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Estimated Price - Please disable it for now.

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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#41 - 2013-02-20 15:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Halete wrote:
As said, it's extremely useful in Wormholes. It's much handier to get a rough idea of a price on the fly than to log in a trading alt.

Frankly, I'd be OK with it NOT working in wormholes at all - or going by last known 'good' price from the time you entered W-Space. I live in W-Space much of the time, and I'm comfortable with the data ambiguity found there. Adds to the 'flavor' of W-Space, IMO. Ditto, in Nul - I'd expect the further you get from the trade hubs, the less accurate it should be. Only in Empire Space should the numbers be reasonably current and accurate.

Perhaps add an 'uncertainty' factor, the further you are from your chosen hub.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#42 - 2013-02-20 15:25:55 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its the average across EVE, its not ment to be accurate.


Is that how its supposed to work? Wonder where all those 1,000 ISK or lower modules sell for high enough prices to make for their massive averages :p


I've not personally stumbled across any cheap items that have vastly inflated values, most of those are probably attempts to manipulate the market for various reasons and get weeded out fairly quickly if they begin affecting things like FW payouts and such.

However, if you have found a few, you should cash in while you can. Of course, if people start doing that, very quickly it becomes a self correcting problem.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#43 - 2013-02-20 15:27:19 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Halete wrote:
As said, it's extremely useful in Wormholes. It's much handier to get a rough idea of a price on the fly than to log in a trading alt.

Frankly, I'd be OK with it NOT working in wormholes at all - or going by last known 'good' price from the time you entered W-Space. I live in W-Space much of the time, and I'm comfortable with the data ambiguity found there. Adds to the 'flavor' of W-Space, IMO. Ditto, in Nul - I'd expect the further you get from the trade hubs, the less accurate it should be. Only in Empire Space should the numbers be reasonably current and accurate.

Perhaps add an 'uncertainty' factor, the further you are from your chosen hub.

It sounds like the "uncertainty factor" is already built in, thus the reason for this thread.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-02-20 15:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyron-Baktos
nm, this would be **** too
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
#45 - 2013-02-20 15:35:41 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
I gotta admit I find it pretty helpful actually, I get the estimated price of my mined ores, and so helps me to plan ahead when saving up for stuff, and Ive found it surprisingly accurate a lot of the time,

keep it I say, or make it an option to disable it,

I mean you don't have to look at it if you don't want to Roll


Yea it's only inaccurate for slow-moving items
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
#46 - 2013-02-20 15:36:41 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its the average across EVE, its not ment to be accurate.


Is that how its supposed to work? Wonder where all those 1,000 ISK or lower modules sell for high enough prices to make for their massive averages :p


My guess is these items rarely get bought/sold and the average has been manipulated...
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-02-20 15:38:52 UTC
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
I gotta admit I find it pretty helpful actually, I get the estimated price of my mined ores, and so helps me to plan ahead when saving up for stuff, and Ive found it surprisingly accurate a lot of the time,

keep it I say, or make it an option to disable it,

I mean you don't have to look at it if you don't want to Roll


Yea it's only inaccurate for slow-moving items


Not just inaccurate, GROSSLY inaccurate. Scanners for example go for ridiculously lower prices compared to their estimated value. I wouldn't be surprised if someone figured out a way to work the bounty system using modules like that. Seems easy to do actually.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#48 - 2013-02-20 16:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
I gotta admit I find it pretty helpful actually, I get the estimated price of my mined ores, and so helps me to plan ahead when saving up for stuff, and Ive found it surprisingly accurate a lot of the time,

keep it I say, or make it an option to disable it,

I mean you don't have to look at it if you don't want to Roll


Yea it's only inaccurate for slow-moving items


Not just inaccurate, GROSSLY inaccurate. Scanners for example go for ridiculously lower prices compared to their estimated value. I wouldn't be surprised if someone figured out a way to work the bounty system using modules like that. Seems easy to do actually.

Well, since CCP has stated repeatedly that they have procedures in place to monitor exactly that type of manipulation (due to past experience with FW loyalty point payouts based on item value) I doubt you'd get away with it very often... if at all.

Sure, you can manipulate the market with no issues... but if you try to cash in via bounty payout or FW loyalty points that's when you start flirting with official repercussions.

It's not really worth a ban on all of your accounts if you don't get the hint.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#49 - 2013-02-20 16:04:27 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Halete wrote:
As said, it's extremely useful in Wormholes. It's much handier to get a rough idea of a price on the fly than to log in a trading alt.

Frankly, I'd be OK with it NOT working in wormholes at all - or going by last known 'good' price from the time you entered W-Space. I live in W-Space much of the time, and I'm comfortable with the data ambiguity found there. Adds to the 'flavor' of W-Space, IMO. Ditto, in Nul - I'd expect the further you get from the trade hubs, the less accurate it should be. Only in Empire Space should the numbers be reasonably current and accurate.

