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Did CCP forget to re-bonus the Hurricane properly?

Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#41 - 2013-02-21 01:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Cap Recharger II
It will run all mods for three minutes before shutting down. (Don't permarun your MWD.)


No. Just, no. No. The fit's fine, but just don't claim it doesn't fit without a fitting mod or implants because... just no.

Quote:

If I set up a Hurricane with 220s the same way I can push 834 DPS with Hail. With 'damage selection' that number becomes 753. Now figure in a much crappier damage envelope and 5-10k EHP less for the Hurricane. The only way the Cane stays competitive is with a medium Neut .


Are you armor fitting that Cane or something?

-Liang

Ed: Also, the old nano fit of the ages didn't really change, except that you now only have 1 med neut instead of two. Still even has 50k EHP.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#42 - 2013-02-21 01:37:35 UTC
Armor cane is a yes. The nano cane is too much of a glass cannon in my eyes. That play style is fine but I'd go the AC Tornado Route instead as a personal choice.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#43 - 2013-02-21 01:52:39 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Armor cane is a yes. The nano cane is too much of a glass cannon in my eyes. That play style is fine but I'd go the AC Tornado Route instead as a personal choice.


Looking at the numbers between Arty Shield Canes and HML Drakes, its still a pretty ugly picture, just as with a HAM vs AC comparison.

Canes are significantly faster, but seem outclassed in the 'tank' AND 'spank' categories. Especially 'tank', by a wide margin.

Result, Cane runs - or cane dies horribly if in scram range.

Seems like the Cane was pretty well neutered, relative to other BCs, quite possibly over-neutered.

I don't understand why the Drake got the kid-gloves treatment on the second balance pass though....

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#44 - 2013-02-21 02:30:49 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Looking at the numbers between Arty Shield Canes and HML Drakes, its still a pretty ugly picture, just as with a HAM vs AC comparison.

Canes are significantly faster, but seem outclassed in the 'tank' AND 'spank' categories. Especially 'tank', by a wide margin.

Result, Cane runs - or cane dies horribly if in scram range.

Seems like the Cane was pretty well neutered, relative to other BCs, quite possibly over-neutered.

I don't understand why the Drake got the kid-gloves treatment on the second balance pass though....


So once you selectively remove all the advantages of the Hurricane, you are left with only the advantages of the Drake. Also: the Drake is good at tank and spank. Welcome to 2007.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-02-21 04:05:14 UTC
Ham drake out DPSes nano AC hurricane.

Lol.
Kaal Redrum
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#46 - 2013-02-21 04:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaal Redrum
I know youre trying to make a point Liang - but what is it? Usually youre quite articulate, so why don't you elaborate on where you think the Cane 'still shines'.

Quote:
So once you selectively remove all the advantages of the Hurricane, you are left with only the advantages of the Drake


What are you going to do with the Cane's speed advantage? Its like the Firetail's speed advantage - what do you do with it, except run when rubber meets the road?

As I see it:

- Cane's just cant brawl anymore, so armor canes will find it hard to survive out there. Not just other Brawl BCs, but many Brawl Cruisers, which it would previously shut down and pwn 1 v/s X, cant be managed anymore.
[Not enough tank, Not enough 'relative' gank with faction ammo, Not enough Neut power to shut blaster/laser boats down]

- As a AC Kiter, its projection is worse than the Binger and HAM (!) Drake. Sure its faster, but that only helps it run away, rather than win a fight, since its gank (between 20-30k) and tank is worse than other BCs

- Arty Cane's, for their 3-4k volleys have a small niche in a nano-shield fleet doctrine, or station/gate camping nububus.

What am I missing?

Question is 'relative', sure, on its own, as a Combat BC, its still 'viable'.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-02-21 04:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Kaal Redrum wrote:
I know youre trying to make a point Liang - but what is it? Usually youre quite articulate, so why don't you elaborate on where you think the Cane 'still shines'.

