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Did CCP forget to re-bonus the Hurricane properly?

Author
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#61 - 2013-02-21 23:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ok, well I'm not sure what possessed you to start examining the armor cane considering nobody actually ever flew it. But hey, whatever floats your boat - I'm glad you finally caught up to 2007 fitting standards. After a bit more EFT warrioring you might catch up to 2009 when everyone decided that the shield cane was a great idea.

-Liang


You could stop playing the smart-ass and just post a fit. So far, you've merely demonstrated that you are good at making contrary, unsupported assertions.

A/C Armor Canes are what I used to crack PVE Drakes after an Orca swap. These Pre-Nerf HML Drakes were generally without tackle, but sported heftier tanks. Player SP varied, but the dual neuts are what usually tilted the fight ever so slightly towards the Cane.

If I wanted a Shield tanker, I generally went Burst Sleip instead of Cane.

Shield Canes are nice and fast, great for running away.
Useless for dictating the range of an engagement, however, because there is no 'proper range'.

-You get boned at 0KM firing EMP, (Hail is LOL). Blown off the planet by Rage Scourge in 80 seconds.
-You get boned at 10KM firing EMP vs CN Scourge or Scourge Rage, doesn't matter. Charitably trading equal damage, but in much weaker tank.
-You get boned at 20KM firing Explosive Barrage into stupid high resists, or 1x Fallout EMP at 50% output.

At range, Arty anes could move beyond HAM (or even HML range) and snipe away - but never score a kill. At best, merely drive the Drake off after a lengthy bombardment. (12-15 minutes with Tremor). On the other hand, if the HAM/HML Drake lands on the Arty Cane, its all over, and over quickly.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#62 - 2013-02-21 23:24:36 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Nice Harbi. Appreciate you posting a fit.
Problem: it will not kill a Typical T2 HAM Drake.

If you are boxing at Imperial Multi ranges - (dealing 700 DPS), a typical Drake will be skullfking you with Rage Scourge Ammo for 720 DPS, and you are likely dead - as you aren't escaping the Drake. Hell, go Conflag.
Even ignoring the very significant passive regeneration of the Drake, you lose handily.

Now 20-30KM, at Scorch/extreme point ranges you are dishing out 600 DPS.
Drake is firing back Scourge Javelins, and dealing 520 DPS or so.

Your EM/Therm damage is well suited to shooting Drakes, and the Drake has 70K EHP (ignoring overheating) to your 68K EHP.
The Drake's passive regen makes it close, wiping out 115 DPS/sec at peak recharge rates. I'm inclined to think the Drake comes out on top here.

But even if we give the Harbi the benefit of the doubt - the Drake is significantly faster than your Plated Harbi.

It proceeds close distance into 'the bone zone', swaps to higher damage missiles and things get sad for you.

You forgot the drones. Harbinger's drone bay dig the gap betwen the two.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#63 - 2013-02-21 23:32:59 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Nice Harbi. Appreciate you posting a fit.
Problem: it will not kill a Typical T2 HAM Drake.

If you are boxing at Imperial Multi ranges - (dealing 700 DPS), a typical Drake will be skullfking you with Rage Scourge Ammo for 720 DPS, and you are likely dead - as you aren't escaping the Drake. Hell, go Conflag.
Even ignoring the very significant passive regeneration of the Drake, you lose handily.

Now 20-30KM, at Scorch/extreme point ranges you are dishing out 600 DPS.
Drake is firing back Scourge Javelins, and dealing 520 DPS or so.

Your EM/Therm damage is well suited to shooting Drakes, and the Drake has 70K EHP (ignoring overheating) to your 68K EHP.
The Drake's passive regen makes it close, wiping out 115 DPS/sec at peak recharge rates. I'm inclined to think the Drake comes out on top here.

But even if we give the Harbi the benefit of the doubt - the Drake is significantly faster than your Plated Harbi.

It proceeds close distance into 'the bone zone', swaps to higher damage missiles and things get sad for you.

You forgot the drones. Harbinger's drone bay dig the gap betwen the two.


