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Did CCP forget to re-bonus the Hurricane properly?

Author
Makavelia
National Industries
#21 - 2013-02-20 18:46:02 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Makavelia wrote:
why should a player like me continue to play eve?


You shouldn't, can I have your stuff?


When you can be more original. Conformity at it's worst.


Mister Tuggles
THE AESIR.
#22 - 2013-02-20 19:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Tuggles
With all of the nerfs raining down on the Minmatar I am glad I have not taken projectiles past t2 smalls. CCP is going way overboard when it comes to their balancing act. Great ships before like the rifter, cane, thrasher, etc, are now damn near the bottom of the pile in terms of viability vs other ships.

Oh well, time to train up hybrids and missiles.



Makavelia wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Makavelia wrote:
why should a player like me continue to play eve?


You shouldn't, can I have your stuff?


When you can be more original. Conformity at it's worst.





In all honesty if you aren't enjoying the game, but have time left on your sub just play the skill queue game. I think a majority of Eve players have gone through that rut. I know I have NUMEROUS times. Taking a few months breather from the game while doing a skill queue to keep your character progressing usually solves the problem. If you take a break and are still not wanting to come back it may be time to move away from Eve completely.

If you do quit and feel the need to alleviate yourself of your New Eden possessions I am sure I can find a good way to get them all blown up.
Tsai Ashitaka
Caidin Global Academy
#23 - 2013-02-20 19:19:26 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
Conformity at it's worst.




Said the guy complaining about his rifter/hurricane.
Makavelia
National Industries
#24 - 2013-02-20 19:50:32 UTC
Tsai Ashitaka wrote:
Makavelia wrote:
Conformity at it's worst.




Said the guy complaining about his rifter/hurricane.


Reading comprehension at it's worst.
Tsai Ashitaka
Caidin Global Academy
#25 - 2013-02-20 19:55:18 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
Tsai Ashitaka wrote:
Makavelia wrote:
Conformity at it's worst.




Said the guy complaining about his rifter/hurricane.


Reading comprehension at it's worst.


All the BCs are in a pretty good state right now. The cane went from "hilariously good at everything" to "well-balanced with other battlecruisers" and you're whining about how they've removed all reason you have for playing.

HTFU and deal with it. The cane is still a fantastic ship (it has the highest damage modifier of the battlecruisers, can be effectively fit for both shield and armor, fires cap-less/selectable-damage-type weapons, and has enough fitting for a utility high).

Jesus christ. The drake-whiners weren't this bad.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#26 - 2013-02-20 20:03:53 UTC
Tsai Ashitaka wrote:
The drake-whiners weren't this bad.

Give it a month. I'm not sure the Drake whiners are even done yet, and now they get to whine about the HM nerf when trying out the Cyclone as well.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#27 - 2013-02-20 20:21:56 UTC
The loss of a slot could be seen a mile away. That it was going to be a utility slot was also a safe bet. The slight loss if agility and EHP was also expected. The thing that does the Hurricane in though was the huge PG nerf. On most of the other BC you can now fit the largest tier guns and an impressive buffer tank.

Ferox - neutron rack, small neut, two LSE
Harbinger- Heavy Pulses and 1600mm plate.
Brutix - neutron rack, small cap booster, and MAAR or Ions, med cap booster, and MAAR + MAR2

None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed. Or how about a **** shield tank? (agility got nerfed so it isn't even that good anymore). You will need a small neut with your 425s. Taken on their own this is a nod that the Hurricane had it too good for too long. But every other BC got the equivalent of a grid buff- either via slot reduction and bonus change or directly.
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#28 - 2013-02-20 20:22:17 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Tsai Ashitaka wrote:
The drake-whiners weren't this bad.

Give it a month. I'm not sure the Drake whiners are even done yet, and now they get to whine about the HM nerf when trying out the Cyclone as well.

Drake whiner #473864835 wrote:
This isn't even my final form!!!!

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Tsai Ashitaka
Caidin Global Academy
#29 - 2013-02-20 21:16:39 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The loss of a slot could be seen a mile away. That it was going to be a utility slot was also a safe bet. The slight loss if agility and EHP was also expected. The thing that does the Hurricane in though was the huge PG nerf. On most of the other BC you can now fit the largest tier guns and an impressive buffer tank.

