - 2011-10-26 16:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: rootimus maximus
    alphaspecies wrote:
    i've got a few questions..


    1. Hopefully not.
    2. Hopefully not.
    3. I'm not even remotely qualified to talk about the exact percentages that should be used, but the idea of higher taxes is to make lowsec, nullsec and wormhole space far more attractive in terms of production.
    4. Look up "isk sink".
    5. Hopefully not
    7. IMO it should probably be a shorter cooldown, especially if they don't suddenly give you 50,000m3 launch capacity or something equally silly.


    Anton Stemenoff wrote:
    But seriously. Will you (I mean CCP) add import option to the command centers? Or my lil smart factory shall close imminent?


    This is very much needed. It's one thing to be denied access to the customs office, but if you want to completely deny a planet to someone you should have to bring enough force to accomplish the task.
    Kassasis Dakkstromri
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1487 - 2011-10-26 16:33:04 UTC
    El 1974 wrote:
    Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
    Silva Krell wrote:
    So can these structures be unanchored? Any news on this yet?

    CVA might let neuts use our planets. That is for my leadership to decide, but I am sure it will be considered seriously if it is an option.


    It's reasonable to presume that like POS's they could be unanchored atm.

    However, what we don't have any idea about is once the gantry is upgraded, whether or not it can be unanchored after it has been upgraded?

    I've been thinking about this. Anchorable items like POSes and secure containers can be unanchored. Upgradeable structures cannot. I asume this is precisely why CCP made the CO a structure that needs to be upgraded. CCP prioritizes provoking combat over PI.


    I would agree, but hopefully we can get confirmation from Team Pi that Upgraded PCO's are not unanchorable?

    In my opinion, CCP views hi sec as the solution; meaning, PI will continue with PI Operators simply importing for final assembly to a hi sec NPC-CO.

    Yes prices will go up, I know I'm not going to eat the increased tariff fees; but PI will none the less continue.

    This then makes activity in low sec voluntary and consensual. And while I still believe low sec should have hybridized PCO's, one can only presume from CCP's stand point that they aren't forcing anyone into making imports to low sec planets - that it is player choice.

    For myself, I planned ahead with DUST 514 in mind, and intentionally set up my planets in low sec to only be P2 exporters; with no imports in low sec. Therefore, I will only be effected by the increased tariffs. However I am betting that metrics will show that out of low sec PI Operators, a large majority conduct P3 and especially P4 production in hi sec near their low sec export planets.

    So, as CCP Omen has clearly stated in this thread, this is a political tool and intended to create greater player interaction -

    But in addition to laying preparations for DUST 514, I am beginning to also wonder whether or not this is also an effort to consolidate PI colonies, so they are not as diffused in New Eden? (But it's only a thought on my part)

    In the end, I hope that our constructive feedback will help shape the feature in such a way that it will be tolerable and prevent PI Operators from giving up on their PI colonies...

    CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

    Kassasis Dakkstromri
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1488 - 2011-10-26 16:39:32 UTC
    Anton Stemenoff wrote:
    alphaspecies wrote:

    4: and as far as all the taxes from PI, sales, skill books, NPC corp taxes... just where does all this isk go?
    i know its not just jet-canned into space... can i see an audit of ccp journals?

    mon, it is a game, and the isk has to sink in vacuum to make it all turn smoothly... On the other hand - do you think you know where YOUR reallife taxes gone? ha-ha-ha. Lol

    But seriously. Will you (I mean CCP) add import option to the command centers? Or my lil smart factory shall close imminent?



    Guaranteed there will not be import to Command Center

    Colony installations are not being fundamentally altered for this feature change. However hopefully we can get a congruent P4 Commodity Rocket launch capability of 25 P4 items per day or something like that, which would be linked to skills.

    CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

    Meldan Anstian
    The Night Crew
    The Night Crew Alliance
    #1489 - 2011-10-26 17:06:06 UTC
    The discussion about a tax based on a fixed tariff figure vs a tax in some way based on changing PI prices gave me another idea.

    Instead of a percentage, that affects all imports and exports equally, why not be able to set a ISK tax on the item itself?

    So instead of configuring a percentage, you configure a ISK amount. You want to export a P1 item, it's 10 ISK per unit. A P2 item is 50 ISK per unit. I'm just picking numbers out of the air, there is no analysis backing them up at this point.