Quote:
So once you selectively remove all the advantages of the Hurricane, you are left with only the advantages of the Drake


What are you going to do with the Cane's speed advantage? Its like the Firetail's speed advantage - what do you do with it, except run when rubber meets the road?

As I see it:

- Cane's just cant brawl anymore, so armor canes will find it hard to survive out there. Not just other Brawl BCs, but many Brawl Cruisers, which it would previously shut down and pwn 1 v/s X, cant be managed anymore.
[Not enough tank, Not enough 'relative' gank with faction ammo, Not enough Neut power to shut blaster/laser boats down]

- As a AC Kiter, its projection is worse than the Binger and HAM (!) Drake. Sure its faster, but that only helps it run away, rather than win a fight, since its gank (between 20-30k) and tank is worse than other BCs

- Arty Cane's, for their 3-4k volleys have a small niche in a nano-shield fleet doctrine, or station/gate camping nububus.

What am I missing?

Question is 'relative', sure, on its own, as a Combat BC, its still 'viable'.


Liangs just a troll.

Moving on.

Seems like arty cane is the only thing worth flying now.. but they nerfed that too.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#48 - 2013-02-21 10:53:45 UTC
Yeah, I noticed your HAM Drake thread, diesel.

While you may have been overstating its capabilities with the 16.5km range Rage Ammo a bit....

The Drake apologists KNOW it came out of this round of 'nerfs' smelling like a rose.
"Oh its only good on paper, but it really just sucks."

I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.

Unless you get the 'HML long-range fit vs AC short-range fit' mismatch - at no point can a Hurricane even threaten a Drake.

Greater mobility is only useful for running away, because there is no 'ideal range' or sweet spot.

The only place it can out-damage a Drake is point blank range, but the slight damage edge doesn't come anywhere near what is necessary to break that passive tank. The further away you move, the worse it gets. Outside of Javelin Range you aren't taking damage, but you also aren't pointing him - nor are you breaking his tank.

Earlier versions of the 'Cane stood a chance against the Drake - mainly because of dual Neuts giving you the ability to shutting down Hardeners and keep them off. Good luck doing that now, before your own sub-standard tank collapses.

Its no surprise that the Hurricane was weakened - or even that they overnerfed it a bit. CCP likes to overcompensate.

But I can't understand why the still-far-more-popular Drake completely evaded the nerf-gun on this pass, leaving it standing atop the heap.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-02-21 12:16:49 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Yeah, I noticed your HAM Drake thread, diesel.

While you may have been overstating its capabilities with the 16.5km range Rage Ammo a bit....

The Drake apologists KNOW it came out of this round of 'nerfs' smelling like a rose.
"Oh its only good on paper, but it really just sucks."

I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.

Unless you get the 'HML long-range fit vs AC short-range fit' mismatch - at no point can a Hurricane even threaten a Drake.

Greater mobility is only useful for running away, because there is no 'ideal range' or sweet spot.

The only place it can out-damage a Drake is point blank range, but the slight damage edge doesn't come anywhere near what is necessary to break that passive tank. The further away you move, the worse it gets. Outside of Javelin Range you aren't taking damage, but you also aren't pointing him - nor are you breaking his tank.

Earlier versions of the 'Cane stood a chance against the Drake - mainly because of dual Neuts giving you the ability to shutting down Hardeners and keep them off. Good luck doing that now, before your own sub-standard tank collapses.

Its no surprise that the Hurricane was weakened - or even that they overnerfed it a bit. CCP likes to overcompensate.

But I can't understand why the still-far-more-popular Drake completely evaded the nerf-gun on this pass, leaving it standing atop the heap.



Canes paper targets arnt drakes or other bs/bc.
Its not neccesarrily a fleet ship in the same way a drake is not a solo ship.

Strengths of the cane are the same as its always been, hit and run.
Hit targets you can kill , run from those you can't

There are plenty of frigs/cruisers and bad fits out there for your cane to ****.