Ferox - neutron rack, small neut, two LSE
Harbinger- Heavy Pulses and 1600mm plate.
Brutix - neutron rack, small cap booster, and MAAR or Ions, med cap booster, and MAAR + MAR2

None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed. Or how about a **** shield tank? (agility got nerfed so it isn't even that good anymore). You will need a small neut with your 425s. Taken on their own this is a nod that the Hurricane had it too good for too long. But every other BC got the equivalent of a grid buff- either via slot reduction and bonus change or directly.


Why do you think the hurricane is the only one allowed to fit a medium neut?

You have a small on the ferox and none on the other two.

Downgrade it to a small and be done with it. You already have cap-less/damage-selectable weapons with the highest damage modifier (66%).

You're not entitled to medium neuts because that's how they were before. You need to have concessions like all the other battlecruisers.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#30 - 2013-02-20 21:42:08 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Cane just got beat hard with the ugly stick:
-less Powergrid
-Slower
-Less highslots
-Less EHP


It's still fine.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#31 - 2013-02-20 21:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The loss of a slot could be seen a mile away. That it was going to be a utility slot was also a safe bet. The slight loss if agility and EHP was also expected. The thing that does the Hurricane in though was the huge PG nerf. On most of the other BC you can now fit the largest tier guns and an impressive buffer tank.

Ferox - neutron rack, small neut, two LSE
Harbinger- Heavy Pulses and 1600mm plate.
Brutix - neutron rack, small cap booster, and MAAR or Ions, med cap booster, and MAAR + MAR2

None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed. Or how about a **** shield tank? (agility got nerfed so it isn't even that good anymore). You will need a small neut with your 425s. Taken on their own this is a nod that the Hurricane had it too good for too long. But every other BC got the equivalent of a grid buff- either via slot reduction and bonus change or directly.


Please post your Binger with HPL + 1600 plate.

-Liang

Ed: The only way I see this without a fitting mod is if you forego your cap booster. Which is like. LOL.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#32 - 2013-02-20 21:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Tsai Ashitaka wrote:
The drake-whiners weren't this bad.

Give it a month. I'm not sure the Drake whiners are even done yet, and now they get to whine about the HM nerf when trying out the Cyclone as well.

Drake whiner #473864835 wrote:
This isn't even my final form!!!!


Yeah the drake whiners were this bad and worse. It's just atht they spent a lot of their tantrum quotient already in the features and ideas thread. 300+ pages of it. Whereas the Cane chauvanists hardly whined at all there. The Drake people may revive their indignation. But may realize nothing has changed and Drake fleets will still abound.

Then came the rebalance. The Cane is ****, the Harby is ****. Prophecy is now rather good. Drake unfortunately was not further nerfed enough, and is still too good, both in HM or HAM configurations. The Cyclone, Brutix, Myrm are all rather stuck in a style of play (solo, very small gang) that is not the norm for eve. Then there is the Ferox which is better than those three but still sorta meh, at least until the tier 3 BC rebalancing/nerf comes.

If any ship deserved to be nerfed into the Stone Age it was the Drake. The Cane only deserved to be sent to the Bronze Age. Instead Cane -> Stone age, Drake -> still present day. Oh and Harby kept in stone age. Brutix and Myrm stuck in the middle ages (In my shiney armor and on my sturdy steed I challenge you sir to an honorable duel . . Hey that fellow is being dishonorable and overwhelming my nanobots with his seconds . . grgl ahrghhhhhh). But gotta love the new paradigm, Fat Space Chickens v Male Ducks.

So where is the "rebalance". It was more like a substitution of competitor to the eternal waterfowl overlord.Ugh

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-02-20 22:22:48 UTC
You can't always get the best of every update. Minny ships are taking some hits, if it gets bad at some point it will swing back.

But look at the bright side, you should already have gun/missile, armor/shield and drone skills. All you need is the ship skill and you can switch to whatever race you choose if your no longer happy with our ships.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2013-02-20 23:24:32 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed.
2% implant is sufficient, but if you drop to 180 II's you don't need that either.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Savnire Jacitu
Abysmal Gentlemen
We Didn't Mean It
#35 - 2013-02-21 00:01:03 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Please post your Binger with HPL + 1600 plate.

