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Did CCP forget to re-bonus the Hurricane properly?

Author
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#1 - 2013-02-20 13:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Let me preface this:
I'm not personally invested in the Hurricane.It was a pretty nice ship, I used it now and again, but haven't touched it much since the debut of the Tornado. And yes, the Hurricane was clearly the "2nd best Battlecruiser" though the Drake far out stripped it in general usage.

I suicide gank carebears. The Cane is not a suicide gank-ship.
So idiots out there who will to accuse me of 'shedding tears for the FOTM', stop right there and engage your brain first.

However, I am wondering if CCP went a bit overboard on beating it into the ground - relative to the other BC's.
It didn't escape my attention that it is the ONLY BC to receive an "across the board" nerf, in addition to a 'pre-nerf'.
(most of the other changes were either (needed) straight-up buffs or nerfs with compensating buffs - including the Drake)

Cane just got beat hard with the ugly stick:
-less Powergrid
-Slower
-Less highslots
-Less EHP

One of the things that previously made the Hurricane kind of unique was is its twin-damage/ROF bonus. The 'cane, more than any other ship needed that Battlecruiser V to really shine. While having one less turret slot than most of its peers, the 'extra DPS' racial bonus allowed it to stay competitive in the damage race - and fit other toys for flexibility.

NOW:
The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board.

The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.
The Myrm and Prophecy also been given large damage bonuses on drones and bay buffs.

Except, the "extra damage" has been given in the form of a nice, compact 50% damage buff.
That left design space for an ADDITIONAL bonus, depending on the race. (Armor Reps, Shield/Armor Resists, Cap)

While the Hurricane is still saddled with two 'obsolete' 25% bonuses, that, combined are essentially equal to a single bonus on the any of the other ships.

Now, I understand that there is more to balance. Projectiles are not Missiles are not Lasers are not Blasters. Other fitting characteristics come into play as well. (Amarr, in particular, complain that a cap-reduction bonus is essentially useless when most other weapon systems are naturally 'capless'.)

Now, the patch just hit, and it remains to be seen how things pan out
But my gut feeling is that the Hurricane is going to fall pretty short......
....in this brave new world of Battlecruisers where 10% Damage/level bonuses are now standard issue on every hull.

Perhaps a bump up to 7.5% for ROF or damage would be in order?
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-02-20 13:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dante Uisen
Herr Wilkus wrote:

NOW:
The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board.

The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.


don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus, and the harbinger has damage / reduced cap? from the patch notes the only bc with dual damage bonus i noticed was the hurricane.
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#3 - 2013-02-20 13:21:25 UTC
It's so stupid with people saying that the cap use bonus is useless. A harb does what, 500 dps out past point range with a shield fit? It out-dps's a cane at that range by far, and it costs a buttload of cap to do so. That cap bonus will determine if you win the fight or not.

Oh so you wanted to mwd after the cane when it tries to get away? Can't do that with no cap bro. Cap bonus is good, mkay?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#4 - 2013-02-20 13:22:37 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

NOW:
The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board.

The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.


don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus?

Yeah, so it basically has the same bonuses as the cane.

A double damage bonus and a useless bonus.

Cane has 2 useful bonuses and no wasted bonuses. So that makes it even.

Except that the Brutix does 1100 dps at close range Lol

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#5 - 2013-02-20 13:27:59 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

NOW:
The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board.

The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.


don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus?



Maybe I wasn't 100% clear.
Think of it this way: Each ship has 2 'Racial bonus' slots.

Brutix has: 10%/level Damage bonus and a 7.5%/level Armor Rep bonus.

Hurricane has: A 5% ROF and a 5% damage bonus/per level.

The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus.

Of course there are plenty of other balancing points, but it seems that the Hurricane missed out a bit when CCP started handing out 10% bonuses like candy.....
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-02-20 13:31:30 UTC
It was definitely overbalanced. We've gone from everyone using Canes to everyone planning to use anything but.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2013-02-20 13:40:51 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
It was definitely overbalanced. We've gone from everyone using Canes to everyone planning to use anything but.


CCP does then to use jackhammers where a scalpel would have been better lol.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#8 - 2013-02-20 13:42:34 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

NOW:
The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board.