Nope. I double checked. 5x Hobs II in the Drake and 5x Hammerheads II in the Harb. As I stated earlier, I just lumped drone damage in with turret damage. Not 100% accurate when considering falloff, combat range, and time to travel, but it serves as an abstraction. For all of these BC's however, drone damage is just supplemental damage. Different case for the Myrm/Prophecy.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#64 - 2013-02-22 06:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Hmmm. It looks like the Cyclone is pretty consistently able to do it in basically any configuration. It makes the trade off of being much more vulnerable to high DPS vs focus fire though. Here's one fit that can do it, after I deliberately stacked the comparison in favor of the Drake:

[Cyclone, XL Active Tank]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hammerhead II x5

Cyclone EHP towards Drake: 37673 + 1082 * (4.25*9) = 79059 + Recharge
Drake's EHP towards Cyclone: 65362 + Recharge

Drake DPS: 818/60 sec + 707
Cyclone DPS: 705/60 sec + 623

Drake TTL = 97 sec
Cyclone TTL = 102 sec

-Liang

Ed: Stacking a second invuln as you'd tend to do on an ASB fit makes the comparison kinda laughable. Running dual ASB does as well. EM/Thm/Kin layout on your rigs does as well. Anyway. You get the picture. The Cyclone can brawl down the Drake.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#65 - 2013-02-22 06:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
A similar Ion Ferox fit: 50036 + 1318*(4.25*9) = 100449 Kin EHP. Very similar damage output to the Drake, less range. Drake has 93k EHP towards the Ferox. Seems to me that if the fight starts within ~15-20km the Ferox has it in the bag.

-Liang

Ed: Buffer Ferox starts with 103k EHP and significantly more DPS. Pretty sure it has it too.

Ferox #1:
[Ferox, Blaster Ferox]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin II x5

Ferox #2:
[Ferox, Neutron Ferox]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Small Nosferatu II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#66 - 2013-02-22 06:51:29 UTC
Let us examine the case of the dual rep Brutix vs the Drake. The Brutix begins the fight with 40520 EHP. It takes the Drake 10 seconds to go through the Brutix's armor, leaving it with 32,187 EHP. For the next 50 seconds, the Drake "can" overheat its launchers and will deal 3840 EHP worth of EHP. This leaves the Brutix with 28,347 EHP when the Drake can no longer overheat.

If the Brutix reloads the AAR, it wills till tank 287 DPS until the AAR comes back up. That means the Drake effectively deals 707-287 = 420 DPS for 60 seconds. This leaves the Brutix with 3147 EHP (in hull) when the AAR finishes reloading, and the AAR will not complete its cycle before the Brutix dies. The end, after 60+60+4 = 124 seconds.

If the Brutix does not reload the AAR, it will tank 448 DPS for another 70 seconds and then drop down to 360 DPS tanked. This means the Drake will deal 70 seconds of 707-448=259 DPS for 70 seconds and then 347 DPS from then on. So how long does the Brutix hold out? Well, I'm glad you asked. 259 DPS * 70 sec = 18130 damage, leaving the Brutix edging into hull between rep cycles. It's still got ~10217 EHP left though, and it'll take another 30 seconds to go down (this will be less because the Drake will deal 5656 damage between rep cycles).

SO, what's all that mean in the end? Has the Brutix just been sitting there eating Rage HAM for 160 seconds? Well, no. Actually it dished out 65208 damage in the first 78 seconds of the fight, leaving the Drake with 27974 EHP + leaving the Drake at about 15-20% shields (we'll assume Really Great Things about its recharge rate, just to be "fair"). It'll take another 40 or so seconds to die somewhere between T115 and T120 seconds, depending on how well recharge did.

So where was the Brutix at T=120 seconds? It's at low armor. That means the Brutix has forty seconds to catch up to the Drake and start applying DPS.

Don't get me wrong - the Drake is still super strong. But, it's not invincible like is being presented here.

Here's the Brutix fit, for reference:

[Brutix, Dual Rep]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5


-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-02-22 09:15:46 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Yeah, I noticed your HAM Drake thread, diesel.

While you may have been overstating its capabilities with the 16.5km range Rage Ammo a bit....

The Drake apologists KNOW it came out of this round of 'nerfs' smelling like a rose.
"Oh its only good on paper, but it really just sucks."

I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.

Unless you get the 'HML long-range fit vs AC short-range fit' mismatch - at no point can a Hurricane even threaten a Drake.

Greater mobility is only useful for running away, because there is no 'ideal range' or sweet spot.

The only place it can out-damage a Drake is point blank range, but the slight damage edge doesn't come anywhere near what is necessary to break that passive tank. The further away you move, the worse it gets. Outside of Javelin Range you aren't taking damage, but you also aren't pointing him - nor are you breaking his tank.

Earlier versions of the 'Cane stood a chance against the Drake - mainly because of dual Neuts giving you the ability to shutting down Hardeners and keep them off. Good luck doing that now, before your own sub-standard tank collapses.

Its no surprise that the Hurricane was weakened - or even that they overnerfed it a bit. CCP likes to overcompensate.

But I can't understand why the still-far-more-popular Drake completely evaded the nerf-gun on this pass, leaving it standing atop the heap.


Well, I think its a huge deal that the drake can do brawler level DPS at 16km while the other ships are stuck at <10kms, most blaster boats at <5kms.