-Liang

Ed: The only way I see this without a fitting mod is if you forego your cap booster. Which is like. LOL.



I scrapped my capp booster for a duel webing heavy pulsing 1600mm harby. It works. I keep that one and one that has a cap booster and downs to focused with a medium nuet on the side. Still much love for the harby. Been messing with the prof, but waiting on my drone skills to work up.

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#36 - 2013-02-21 00:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Well, I've been mostly trying to compare the Brutix, Drake, Harb, and the Cane.

They seem to lend themselves to straight across comparisons better due to similar bonuses and slot layouts.

Playing around with comparison fits, trying to keep as many things equal as possible.

-Start with a full rack of largest short range guns firing highest damage ammo.
-3x Damage mods.
-Fit a medium neut, MWD, Web, Point and DC II.
-Full drone bay fit with largest drones possible, while still having 5 in space.

Then build a tank out of whatever space is left.

So, AC Cane firing Hail, Blaster Brutix firing Void, HAM Drake firing Kinetic, Harbinger with Conflag Pulses. All have comparable cap-life.

Essentially the Hurricane's advantage is the 'dual racial damage bonus' - but its damage profile isn't anything spectacular.
Originally, that was fine: it used the extra 'space' for added utility. Well, that advantage is gone now. Everyone has it.

It trades its second bonus to get roughly the same DPS as any other BC.
Then it fails in the tank category, where many other ships have a significant edge.

The Harb deals higher damage over a wide band of ranges, at the expense of damage type selection/cap use. Of course, it also has no reloading issues. Slightly stronger tank, slightly slower speed.

Brutix starts off looking average (except at short range) - but only if you try to buffer plate it. Factor in its large active tanking bonus (which doesn't penalize mobility) and it will easily close range with any plated or Caldari BC.

What is most glaring - I just don't see where the Drake suffers here. At no range is a Cane seriously threatening a Drake. A very slight damage edge at point blank range is snuffed out by the Drake's impressive passive tank. Things only get worse at longer ranges.

Last I checked, the Drake was far and away more popular than even the Hurricane.
Both the Drake and the Cane got a 'pre-nerf' several weeks ago.
But in round 2? Cane gets hammered again, while the Drake essentially stands pat, and everything else gets buffed.
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#37 - 2013-02-21 00:04:42 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Makavelia wrote:
why should a player like me continue to play eve?


You shouldn't, can I have your stuff?


When you can be more original. Conformity at it's worst.


To be fair the answer should have been "because its fun" though since you couldnt figure this out yourself you kind of confirm what he said.
Solomar Espersei
Quality Assurance
#38 - 2013-02-21 00:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Solomar Espersei
Wilkus, I don't know if I agree with you man. I think the Cane is going to be OK. The biggest problem I think is it seems a bit slow now and the big guns are tough to fit. You'll still see them in good numbers, it's just that you'll also see more of the other BCs. Anyways, this just in from one of the guys in Alliance which illustrates the Drake on Cane issue:

http://p0wnd.nl/kb/index.php/kill_detail/10586/

Right click and open in new tab.

I think people have always completely underestimated how good the ability to swap from EM to Thermal or Explosive actually is (kinetic is far weaker for ACs, though it's great for tracking) and that largely remains unchanged. This illustrates a larger point though, and one that seems to be overlooked right now. The drake's versatility got absolutely knee-capped by the nerf to HMLs imo. It's still probably OK for PVE (particularly Lv 3 missions and probably WH work), but I'd say the days of Drake Train by the bigger alliance are on the way out (likely to be replaced by the Boot and Boot Carriers). I'm betting Zanderia there was elated to find he was up against an HML drake and got the better of it pretty easily I would suspect.

Quality Assurance Recruiting intrepid explorers and BlOps/Cov Ops combat enthusiasts

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#39 - 2013-02-21 01:03:29 UTC
Solomar Espersei wrote:
Wilkus, I don't know if I agree with you man. I think the Cane is going to be OK. The biggest problem I think is it seems a bit slow now and the big guns are tough to fit. You'll still see them in good numbers, it's just that you'll also see more of the other BCs. Anyways, this just in from one of the guys in Alliance which illustrates the Drake on Cane issue:

http://p0wnd.nl/kb/index.php/kill_detail/10586/

Right click and open in new tab.