The drake has been nerfed , its lost 500 base shield and has far less flexible damage selection than before.
In a fleet kin only at 10% per level is fine.

Solo that kin only damage is going to be a big problem.

So drake is nerfed harder as a solo ship and less as a fleet ship.
Canes nerf lowered it overall , but it is still one of the go to BC for solo / sg roaming because of its great get out of dodge.

Personally I would have loved a more mobile drake with lower tank and better damage selection to push it towards solo and away from fleet where it seems op atm.











Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#50 - 2013-02-21 18:37:21 UTC
Kaal Redrum wrote:
What am I missing?


A few of the many things that you're missing:
- The ability to run when the rubber needs to meet the road. Yes, that's actually important.
- The ability to run away and kill people who over extend (like that Brutix or Thorax that got 50km in front of all the Drakes)
- The ability to select your damage type
- Guns, and all the magnificent advantages that brings
- The ability to down size your weapons

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#51 - 2013-02-21 18:46:01 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.


It should not be a surprise that the Hurricane is not as good of a brawler as the Drake. The Hurricane's strengths lie elsewhere and demanding that it be equally good at all possible things is simply ludicrous.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#52 - 2013-02-21 20:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Liang Nuren wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.


It should not be a surprise that the Hurricane is not as good of a brawler as the Drake. The Hurricane's strengths lie elsewhere and demanding that it be equally good at all possible things is simply ludicrous.

-Liang


Here's the deal - there are plenty of scenarios where a Hurricane comes out on top vs a Harb or a Brutix. (the closest cross-racial BC approximation)

But I'm not convinced the Drake isn't still way out of their league.
And some of these shameless Drake pilots crying croc tears about how bad they got nerfed are pissing me off.

Lets see someone post a fit:

A Tier 1 or Tier 2 BC - that can destroy a HAM Drake 1 on 1. (and I'm not saying it doesn't exist - but I've not found it yet.)

One stipulation - WITHOUT artificially metagaming your tank against Kinetic.
Stick to plugging obvious holes and EANM/Invulns. You could be facing anyone, after all.....

Oh yes, and I mean 'destroy' a HAM Drake. Peppering it from 50km out outside of HAM range does not a KM make.

There are seven other BC's (not including Tier 3's). I've looks primarily at the Harb, Brutix, Cane so far.....

Originally I thought the Brutix could do it, but it appears I was wrong. Even slugging away at point blank range with VOID - the Brutix appears to go down in flames - plated OR active tanked - long before the Drake.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#53 - 2013-02-21 20:10:47 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

But I'm not convinced the Drake isn't still way out of their league.
And some of these shameless Drake pilots crying croc tears about how bad they got nerfed are pissing me off.


And I'd be glad to tell them how ******** they are too. And I have done so.

Quote:

Lets see someone post a fit:

A Tier 1 or Tier 2 BC - that can destroy a HAM Drake 1 on 1. (and I'm not saying it doesn't exist - but I've not found it yet.)

One stipulation - WITHOUT artificially metagaming your tank against Kinetic.
Stick to plugging obvious holes and EANM/Invulns. You could be facing anyone, after all.....

Oh yes, and I mean 'destroy' a HAM Drake. Peppering it from 50km out outside of HAM range does not a KM make.

There are seven other BC's (not including Tier 3's). I've looks primarily at the Harb, Brutix, Cane so far.....

Originally I thought the Brutix could do it, but it appears I was wrong. Even slugging away at point blank range with VOID - the Brutix appears to go down in flames - plated OR active tanked - long before the Drake.


I'd look at the Cyclone and Binger to start the conversation. The Prophecy and Myrm might also be fairly good choices.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-02-21 20:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Oh yes, and I mean 'destroy' a HAM Drake. Peppering it from 50km out outside of HAM range does not a KM make.


T2 Disruptor = 24km, at 20 that HAM drake does about 0 dps to your cane or has to switch to long range ammo for as much dps cane can do.