Perhaps add an 'uncertainty' factor, the further you are from your chosen hub.

It sounds like the "uncertainty factor" is already built in, thus the reason for this thread.

But not intentionally - Just bad code.
I think it'd work better if the uncertainty was directly relatable to distance to the nearest hub.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#50 - 2013-02-20 16:35:33 UTC
I enjoy beating those prices, making more than the average on any given item I sell. It's an amusing minigame, even though it's usually pretty easy to get a much better price.
XxRTEKxX
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#51 - 2013-02-20 16:40:16 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
I gotta admit I find it pretty helpful actually, I get the estimated price of my mined ores, and so helps me to plan ahead when saving up for stuff, and Ive found it surprisingly accurate a lot of the time,

keep it I say, or make it an option to disable it,

I mean you don't have to look at it if you don't want to Roll


Works ok for me too. Option to disable is a good option. I dont want it to go away. I like the feature. If it annoys some people, then option to enable/disable is a good thing.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-02-20 17:06:09 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
I gotta admit I find it pretty helpful actually, I get the estimated price of my mined ores, and so helps me to plan ahead when saving up for stuff, and Ive found it surprisingly accurate a lot of the time,

keep it I say, or make it an option to disable it,

I mean you don't have to look at it if you don't want to Roll


Yea it's only inaccurate for slow-moving items


Not just inaccurate, GROSSLY inaccurate. Scanners for example go for ridiculously lower prices compared to their estimated value. I wouldn't be surprised if someone figured out a way to work the bounty system using modules like that. Seems easy to do actually.

Well, since CCP has stated repeatedly that they have procedures in place to monitor exactly that type of manipulation (due to past experience with FW loyalty point payouts based on item value) I doubt you'd get away with it very often... if at all.

Sure, you can manipulate the market with no issues... but if you try to cash in via bounty payout or FW loyalty points that's when you start flirting with official repercussions.

It's not really worth a ban on all of your accounts if you don't get the hint.


Is it technically an exploit though? I mean, I kind of would consider it as such, but its such an obvious potential problem that really should have been caught, and they don't seem to take action against alts or corp mates collecting bounties. Really wouldn't surprise me to see someone purposely rack up a bounty, load a rookie ship with a lot of cheap, overvalued scanners and use an alt to blast them, essentially transferring all that ISK to their alt. Wouldn't be through bug abuse or anything like that, but because of a flaw in the way they set things up. Its obviously exploiting the system, yeah, but it also seems like something that should have been foreseen from day 1.

Not encouraging anyone to go out and do this, but seems to be a flaw they should fix.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-02-20 17:28:43 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
mechtech wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its the average across EVE, its not ment to be accurate.


They really just should hardcode it in to use the 4-4 price if at all possible.


that would be useless. if anything, regional average would be more useful.

not really no, what happens then when the item's not available in your region? you're screwed?

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-02-20 17:35:59 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Sir Substance wrote:
mechtech wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its the average across EVE, its not ment to be accurate.


They really just should hardcode it in to use the 4-4 price if at all possible.


that would be useless. if anything, regional average would be more useful.

not really no, what happens then when the item's not available in your region? you're screwed?


Well, there's a good chance it was sold in your region at some point, so I imagine there would still be some market data available on it.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#55 - 2013-02-20 17:41:18 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Sir Substance wrote:
mechtech wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its the average across EVE, its not ment to be accurate.


They really just should hardcode it in to use the 4-4 price if at all possible.


that would be useless. if anything, regional average would be more useful.

not really no, what happens then when the item's not available in your region? you're screwed?


Well, there's a good chance it was sold in your region at some point, so I imagine there would still be some market data available on it.

Possibly, but likely more wildly inaccurate than the EvE wide average.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#56 - 2013-02-20 17:43:44 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Halete wrote:
As said, it's extremely useful in Wormholes. It's much handier to get a rough idea of a price on the fly than to log in a trading alt.

Frankly, I'd be OK with it NOT working in wormholes at all - or going by last known 'good' price from the time you entered W-Space. I live in W-Space much of the time, and I'm comfortable with the data ambiguity found there. Adds to the 'flavor' of W-Space, IMO. Ditto, in Nul - I'd expect the further you get from the trade hubs, the less accurate it should be. Only in Empire Space should the numbers be reasonably current and accurate.

Perhaps add an 'uncertainty' factor, the further you are from your chosen hub.

It sounds like the "uncertainty factor" is already built in, thus the reason for this thread.

But not intentionally - Just bad code.
I think it'd work better if the uncertainty was directly relatable to distance to the nearest hub.