I think people have always completely underestimated how good the ability to swap from EM to Thermal or Explosive actually is (kinetic is far weaker for ACs, though it's great for tracking) and that largely remains unchanged. This illustrates a larger point though, and one that seems to be overlooked right now. The drake's versatility got absolutely knee-capped by the nerf to HMLs imo. It's still probably OK for PVE (particularly Lv 3 missions and probably WH work), but I'd say the days of Drake Train by the bigger alliance are on the way out (likely to be replaced by the Boot and Boot Carriers). I'm betting Zanderia there was elated to find he was up against an HML drake and got the better of it pretty easily I would suspect.


I haven't really had a chance to do any hands on with the Cane since the patch.
Have been in quite a few 1 vs 1s with Drakes pre-nerf and frequently they were near-run things, even vs younger pilots in ideal situations (being dropped at essentially 0 range by an Orca...)

And you are certainly seem to be in a position to do more PVP than I am right now....

That said, that KM shows what happens when a 'long-range' HML fit Drake boxes with a short-range fit A/C Cane.
I'd have to compare some Arty Cane fits to HML Drakes for a better, apples to apples comparison. (And that comparison might be favorable, I didn't play around with it on the new EFT yet.)

However, fit that Drake with HAMs and I see a 'Cane that must retreat well beyond point range - or explode.
Now, are HAMs practical in large fleet fights where long-range weapon systems tend to dominate?
Probably not, but I'm thinking more along the lines of 1-1 or small group contexts.

Of course, speaking as a non-Caldari pilot. Never flown in a Drake, outside of EFT.

I don't doubt that we'll still see some 'Canes - as many pilots are locked into one racial skill set.

Essentially, the Cane boils down to a strictly average (though type-flexible) damage profile, no comparative advantage in 'utility', a smaller than average drone bay - and below average tank. Its slightly higher racial speed is mostly negated when pushed into a plate tank.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#40 - 2013-02-21 01:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The loss of a slot could be seen a mile away. That it was going to be a utility slot was also a safe bet. The slight loss if agility and EHP was also expected. The thing that does the Hurricane in though was the huge PG nerf. On most of the other BC you can now fit the largest tier guns and an impressive buffer tank.

Ferox - neutron rack, small neut, two LSE
Harbinger- Heavy Pulses and 1600mm plate.
Brutix - neutron rack, small cap booster, and MAAR or Ions, med cap booster, and MAAR + MAR2

None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed. Or how about a **** shield tank? (agility got nerfed so it isn't even that good anymore). You will need a small neut with your 425s. Taken on their own this is a nod that the Hurricane had it too good for too long. But every other BC got the equivalent of a grid buff- either via slot reduction and bonus change or directly.


Please post your Binger with HPL + 1600 plate.

-Liang

Ed: The only way I see this without a fitting mod is if you forego your cap booster. Which is like. LOL.


Broke ass person's Harb:

High:
Heavy Pulse II x 6
Empty Utility
Mid:
Experimental MWD
Web
Point
Cap Recharger II
Low:
1600mm Rolled Tungsten
DC II
EANM II x 2
HS II x 2
Rigs:
Trimarks x 3

Valkeyrie II x 5
Warrior II x 5

It will run all mods for three minutes before shutting down. (Don't permarun your MWD.)
For a 1% pg implant you can get a small cap booster and small neut. (Genolution Set FTW)

Liang, we are low sec dwellers and we have our clones pretty pimped out. 905 Surgical Strike, 805 medium energy damage, 705 motion prediction. The Harb screams at 890 DPS conflag or 820 MF. My Hybrid Clone can push the Ferox to 820 DPS with Void.

If I set up a Hurricane with 220s the same way I can push 834 DPS with Hail. With 'damage selection' that number becomes 753. Now figure in a much crappier damage envelope and 5-10k EHP less for the Hurricane. The only way the Cane stays competitive is with a medium neut which it can't fit without a further hit to tank or gank.