If your cane can't kill it, just move along and fight another day. It's exactly what almost all other BC's are doing already for years.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#55 - 2013-02-21 21:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Oh yes, and I mean 'destroy' a HAM Drake. Peppering it from 50km out outside of HAM range does not a KM make.


T2 Disruptor = 24km, at 20 that HAM drake does about 0 dps to your cane or has to switch to long range ammo for as much dps cane can do.

If your cane can't kill it, just move along and fight another day. It's exactly what almost all other BC's are doing already for years.


BZZZZ. Wrong.
Typical HAM Drake: 80K EHP, with 150 EHP passive regenerated/sec.
vs Weakest Resist, EMP: 68K EHP, with 110 passive regen.

Rage = 720 DPS at 17km
Faction = 630 DPS at 20km
Javs = 520 DPS at 30km

Typical Plated 425 A/C Cane: 48K EHP vs Kinetic, buffer, negligible passive regen.

T2 Hail = 800 DPS at 0km, 400 DPS at 10 km, **** all at 20km
T2 Barrage = 600 DPS at 0km, 300 DPS at 20km
T2 EMP = 720 DPS at 0km, 350-400 at 10KM, and **** all at 20km.

Arty Shield Canes fare even worse - and that is before we factor in missed shots due to tracking issues.
Best Round: RF EMP, about 400 DPS at 20km, assuming perfect tracking.
Outside of 30km, you avoid all HAM damage - but the Drake can sustain your fire for 15 minutes, then simply warp off.

If you think ANY Hurricane fit will top a HAM Drake, you are simply barking up the wrong tree.

The question is: can ANY Tier 1 or 2 BC, not artificially stacked up on Kinetic resists, kill a HAM Drake?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#56 - 2013-02-21 21:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Herr Wilkus wrote:

BZZZZ. Wrong.
Typical HAM Drake: 80K EHP, with 150 EHP passive regenerated/sec.
vs Weakest Resist, EMP: 68K EHP, with 110 passive regen.

Rage = 720 DPS at 17km
Faction = 630 DPS at 20km
Javs = 520 DPS at 30km

Typical Plated 425 A/C Cane: 48K EHP vs Kinetic, buffer, negligible passive regen.

T2 Hail = 800 DPS at 0km, 400 DPS at 10 km, **** all at 20km
T2 Barrage = 600 DPS at 0km, 300 DPS at 20km
T2 EMP = 720 DPS at 0km, 350-400 at 10KM, and **** all at 20km.

Arty Shield Canes fare even worse - and that is before we factor in missed shots due to tracking issues.
Best Round: RF EMP, about 400 DPS at 20km, assuming perfect tracking.
Outside of 30km, you avoid all HAM damage - but the Drake can sustain your fire for 15 minutes, then simply warp off.

If you think ANY Hurricane fit will top a HAM Drake, you are simply barking up the wrong tree.


A few comments:
- The 150/110 EHP passive recharge is at peak only. It's not even really noticeable until 40% shields.
- Rage doesn't go to 17km if both parties are moving. Both parties will be moving. Nor does faction go to 20km or Javs go to 30km. This is one of those "gotchas".
- I think he was talking about the kind of Hurricane that people actually fly, instead of the kind that people are QQing about and never actually flew. EG, he was talking about a shield cane.
- The Armor Cane has never been a good choice for taking against a Drake. Why you would have expected this to change is simply beyond me.
- You ignored suggestions of other ships (Shield cane, Cyclone, Myrm, Prophecy, Harbinger, etc).


Quote:
The question is: can ANY Tier 1 or 2 BC, not artificially stacked up on Kinetic resists, kill a HAM Drake?