    I don't know if the mentioned insurance rates adjust automatically or if CCP has to do something to adjust them, but I can easily see where that task would get neglected. Having players entirely responsible for the taxes makes sense to me,rather than having CCP figure out a number that doesn't get changed until it's obvious there is a huge problem with it.

    I'm thinking of 1 of 2 possible methods of tax configuration. You set a tax rate for import/export of each level of PI product as a whole. So all P0 goods are taxed at X ISK per unit, all P1 are taxed at X ISK per unit, etc.

    The other possibility is that you can set a tax rate per good individually. Toxic metals and industrial fibers are both P1 goods. Perhaps my null space corp/alliance is using the toxic metals to fuel POS's, and industrial fibers have no use for fueling a POS. So why would I not tax toxic metals at 1000 ISK per unit and discourage ninja PI of toxic metals saving those resources for my corps use, but set industrial fiber at 10 ISK per unit to get profit from a good that I have no use for?

    Going a bit further, it might make sense that I only allow corp/alliance to use the PCO for toxic metals, locking others out, but I do allow the use of the PCO for other goods. So as a PI person, I could not use your POS to export toxic metals, but I could for industrial fibers.

    I don't think it has been asked or answered, can we set import taxes and export taxes to be different amounts? Is there a reason why would could not? The blog only shows 1 tax rate to be entered. It might make low resource planets more attractive to put up a PCO at. There isn't enough resources to make a decent profit with a PCO based on exports from resources on the planet alone, but with my low import taxes and reasonable export taxes, feel free to use my planet for manufacturing higher level goods.

    Ingvar Angst
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    #1490 - 2011-10-26 18:07:59 UTC
    At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple.

    Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

    Kassasis Dakkstromri
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1491 - 2011-10-26 18:21:59 UTC
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple.



    I have Rocket Science V Lol

    CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

    Kassasis Dakkstromri
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1492 - 2011-10-26 18:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
    I just had a very enlightening read of an article about DUST 514; which contained some relevant insight and quotes regarding this feature change:

    Quote:
    Dust 514 battles take place not in Eve’s star systems, but on a select number of planets. PS3 players sign in to Eve’s own social network and can negotiate contracts with PC players.

    For an agreed ISK bounty fee, a Dust mercenary could, for example, take control of a planet’s anti-aircraft weapon and fire at co-ordinated targets into Eve’s outer space – all in real-time.

    They could, on the other hand, be paid to take command of an entire planet so a contractor is free to plunder the area. Players will need to decide, and haggle, on objectives and rewards for themselves.

    ...

    “We won’t pretend we’ll know what will happen as we begin connecting the two games and allowing information to flow between both. That will iterate over time. But the objective is to make Dust 514 be significant to the world of Eve and vice-versa. So Dust players can call in air support or munitions from Eve players." [Thor Gunnarsson]


    I think one of the missing pieces of the puzzle in our thread discussion, is the fact that there are future features related to planets that CCP can not, or prefers not to disclose at this time.

    Case in point: PCO Defences - where are they? There aren't any .... At the moment.

    In videos regarding DUST 514 - E3 2011 as well as the video A Vision of the Future we see both the ability to fire into orbit, as well as a non-station installation that could well be a more advanced form of PCO - Orbital Elevator (Which will be further Corporate inclusion to Planets beyond just anchoring a PCO).

    I think it is fair, as regards PCO defense, to take a step back and try to gain perspective on what may be instore down the road that while Team Pi would like to tell us, they are embargoed from doing so at this time?

    It may very well be that PCO defense will not be orbital and stationary around the PCO itself, but planetary (at least in the near future)

    For myself, this revelation has caused me to realize that not only do we need to think like EVE players, but should deeply consider thinking like DUST players as well (ie absorbing knowledge about DUST and how it applies to us) And ultimately, while we absolutely should challenge and question CCP Developers, I think we should also moderate some unreasoned opposition instead with a rational and reasonable arguement, so that our criticism is constructive and genuinely sincere; and ultimately result in the best compromise possible between our community and CCP Developers.

    I also think, that this same 'expanded' perception applies to even more then just PCO defences as well...


    *(For those that care to read the full article - which is worthy of an entirely new thread - you can read the original article Develop - DUST 514 Interview: Chaning Console Shooters Forever

    CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

    Meldan Anstian
    The Night Crew
    The Night Crew Alliance
    #1493 - 2011-10-26 18:41:50 UTC
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple.