It's not bad code, it's doing exactly what it is supposed to do. It gives you the EvE wide average value of the item. This is really the only practical way to present the information, as it is then the responsibility of the person interpreting the data to know if their intended market (where ever in EvE that may be compared to their current location) trends above or below that average.

This value is not, and was never intended to, act as a replacement mechanism for viewing distant markets within game.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#57 - 2013-02-20 17:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Ranger 1 wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Halete wrote:
As said, it's extremely useful in Wormholes. It's much handier to get a rough idea of a price on the fly than to log in a trading alt.

Frankly, I'd be OK with it NOT working in wormholes at all - or going by last known 'good' price from the time you entered W-Space. I live in W-Space much of the time, and I'm comfortable with the data ambiguity found there. Adds to the 'flavor' of W-Space, IMO. Ditto, in Nul - I'd expect the further you get from the trade hubs, the less accurate it should be. Only in Empire Space should the numbers be reasonably current and accurate.

Perhaps add an 'uncertainty' factor, the further you are from your chosen hub.

It sounds like the "uncertainty factor" is already built in, thus the reason for this thread.

But not intentionally - Just bad code.
I think it'd work better if the uncertainty was directly relatable to distance to the nearest hub.

It's not bad code, it's doing exactly what it is supposed to do. It gives you the EvE wide average value of the item. This is really the only practical way to present the information, as it is then the responsibility of the person interpreting the data to know if their intended market (where ever in EvE that may be compared to their current location) trends above or below that average.

This value is not, and was never intended to, act as a replacement mechanism for viewing distant markets within game.
When you find items with wildly out-of-whack price v. estimate values, I'm stuck trying to figure if it's bad code, or bad implementation of an idea, or if CCP is deliberately trolling the estimates.

Prices are local, estimates ought to be local. Indeed, in other respects, your financial capabilities are range-limited (depending on skills)... So why not the estimates, too?

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#58 - 2013-02-20 17:51:41 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
I gotta admit I find it pretty helpful actually, I get the estimated price of my mined ores, and so helps me to plan ahead when saving up for stuff, and Ive found it surprisingly accurate a lot of the time,

keep it I say, or make it an option to disable it,

I mean you don't have to look at it if you don't want to Roll


Yea it's only inaccurate for slow-moving items


Not just inaccurate, GROSSLY inaccurate. Scanners for example go for ridiculously lower prices compared to their estimated value. I wouldn't be surprised if someone figured out a way to work the bounty system using modules like that. Seems easy to do actually.

Well, since CCP has stated repeatedly that they have procedures in place to monitor exactly that type of manipulation (due to past experience with FW loyalty point payouts based on item value) I doubt you'd get away with it very often... if at all.

Sure, you can manipulate the market with no issues... but if you try to cash in via bounty payout or FW loyalty points that's when you start flirting with official repercussions.

It's not really worth a ban on all of your accounts if you don't get the hint.


Is it technically an exploit though? I mean, I kind of would consider it as such, but its such an obvious potential problem that really should have been caught, and they don't seem to take action against alts or corp mates collecting bounties. Really wouldn't surprise me to see someone purposely rack up a bounty, load a rookie ship with a lot of cheap, overvalued scanners and use an alt to blast them, essentially transferring all that ISK to their alt. Wouldn't be through bug abuse or anything like that, but because of a flaw in the way they set things up. Its obviously exploiting the system, yeah, but it also seems like something that should have been foreseen from day 1.

Not encouraging anyone to go out and do this, but seems to be a flaw they should fix.

Manipulating the market to your advantage is not an exploit in any way.

Manipulating the market to cash in via another mechanic (such as FW loyalty points, bounties, etc.) IS an exploit. Don't do it. Sooner or later you will end up getting the same treatment the Goons did and lose all assets and ISK accrued via the exploit, and eventually a ban (likely temporary at first). Not bashing the Goons in this by the way, they were very up front about describing what and how they were able to do this.

This has all been gone through before, and been done before. For the average person the mechanics of both systems don't make this type of exploit very viable (keep in mind how bounty payouts in particular work). For those few with the clout to force it to work, it becomes very easy to spot by CCP due to the large swing in the average value of the item and the necessarily large number of them needing to be lost. Both data sets appear to be reviewed regularly now.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Google Voices
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-02-20 17:53:20 UTC
Careful what you wish for...Every time they make a change, they manage to blow up totally unrelated parts of the game. Oops


"Fozzie could not comment on when this issue would be resolved and stated that “one day Veritas will come up to me and say ‘hey I fixed off-grid boosting’”, but he had no idea on a potential timeframe for this sort of miracle."
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#60 - 2013-02-20 18:00:30 UTC
Google Voices wrote:
Careful what you wish for...Every time they make a change, they manage to blow up totally unrelated parts of the game. Oops



Nothing new there - That's always been the case.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc