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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1501 - 2011-10-26 21:52:30 UTC
Max O'Deel wrote:
So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters.
POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).

POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.

POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.

Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.

Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved.


POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.

We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Matalino
#1502 - 2011-10-26 22:02:21 UTC
Max O'Deel wrote:
POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).
Your corp can tax PI like you would tax rat bounties, or you make PI free for your corp/allies. Either way your corp gets to keep ISK that would otherwise go down a sink.

Max O'Deel wrote:
POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.
You have 24-47 hours to form your defence. There is little point in defending the POCO before it comes out of reinforcement. You have the defensive advantage with the WH being your home territory while the attackers must setup fresh logistics so that they can attack on two different days.

Max O'Deel wrote:
POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
Buy the POCO BPC's through contracts or buy the POCO's from the market. This is the same as any other commodity. There are so many different ways that items are seeded that it is impractical for anyone to get everything they want directly from its source. If the prices for POCO BPC's are "too high", then players will migrate towards running Incursions/Faction Warfare until the price is driven down. This is the same as pirate faction ship BPC's being priced "too high", except that POCO BPC's will be even more accessible and therefore subject to faster price corrections.

This change certainly appears to favor W-space over low-sec. Depending on any further revisions, I will be looking at relocating my low-sec PI operations to W-space.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1503 - 2011-10-26 22:05:59 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Max O'Deel wrote:
So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters.
POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).

POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.

POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.

Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.

Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved.


POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.

We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.


i was hoping this crap wouldnt make it into game tbh. oh well guess its more crap to shoot that dosnt shoot back when you take over space.
just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels?

OMG when can i get a pic here
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#1504 - 2011-10-26 22:46:19 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels?

Not just POS fuels. These are building materials as well. And their importance will increase, not just with the introduction of the player-owned custom office, but also with others. A new item group for Orbital Infrastructure will be created. This will include the new Custom Office, but also the new Orbital Command structure. I expect more structures will appear that can be used to upgrade a solar system. It seems logical to asume that these structures will also require PI materials (and FW/Incursion LP for the BPCs).
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1505 - 2011-10-26 23:15:46 UTC
Max O'Deel wrote:
POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.


IIRC, only 2 NPC stations in the entire game seed the covetor BPO. That's never been a problem, so how do you forsee a problem when far more than 2 stations will be seeding the customs office prints?
Solo Player
#1506 - 2011-10-26 23:22:25 UTC
@CCP Phantom: Are you still taking notes?

CCP Phantom wrote:

Please remember also that most of the people like the idea of more industry options, a more player governed game world with fewer artificial NPC interaction. There are also many people who like specifically the proposed changes. But this is not the topic of this list.


I beg to differ. While I'm sure nobody minds the idea of more industry options, I'm sure not everyone is so hot on them just throwing plausibility out of the window.
NPCs are there for a reason, to give the game some foundation in lore and history, to provide some flavour and a sense of scale and profundity to the universe and the players' interactions with it, and for some, even a sense of purpose.
Sure, they are also there to provide all the menial jobs players wouldn't want to do, but that's no reason to just reduce them to bland unthinking and uniform robots.
I would even go as far as to argue that the current understanding of capsuleers as "demigods" far beyond the means of ordinary men but holding judgement over the lives and deaths of thousands at the blink of an eye by some divine right not only does not sit well with many players but actually takes away from the wonderful universe you have created as well as from the pull of eve as a game for the less pvp oriented.

tl/dr:
Unfortunately, your game is very much lacking at the moment in plausibility, and if you really care to create the "Ultimate Sci-Fi Simulator" as Hilmar says, you should avoid making things even worse with features that don't fit with lore at all.
Edart eno
Doomheim
#1507 - 2011-10-27 00:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Edart eno
CCP Omen wrote:
Raziphan Rebular wrote:
XavierVE wrote:
Quote:
Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.


And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec.



Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.


That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen


But this is where you are so horribly wrong, corps will not set a 9% tax! Please let me explain and bare with me.