The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.


don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus?

Yeah, so it basically has the same bonuses as the cane.

A double damage bonus and a useless bonus.

Cane has 2 useful bonuses and no wasted bonuses. So that makes it even.

Except that the Brutix does 1100 dps at close range Lol


Hey, I'm not disappointed in the Brutix. If it can do more damage, it becomes a more viable ganking platform, with significantly less turret expense....

And maybe the Brutix/Myrm 'Active Rep' bonus is 'less' useful, than say,
.....the EHP Resists of the Drake or the Prophecy - but its still a net positive, vs the goose-egg the Hurricane sports.

Like I said, balancing is a complicated thing. But something tells me that the 5% + 5% bonuses given to the 'Cane' just aren't going to cut it, now that 10% Damage bonuses are nearly universal on the other hulls.


Merouk Baas
#9 - 2013-02-20 13:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Merouk Baas
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP does then to use jackhammers where a scalpel would have been better lol.


It's normally a sound business and design decision, when paired with their "ongoing balance, we'll revisit and revise the ships with every patch" policy. They want us to stop using Hurricanes and try other ships.

The problem is that they're horrible at actually going back and doing their job with the "ongoing" part of the balance. They've ALWAYS always over-nerfed and then moved on to bigger and better things. They never support their changes, they just move on to new toys/technology.

It's frustrating.
Whitehound
#10 - 2013-02-20 13:52:53 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

NOW:
The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board.

The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.


don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus?



Maybe I wasn't 100% clear.
Think of it this way: Each ship has 2 'Racial bonus' slots.

Brutix has: 10%/level Damage bonus and a 7.5%/level Armor Rep bonus.

Hurricane has: A 5% ROF and a 5% damage bonus/per level.

The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus.

Of course there are plenty of other balancing points, but it seems that the Hurricane missed out a bit when CCP started handing out 10% bonuses like candy.....

So what do you suggest then?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#11 - 2013-02-20 14:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Whitehound wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

NOW:
The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board.

The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.


don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus?



Maybe I wasn't 100% clear.
Think of it this way: Each ship has 2 'Racial bonus' slots.

Brutix has: 10%/level Damage bonus and a 7.5%/level Armor Rep bonus.

Hurricane has: A 5% ROF and a 5% damage bonus/per level.

The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus.

Of course there are plenty of other balancing points, but it seems that the Hurricane missed out a bit when CCP started handing out 10% bonuses like candy.....

So what do you suggest then?


Originally, the thing that made the Cane kind of unique was essentially:
"Bonuses mean equal damage with less turrets, making room for utility highs/versatility"

This 'theme' is now common in almost all battlecruisers, except they achieve it with a single (large) racial damage bonus.
And having 'utility highs' is now, more or less standard issue - the 'Cane lost its 'extra' slot.

I'd consider either:
A) consolidating the two 'old' bonuses into a standard 10% Projectile damage/level and figure out a 'new' capability that gives the 'Cane something unique or at least distinguishing.

(EDIT: Off hand, I'd think either a tracking or a falloff bonus, both of which support Minmatar themes of 'speed' and kiting)

B) Or if 'twin damage bonus' is meant to be the Hurricane's thing, give it a half-bump up to 7.5% Damage/level, while leaving the ROF the same.

At level V:
Currently:
1.25 * 1.25 = 1.56 (comparable to the 1.5 from the 10% damage bonus)

With a 7.5% Dam/5% ROF
1.325 * 1.25 = 1.72 (a little extra kick, compensating for lack of tank bonuses and '1x utility highs' now being universal...)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2013-02-20 14:58:16 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:


The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus.


No they aren't

1.25/0.75 is quite a lot more than 1.5

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2013-02-20 15:23:19 UTC
It didn't lose any turrets like the ships that needed the 10% dmg bonus to compensate, and it still has as much grid as the Brutix, even though it uses less pg-intensive weapons.

.

Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
#14 - 2013-02-20 15:51:53 UTC
Do the math correctly buddy. A 25% reduction in cycle time equals a 33% damage bonus (Cycle time down from "1" to "0,75", three Shots vs four shots in the same time). While a Brutix carries now an equivalent of 9 turrets (6*1.5) a Cane carries 9,975 (6*1.25*1.33) almost one turret more.
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-02-20 16:24:12 UTC
Tired of seeing Canes everywhere anyways. May the new Brutix serve its pilots well.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#16 - 2013-02-20 16:36:00 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:


The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus.


No they aren't

1.25/0.75 is quite a lot more than 1.5


Good call, its a rate. So, rather than a straight multiplication, its divided.

Still, 1.25/0.75 = 1.66 vs 1.5 for the other ships.

Yet, the point stands.

Previously other BC's had a 25% bonus (plus another turret, so call it 1.44)

So, what are we looking at?
The Cane has a roughly 10% bonus in generic damage. In exchange for an entire 'racial bonus' slot.

Factor in the removal of the Hurricane's 'extra' utility high, while simultaneously giving utility highs to all other BC's.

Its just very underwhelming - and quite possibly lacking.

I understand the point of knocking down the Hurricane a peg, but reducing it to 'crap' when BCs are supposed to be roughly 'equal' after tiericide.

Also, some of the comments strike me as, "Hey, the Hurricane was 2nd best for a long time, now it needs to suck hard." Nonsense. Besides, it would be a shame if such a good looking hull was wrecked by a bad balance pass, in exchange for flying fugly-ass Brutixes. Lol









Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-02-20 17:31:50 UTC
ROF bonuses are more powerful than damage bonuses because of the way the maths works.

dps from a 5% rof bonus is calculated 100 / ( 100 - 5 * LvL )

at level 5

dps = 100 / ( 100 - 5 * 5 ) = 133.3333%

multiple in the damage bonus

Total dps increase = 133.3333% * 125% = 166.666%

so cane gets 66% more dps at lvl 5 in all damage types
better than the 50% dps increase of the other races in specific damge types.

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#18 - 2013-02-20 17:52:35 UTC
The other BC (aside from the new Cyclone) are still locked down to 2 or even just 1 damage type, while the Hurricane still has the flexability to jump from EMP to Phased Plasma to Fusion depending on the situation.

That's still a pretty big deal.

Also, ROF bonus on capless weapons systems = winsauce

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Makavelia
National Industries
#19 - 2013-02-20 18:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
Just becuase people jumped onto the cane band wagon it does not mean people like me (who chose mini with no prior knowledge to the ships) should be punished. I remained a pure mini piolit and i intend to remain so, why go off training FOTM bs to see it get nerfed?.. and why fly something i don't even want to fly... for no other reason thatn it's the current OP.

Rifter sux now.. that was one of my liked options.

Stealth bomber now sucks unless in a specialised pack or nul. Gone are the solo FUN days.

T2 torp Typhoon is not useble in any area of the game i am playing or intend to get back into ( exploration - pve - low/high sec pvp ). Although i have trained shield skills well enough to field a good maelstrom.. i still lack the t2 guns to make it realy worth while. But even in training those guns, why?.. BS's are so situation or restricted to pve.


So i have to ask, why should a player like me continue to play eve? where is my enjoyment when everything i have trained for has been nerfed to **** or made totaly situational i MUST live in X location to use just 1 ship type.. then Y location to use the other.

The cane will no longer be able to serve me in solo C2 WH., the need for probe/salvy/vamp (passive tank) simply hits to hard to lose another turret. They were not huge isk makers but it was something i persue for fun. I will still be able to use the cane for 4/10 exploration but i have to choose between losing tank/dps/cap stability or else pay for faction mods to armor tank (should you need to faction fit a t1 bc?? cmon). In pvp it's just a flat 70dps loss.. and for no good reason given the counter buffs to other bc.


I guess i came to say ''thnx ccp for destroying the only mini ship left in any fit state that i trained for''.


Maybe i will go spend the time to get T2 HAMS and field a cyclone instead?.. and then maybe you will nerf HAMS 3 month down the line thnx to the drake. More sp well spent!.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#20 - 2013-02-20 18:33:51 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
why should a player like me continue to play eve?


You shouldn't, can I have your stuff?
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