And ontop of that have a battleship tank with scram/disrupt and web.


Experienced drake pilots will always fly away from their targets which increases their range to something like +20km, while also lowering the enemy brawlers incoming DPS.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#68 - 2013-02-22 11:02:09 UTC
Responded to Liang on the other thread, as this thread was primarily directed at the Hurricane's shortcomings and evolved into Drake discussion.....but after getting some sleep, looking at active tanked Cyclones and Feroxes.

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#69 - 2013-02-22 13:29:35 UTC
Resistance bonus needs to be nerfed from 5% to 4% per level. This simple change (while not significant) will have a rather positive effect on allot of the balance issues heavily discussed in the past 5-6 months.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#70 - 2013-02-22 13:37:03 UTC
Kind of working out what the XL ASB Cyclone does vs your typical LSE II Drake.

Still looks like the Drake comes out on top - unless I have my numbers wrong.

The Booster can counteract slightly more than the incoming DPS for 45 seconds, and knocks 18K EHP off the Drake, in turn.
While spending 60 seconds reloading its ASB, the 36K EHP Cyclone is torn a new ******* - and still doesn't put the Drake into Armor.

Of course, it can run - but then, why fight at all?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#71 - 2013-02-22 14:44:27 UTC
Breaking news : minmatar will now have to pick their fights !

Winmatar may haven't been exagerated after all...
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#72 - 2013-02-22 16:02:54 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Breaking news : minmatar will now have to pick their fights !

Winmatar may haven't been exagerated after all...


Don't be a prat.

As my own experience in Canes tended to often involve scraps with Drakes, I understood that 1v1 fights between the Canes and Drakes were often very close and swung by a thin margin. It was close enough that the difference between 'staggering' your twin neuts or not often made the difference in the fight. (By shutting down Invulns more often....) SP is another variable that could not be accounted for, in practice.

But it was still a bit of a 'gimmick' - because everyone in a Cane understood that the raw stats of the Drake in terms of EHP and damage FAR outstripped the Cane's pre-buff capabilities. Without that gimmick, you are left with a completely hopeless match up.

Hurricane vs most other BCs - now there are winning scenarios and losing scenarios. Thats fine.
But against the Drake you are faced with just losing scenarios. (and this is a problem with the Drake - it spanks most other BCs handily, and I haven't even tried cramming an L-ASB onto a Drake yet, just for kicks.)

I think today you have a situation where the Drake is still sitting well above the other BCs, and this could easily have been predicted by CCP - but they did nothing. If anything, HAM Drake got a buff with the turret changes.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#73 - 2013-02-22 16:24:08 UTC
Fit armor tank with RAH on your Hurricane et voilà.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#74 - 2013-02-22 16:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fit armor tank with RAH on your Hurricane et voilà.


Indeed.

Honestly, Wilkus, so many ideas have been given to you on a plate here, and you still seem intent on not learning anything and worse, you continue to attempt to distill BC balance to this absurdly narrow case of single Drake vs. single Hurricane.

It's silly to expect one of the most mobile BCs to outbrawl one of the slowest anyway. Save your tears for the Harbinger.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#75 - 2013-02-22 17:15:10 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fit armor tank with RAH on your Hurricane et voilà.


Indeed.

Honestly, Wilkus, so many ideas have been given to you on a plate here, and you still seem intent on not learning anything and worse, you continue to attempt to distill BC balance to this absurdly narrow case of single Drake vs. single Hurricane.

It's silly to expect one of the most mobile BCs to outbrawl one of the slowest anyway. Save your tears for the Harbinger.


Hey, Gypsio, just keep trolling like a shithead. It suits you.
While I've been splitting posts between two different threads, I've been actively seeking out input and new ideas.
I've yet to spend a lot of time on EFT with some of the newer mods that have come out recently, including RAH.

And you are so intent on being a smartass, you likely don't even know if the RAH tilts the balance in favor of the Cane or not.
But I'm willing to give it a try.

Trying to model a mod that slowly shifts Resistances over time isn't trivial.
And the RAH is not seeing 'pure' Kinetic, unless Drake is using Caldari Drones. So assuming the RAH ramps up to 60% vs Kinetic in 40 seconds is fail. Also, is the RAH 'good enough' to be considered 'general use' or is it simply 'metagaming' a fit to stop a Drake? I don't know, but I've yet to see lots of complaints about RAH, in the same vein as ASB.


Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2013-02-22 17:19:57 UTC
matar qq
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#77 - 2013-02-22 18:01:19 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

And the RAH is not seeing 'pure' Kinetic, unless Drake is using Caldari Drones. So assuming the RAH ramps up to 60% vs Kinetic in 40 seconds is fail. Also, is the RAH 'good enough' to be considered 'general use' or is it simply 'metagaming' a fit to stop a Drake? I don't know, but I've yet to see lots of complaints about RAH, in the same vein as ASB.


I thought your use case for the Cane was to orca swap into it? Seems like you are perfectly fine with meta gaming the Drake pilots anyway.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#78 - 2013-02-22 18:36:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Liang Nuren wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

And the RAH is not seeing 'pure' Kinetic, unless Drake is using Caldari Drones. So assuming the RAH ramps up to 60% vs Kinetic in 40 seconds is fail. Also, is the RAH 'good enough' to be considered 'general use' or is it simply 'metagaming' a fit to stop a Drake? I don't know, but I've yet to see lots of complaints about RAH, in the same vein as ASB.


I thought your use case for the Cane was to orca swap into it? Seems like you are perfectly fine with meta gaming the Drake pilots anyway.

/shrug

-Liang


Armor Cane was typically used out of Orcas - but the Cane fits were not 'metagamed' against Drakes in particular. They were more or less just your typical 1600MM Plate, 220MM, Dual Neut canes. So your assertion, Liang, is inaccurate. /shrug

In fact, some of us refused to even bother with Drakes -as they tended be fairly unimpressive KMs. A 25M ISK Drake (cost at the time) was just KB filler when everyone was after the blingy CNRs, Nighthawks and Marauders.

Still, you tended to run into a lot of Drakes -so if you were bored and not choosy, you ended up with a lot of solo fights with them. Of course, we are talking about mission runners here.

Most of these Drakes tended to use extra slots for tanking (-no tackle) - but also frequently had a SP deficit (most carebears move up from Drakes to CNRs) - and many were just flat out fail fits.

Still - some of those fights were tough with just an Armor Cane - not all ended in a clean solo kill, but require holding them until outside RR assistance arrived to help finish the job - especially if it was an older PVE'r who 'just likes Drakes'. And Rattlesnakes were even tougher. And this was pre-Cane nerf, pre-HML nerf.

Eventually I just figured 'hell with it' and put Burst-tank AC Sleips in all my Speed Orcas - as they simply cut through Drakes like butter and could easily handle Rattlesnakes as well.

Of course, after 3 separate patches, the Orca has more or less finally been killed off for LVL 4 mission runner baiting, so I don't forsee having too many of these controlled, nonconsensual 1 vs 1 fights in the future.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#79 - 2013-02-22 19:18:33 UTC
If you're after a thrill, the Purifier makes a great Drake/Raven/CNR (missile ship with an EM hole) Killer.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Umega
Solis Mensa
#80 - 2013-02-23 04:01:38 UTC
Armor cane best cane. No, shield-kite cane best. No, dual-prop TD cane is best cane. No, shield brawler with 5 gyro cane best.

Drakes suck. Only PvE players use drakes.. then something changed, without a damn thing happening to the drake or it's mods/weapons to make it Viewed as viable for PvP.

TDs suck. Waste of midslot.. yet that changed.. with nothing happening to TDs, infact they've gotten nerfed and are still more prevelent than Viewed in the past.

Armor-HAC fleets rule the universe.. no, wait.. alpha maels rule the universe.. nothing changed (disclaimer - the arty change '09 helped but the docturine wasn't implemented till much later...).

Golem is PvE god.. no, wait Mach.. no, wait.. Tengu.. what changed exactly when those changes happened?

Long list made short.. **** changes without **** being changed. Funny how that is.. people come up with these notions right off the bat, and for some reason.. cement them into stone. I find it to be a lot of Fail in personality to hold so much conviction.. with letting past experince weigh so heavily upon present transistions.

The result is this.. when changes do happen.. people don't really have a clue on the end result. Speculation seems to hold more sway on these forums than legitament repeated experince. And I mean repeated.. dumb ass everybody claiming a ship sucks simply becuase they hit paper with their rock on the first go.

And with that, while the cane obviously took a hit.. it was by no means drastic. It can still be used, and used very successfully. What happened is there is going to be more options for people to explore, and use with equal success than simply drake/cane or go home. It is going to take some time to find the most optimal fits too.. fight after fight after fight after fight to garnish reliable proof, than number punching. The cane docturine really hasn't changed.. take it out, and smash good pilots trying the new BCs in different fits they aren't used to. Can sit in the lab and design the perfect gun.. then when u give it to a soldier, actual battle field results don't pan out. This has happened time n again throughout the history of weapons.

Cane is also going to weild the term of 'inferior'.. making people more inclined to fight something that really isn't that badly nerfed.. at all. That in itself.. is a buff to me.