    We are talking about launching things from a command center into space. So yes, rocket science V would be good. :)
    Ingvar Angst
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    #1494 - 2011-10-26 19:04:21 UTC
    Meldan Anstian wrote:
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple.


    We are talking about launching things from a command center into space. So yes, rocket science V would be good. :)


    Dammit, I walked right into that one. Roll

    What would be wrong with leaving the customs offices intact as they are now, but shutting them down if someone plants a POCO? Then if the POCO is destroyed or removed the customs office comes back online. I think this would really enhance things and allow changes to happen at a pace the community and economy can handle. It would keep low sec PI fully intact, even for high sec npc corp people by letting them maintain what they have and, if necessary, they could fight to regain PI lost by going into low and popping a POCO someone put up on their favored planet(s). It would allow null and wormholes plenty of transition time without borking up existing PI, would remove the problem of not being able to import goods to the planet during the transitions, and frankly would keep a lot of it optional. Some people may choose to keep their PI running through customs offices, others may choose to take the benefits of the POCO and erect those.

    The taxes... ugh, I'll leave that to others to play with the numbers. But this, I can't really see a downside at all to implementing them this way.

    Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

    rootimus maximus
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1495 - 2011-10-26 19:39:42 UTC
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    What would be wrong with leaving the customs offices intact as they are now, but shutting them down if someone plants a POCO?


    Nothing, TBH.

    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    Then if the POCO is destroyed or removed the customs office comes back online.


    You can't have it both ways. Once the Concord one goes, it should be gone for good.
    Ingvar Angst
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    #1496 - 2011-10-26 19:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
    rootimus maximus wrote:
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    What would be wrong with leaving the customs offices intact as they are now, but shutting them down if someone plants a POCO?


    Nothing, TBH.

    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    Then if the POCO is destroyed or removed the customs office comes back online.


    You can't have it both ways. Once the Concord one goes, it should be gone for good.


    But... why?

    If you leave it, then there's a whole new strategy regarding these. The main ones I'm thinking of are the high sec people that PI in low, but the advantages go everywhere. However... the high sec folks, if they find an unfriendly corp has planted one of these on a planet they're farming, are screwed right now with the stated implementation. This we can agree to, yes? Basically, there's nothing to gain for the high sec people (thinking npc corp types) to attack that POCO... they still won't be able to efficiently do their PI.

    HOWEVER... if the customs office remains, they can now destroy the POCO and once again have access to their PI in full. It would incentivize folks even in NPC corps into low to fight for their rights to a planet, and it would incentivize anyone putting a POCO up in a contested planet/area to do so with rates that the high sec folks won't take offense to, and to allow access to them.

    I really don't see how anyone loses, except for corps that try to take sole and complete control of a low sec system near high sec. They'll have the possibility of having to fight off a bunch of pissed off NPC corp people... and they may actually like that.

    Everyone wins!

    Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

    Scrapyard Bob
    EVE University
    Ivy League
    #1497 - 2011-10-26 20:01:36 UTC
    If the existing COs in low/null/W are left in place, with low tariff rates, there will be no incentive to put up new ones.

    SovNull/W space COs should definitely go away - there's not supposed to be NPC infrastructure in those systems.

    Lo-sec COs (and NPC null) could stay, but only if they charge the full 100% tariff on everything (including launches). Which would provide financial incentive for someone to come in, put up a POCO and charge less.
    rootimus maximus
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1498 - 2011-10-26 20:03:32 UTC
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    The main ones I'm thinking of are the high sec people that PI in low, but the advantages go everywhere. However... the high sec folks, if they find an unfriendly corp has planted one of these on a planet they're farming, are screwed right now with the stated implementation.


    And they should be screwed. The whole point of this game is that if you want something, you take it by bribery, blackmail, skullduggery or overwhelming force. The highsec bears need to pick one or more of the above.
    Max O'Deel
    O'Deels Reclaimers
    #1499 - 2011-10-26 21:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Max O'Deel
    So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters.
    POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).

    POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.

    POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
    I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.

    Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.

    Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved.
    bilingi
    The Lancers Cartel
    #1500 - 2011-10-26 21:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: bilingi
    After all the excuses from the ass****ers.. It comes down to CCP and its supporters just do not want casual players in low sec or anywhere else.


    Good thing there are no other MMOs coming out soon.Roll