I love the idea, I really do. However in practice it will never ever work the way you now intend it to. The reason for this is very simple; the "tax-amount " balance won't work in a game with players and mechanics like EVE. I know what you are thinking (atleast I like to believe I do), you are hoping that corps will lower their taxes because
1: if they lower their taxes, more people will use their planet and therefore more revenues again.
2: the higher their taxes the more chance PI'ers will get discontent and destroy the office.

However in reality this 'free-market' dynamism will never happen because:
1: - Planet installations are Immobile and specific to the planet. (and this one is a biggy!)
- Planets are only really survivable for perhaps 1 to 3,4 players.
- Planet resource layout, Installation setup, logistical problems, ... already make planets highly unsuitable for comparison, combine that with a dynamic tax and people will have no means to effectively compare planets --> no incentive for the corps to adjust their taxes --> Planet taxes will go from a free market equilibrum to a hostage/griefing mechanisme.

2: - the people who will be shooting down the Offices won't be other PI'ers, but will be griefers or mercs, just like we can see with POS'es in low sec. Effectively making PI just another Moon mining, SOV warfare, Corp, Alliance slugfest and to be honest we've already got plenty of those who already should be more than lucrative and exciting...


Or Limit this system to Non Empire (this system is perfect for NPC Null to stand out from Low or regular sec, and give WH holders some extra isk and means from invaders)
Or Limit the tax range amount from example 2% to 30% max
Or Combine these two and have Null do what it wants and Low only have taxes up to 15-20% max (can be a lot lower since it already is a fairly large amount for relatively an entirely passive income)


I would really love your personal opinion about this CCP!
Thanks
gfldex
#1508 - 2011-10-27 00:19:25 UTC
Max O'Deel wrote:

POINT 3. If these BPC’s are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who can’t access them thus leaving corp POS’s unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.


How many do you want?

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1509 - 2011-10-27 02:39:00 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:


POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.

We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.


Yikes. It seems like concerns are bouncing off deaf ears.

I'm really not convinced you all are actually thinking this through...the side effects this will really have. You're so eager to do it you're not considering whether you should.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#1510 - 2011-10-27 03:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
Ingvar Angst wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:


POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.

We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.


Yikes. It seems like concerns are bouncing off deaf ears.

I'm really not convinced you all are actually thinking this through...the side effects this will really have. You're so eager to do it you're not considering whether you should.


Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?
Not only did CCP respond to him in less than 30 minutes, addressing his concerns, but less than 10 minutes after that he got a detailed explanation on why his concerns are unwarranted by Matalino. I was about to post a reply quite similar to that btw until I saw his response. I got the impression that Max O'Deel only skimmed the dev blog and surely hasn't read much on this thread about the feature as he clearly didn't know about the reinforcement timers. The currently proposed implementation of them makes them basically unattackable in wormholes (at least from a practical standpoint). You reinforce one or two of these structures and the what? Log off in the WH system for somewhere between 24 and 48 hours with the entire fleet to let it come out of reinforced and the kill it? At the very least you'd have to leave a scanning alt to find another entry to the system, do some random amount of jumps to get there (5-50?), attack the thing again hoping it isn't defended by the entire population of the WH? For what? to put op your own POCO there? Yea right... With that amount of effort you can kill a POS easily, so again: why on earth would anyone attack one of these inside a WH? If anything this mechanic is too good for those living in WHs.

Yes, you won't make any ISK from the POCOs you need to put up, but you will stop paying ISK for any exports in that case. Sure, it's not gonna be huge but you live in a WH, so it really does make no sense for the current COs to be there in the first place. So be glad for the time you got them basically for free, now it's time to put up your own in what is effectively your own space. Where you also very possibly make a pretty large amount of money anyway...

The only really valid point of that post would be that (at least initially) there might not be enough gantries to go around (and/or the available ones might be sold at insane prices). This will only be the case though if they keep the current plan to not have any sort of transitional period, mainly because it would be pretty stupid and this fact has been pointed out very often. But even if they decide to leave it at the currently proposed removal mechanic and all non-highsec COs are removed: you use PI for POS fuel production, just get some extra supply to last about a month or so beforehand? That amount can easily be hauled in to any wormhole (with T1 haulers if holes are too small for anything serious), but any serious WH corp will have such an amount on hand anyway for unforeseen circumstances. You still need to get some stuff from the regular market anyway, just send 1-2 more ships for the pickup and have them load the full fuel set. It's not like you don't know this is coming, right? After that amount of time the market will have stabilized for POCOs surely, more likely it will have done so after about a week.