They can. You're just being stupid.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#57 - 2013-02-21 21:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
As far as the harbie goes... this fits just fine with a 1% implant


lows:
1600mm rolled tungsten
eanmII
adaptive nano II
dcu II
2x Heat sink II

Mediums:
Disruptor t2
web t2
Small Cap Booster II (navy 400s)
experimental 10mn mwd

Highs:
6x Heavy Pulse II
small nuet II

Rigs:
3x Medium trimarks

68760 ehp, 708 Dps with faction multi, 597 Dps with scorch. Heated conflag is at 864 Dps.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#58 - 2013-02-21 21:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Liang Nuren wrote:

A few comments:
- The 150/110 EHP passive recharge is at peak only. It's not even really noticeable until 40% shields.
- Rage doesn't go to 17km if both parties are moving. Both parties will be moving. Nor does faction go to 20km or Javs go to 30km. This is one of those "gotchas".
- I think he was talking about the kind of Hurricane that people actually fly, instead of the kind that people are QQing about and never actually flew. EG, he was talking about a shield cane.
- The Armor Cane has never been a good choice for taking against a Drake. Why you would have expected this to change is simply beyond me.
- You ignored suggestions of other ships (Shield cane, Cyclone, Myrm, Prophecy, Harbinger, etc).


Quote:
The question is: can ANY Tier 1 or 2 BC, not artificially stacked up on Kinetic resists, kill a HAM Drake?


They can. You're just being stupid.

-Liang


Fair points on the passive regen, I realize it disappears once the tank is broken. These are estimations to see if these ships are even in the same league. To partially compensate for this I left out 'Invulns Overheated' numbers, even though Hardeners function while overheated much longer than opposing Weapon mods - and significantly boost the tank at that critical period.

I'm also being a bit lazy about drone damage, lumping it in with the turret Damage, as its a minor player for these particular BCs. Haven't gotten into the Myrm or the Prophecy yet.

True, if both parties are moving, the missile range could be less than 30km. Equally, the range could also be GREATER than 30km. It simply depends on who is kiting who. Drake running down a slower Harbi will have a slightly shorter range. A Drake running from a faster Brutix or Cane will have longer effective range.

I didn't 'ignore' other suggestions - or close off the possibility of others - I just haven't had time to EFT them myself yet.

I did ask for a fitting from...anyone else...but we've had no takers, just vague suggestions and assertions from the peanut gallery.

So far, the Harbinger isn't looking promising, though.

Also, I considered an Arty Shield Cane - but not an A/C Shield cane....yet. But Armor A/C vs HAM comparisons were so laughably lopsided, I highly doubt it will fare much better.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#59 - 2013-02-21 22:17:20 UTC
Ok, well I'm not sure what possessed you to start examining the armor cane considering nobody actually ever flew it. But hey, whatever floats your boat - I'm glad you finally caught up to 2007 fitting standards. After a bit more EFT warrioring you might catch up to 2009 when everyone decided that the shield cane was a great idea.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#60 - 2013-02-21 22:32:56 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
As far as the harbie goes... this fits just fine with a 1% implant



Nice Harbi. Appreciate you posting a fit.
Problem: it will not kill a Typical T2 HAM Drake.

If you are boxing at Imperial Multi ranges - (dealing 700 DPS), a typical Drake will be skullfking you with Rage Scourge Ammo for 720 DPS, and you are likely dead - as you aren't escaping the Drake. Hell, go Conflag.
Even ignoring the very significant passive regeneration of the Drake, you lose handily.

Now 20-30KM, at Scorch/extreme point ranges you are dishing out 600 DPS.
Drake is firing back Scourge Javelins, and dealing 520 DPS or so.

Your EM/Therm damage is well suited to shooting Drakes, and the Drake has 70K EHP (ignoring overheating) to your 68K EHP.
The Drake's passive regen makes it close, wiping out 115 DPS/sec at peak recharge rates. I'm inclined to think the Drake comes out on top here.

But even if we give the Harbi the benefit of the doubt - the Drake is significantly faster than your Plated Harbi.

It proceeds close distance into 'the bone zone', swaps to higher damage missiles and things get sad for you.