Don't get me wrong, the proposal as it is now is far from perfect and some of my good will towards the whole thing is based on the expectation that some obviously bad choices are iterated upon before this hits the live server. However, nothing of what you've mentioned falls into that category as I've also explained above. Let's just hope they correct the issues potentially causing bigger problems. As it stands, WHs are the least disadvantaged group among those affected by the change (namely low, null and WHs). Their only issue is either getting them quick enough to sustain their POS(s) or hauling the fuel for them to hold out long enough to get the POCOs.
Diametrix
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#1511 - 2011-10-27 05:11:09 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels?

Not just POS fuels. These are building materials as well. And their importance will increase, not just with the introduction of the player-owned custom office, but also with others. A new item group for Orbital Infrastructure will be created. This will include the new Custom Office, but also the new Orbital Command structure. I expect more structures will appear that can be used to upgrade a solar system. It seems logical to asume that these structures will also require PI materials (and FW/Incursion LP for the BPCs).



Such a great post. I hope this is incredibly accurate insight into exactly what CCP has planned... if not - it damn well better be soon!

I for one would welcome our new PC-Console Overlords

Thisiswhatimtalkinabout
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1512 - 2011-10-27 06:19:20 UTC
Is it just me or are PI resources going to make eve exactly like Road Warrior....

"JUST WALK AWAY! YOU CAN PUT A STOP TO ALL OF THIS! JUST WALK AWAY AND SPARE YOUR LIVES!"

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1513 - 2011-10-27 10:00:51 UTC
Meh.

I did some quick check of how many PI colonies lowsec planets have (btw, some better tools for this would be handy). Most planets in the 3 systems I checked had at most 1 colonies, a handful had 2, and one had 4. There's no way to tell whether these belong to active players or not.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1514 - 2011-10-27 10:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
El 1974 wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels?

Not just POS fuels. These are building materials as well. And their importance will increase, not just with the introduction of the player-owned custom office, but also with others. A new item group for Orbital Infrastructure will be created. This will include the new Custom Office, but also the new Orbital Command structure. I expect more structures will appear that can be used to upgrade a solar system. It seems logical to asume that these structures will also require PI materials (and FW/Incursion LP for the BPCs).


to me pi is for pos fuels. i dont have any intrest in the other higher things. but i use pos's and have to either get people in corp to do the mind numbing chore that is pi or buy it.
fighting wars with other allliances over pos fuel and or even planety things isnt gonna happen any time soon. well unless they plan to change the build req's for every mod/ship/item in game. and even then its a little far fetched to think wars will happen over pos fuel/planet things.
pass what your smoking ccp dev's, i know that **** is good

OMG when can i get a pic here
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1515 - 2011-10-27 10:17:31 UTC
This has been pointed out already:

I am one of those little guys out of a corp (by now). I would like to be able to carry a Gantry in my Prowler, that has a cargo capacity of 8730 m3 (2 cargo expanders II, obviously minmatar industrial V, and 2 cargohold optimization t1 rigs). Plase note that even with T2 rigs I would not be able to carry the gantry (I would get a 9500m3 cargo, I would just miss 100m3).

Otherwise I will have to

  1. Either look for an escort/scout, travelling with a mastodon, but it will take a lot of time, a cloak and luck
  2. or put a POS up and produce the gantry locally (all doable with a blockade runner). I will need a lot of time anyway


As you see I have alternatives, but those amarr slavers have a much easier time.

Suggestion:
If you want to give Amarr and Gallente a bone, you could change the numbers so that their blockade runners are able to carry the gantry and all the necessary material in one go, while us poor minmatars and caldaries will have to make 2 trips.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1516 - 2011-10-27 10:32:14 UTC
Creat Posudol wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:


POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.

We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.


Yikes. It seems like concerns are bouncing off deaf ears.

I'm really not convinced you all are actually thinking this through...the side effects this will really have. You're so eager to do it you're not considering whether you should.


Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?


If you'd read my posts you'd understand. Implementation. Simply removing all the customs offices then having to wait for people to build the POCOs to replace them flat out doesn't make sense. Not allowing customs offices to be a default state (instead of nothing) craps all over people in high sec trying to do PI in low. The have nothing to fight for if some asshat plants a POCO and cuts off access to them.

If you left the customs offices but had them be inactive when a POCO is present you solve a ton of problems.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1517 - 2011-10-27 10:42:33 UTC
Camios wrote:

  1. Either look for an escort/scout, travelling with a mastodon, but it will take a lot of time, a cloak and luck
  2. or put a POS up and produce the gantry locally (all doable with a blockade runner). I will need a lot of time anyway


I don't think you can build the gantry at a POS, I think it takes a station slot like towers. But you forgot an alternative: train amarr or gallente blockade runners.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1518 - 2011-10-27 13:53:27 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels?

Not just POS fuels. These are building materials as well. And their importance will increase, not just with the introduction of the player-owned custom office, but also with others. A new item group for Orbital Infrastructure will be created. This will include the new Custom Office, but also the new Orbital Command structure. I expect more structures will appear that can be used to upgrade a solar system. It seems logical to asume that these structures will also require PI materials (and FW/Incursion LP for the BPCs).


Well, that would be more true if newer recipes would include a mix of traditional stuff like minerals as well as using the PI produced items. It feels like the PI materials live in their own little silo where traditional components aren't available (and vice-versa).

For instance, why does the new POCO base item not require any tritanium or pyerite or (whatever) at all?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1519 - 2011-10-27 13:56:37 UTC
Production of P1 and P2 commodities that are POS Fuel do not require imports if set up properly, and with the right skill levels - they only need to be exported.

P3 Commodities can not be processed up without importing P2 Commodities to planet - Robotics is the only P3 Commodity that is POS fuel.

For those that only view PI as a POS fuel source, there is little to no problem as PCO's will only be needed for production of Robotics. All other POS Fuels can be rocket launched.

Nothing really difficult here...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kevin Thoughts
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1520 - 2011-10-27 14:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kevin Thoughts
I'm a relatively new player, being on EVE for a few months now. I've recently grown to the point where PI has become possible for me. I enjoy it a lot, even wrote a newbies guide to PI that got reasonable reviews (http://www.kevinsthoughts.com/?p=435).

I have a few concerns:

1) Is the "50% of all PI is done in high-sec" based on solid data or just an educated guess? Because...

2) When this goes live, PI in low-sec and below will be virtually stopped. Without custom offices, importation will not be possible, so grinding out P4 products will simply cease. I would suggest that Concord custom offices only be destroyed when a Corporation upgrades a gantry to a fully functional CO.

3) This is going to be really bad for small corporations focused on PI. I'm figuring to create the P4s needed to simply build a POCO will require 7 characters and something like 28 PI infrastructures spread over 11 planets. Now one player with 3 accounts could do this, but its more likely that a small corporation would currently take on such a task. The hundreds of M ISK needed to set it up is a LOT to us. That's OK, gives us something to look forward to - a reasonable goal. However, there is no way we could defend, or afford to hire mercs to defend, such an infrastructure. I would recommend that (3) levels of COs be established: Concord in High-Sec, Restricted in Low-Sec (Max tariff at 20%, can not block access, can not be attacked), as planned in null-sec and WH space. We CAN afford to build these - we have time - but we could never afford the billion+ ISK to buy that - and I suspect many a medium size corp would think twice about it given the risk. Likewise, we are too new to have the skills to fly reppers much less defend such stations. Was it really the intent to shut down another section of EVE to newer players to entertain older ones?

4) The comment that "little guys should stick to high-sec" was insulting. Been there, did that. Quickly moved to low-sec for yields. Doing so was a great "coming of age" stepping stone for me and in fact resulted in my creation of a 3rd account. Never would have done that if restricted to high-sec.

Overall concerned about the slow decline in pilot numbers I think I see happening. EVE has very few things players a few months old can do successfully. The game needs more of these "semi-new" player areas, not less. As planned, this patch will tell us again "Sorry... unless your a lifer here in a huge corp, this is not for you".