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Vargur.
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NoNah
Hyper-Nova
#61 - 2013-02-11 09:58:28 UTC
Skimmed through the thread, admitably didn't read a fraction of the posts. But it's still really interesting to me that people even consider the vargur for anything manually flown, while the mach is what it is.

Paladin and Golem remain valid marauders, for the other two... narrow and very specific pvp scenarios, possibly.

Didn't you quite again anyway Liang? ;)
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-02-11 12:14:42 UTC
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
I'd like to see a slight grid boost for Vargur so it can comfortably fit 4 ACs, XL booster, and prop. Doesn't need to be anywhere close to fitting 1400s.



But... it's already able to do this


It barely fits with ab as prop, no cap booster. It doesn't fit with ab with cap booster. It doesn't fit with mwd.
Hulasikaly Wada
DO.IT
I.N.D.E.P.E.N.D.E.N.T
#63 - 2013-02-11 12:34:57 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
I'd like to see a slight grid boost for Vargur so it can comfortably fit 4 ACs, XL booster, and prop. Doesn't need to be anywhere close to fitting 1400s.



But... it's already able to do this


It barely fits with ab as prop, no cap booster. It doesn't fit with ab with cap booster. It doesn't fit with mwd.


A medium cap booster t2 will fit even with ab and a projectile rig fitted ( yes, without rig skill to lvl 5 ) , and its enought to cap stable

About the MWD you need to spend money in low fit DED moduleds and ok it doesn't fit with the cap booster

Ofcourse Vargus is small on fits, or RR/cap transfers will make it too much dualboxed easy "i will button" and its already close


Hula
Hulasikaly Wada
DO.IT
I.N.D.E.P.E.N.D.E.N.T
#64 - 2013-02-11 12:51:35 UTC
[Vargur, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Core C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II



This fit with a 5% pwgrid implant and its cap stable ( 75% ) if you turn off the mwd
( and i will be glad to invest in this implant if i was after this )
Plus remenber this setup have already 300 + of omnitank without cap booster and still 1 spare rig100point free for what ever you like

Hula
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#65 - 2013-02-11 18:17:18 UTC
I know that some were disappointed when they first tried to fit a Vargur because they'd been working with Tempests and Maels up until that point, with 1400mm Arties.

However, beyond the larger damage messages I don't see the need for a ship obviously designed as an AC boat (tracking bonus, ROF bonus, falloff bonus) to fit Artillery.

More confusing is that the OP seems to be arguing against herself, particularly claiming that its tracking isn't good enough when compared to dual vindi-webs while simultaneously requesting that the slowest tracking weapons be a viable option.
(Personally I load mine with 650s and the tracking is awesome - I lose a tiny amount of DPS when reloading is factored in and a bit of range but, at 50km or so (IIRC) there's nothing I can't hit - in fact, I'm going to have to take that out again, it's been too long since I last flew it).

The PvP comparrison is also erroneous, the Kronos was (not sure if it still is) more used in PvP than PvE but everytime I've seen it it's been in a ghetto-Vindicator, face-melting, Blaster configuration - which is where the Vargur would be making out best with ACs...

On the other hand, if it did receive a fitting bonus to fitting 1400s which made such a fitting viable as a straight swap for the 800s in current AC fits I'm pretty sure it wouldn't break things - although I'm also pretty sure that it would be a niche, all but unused fitting, flown only by those who insisted that any Matari ship they flew must have 1400s... It would, after all, be rather subpar and almost entirely replacable with the Mael.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2013-02-11 19:50:27 UTC
After reading all four pages of this thread, I still can figure out what the the problem with the Vargur is supposed to be, aside from the OP can't fit it exactly the way they feel it should be fit.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-02-11 19:53:00 UTC
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
I'd like to see a slight grid boost for Vargur so it can comfortably fit 4 ACs, XL booster, and prop. Doesn't need to be anywhere close to fitting 1400s.



But... it's already able to do this


It barely fits with ab as prop, no cap booster. It doesn't fit with ab with cap booster. It doesn't fit with mwd.


A medium cap booster t2 will fit even with ab and a projectile rig fitted ( yes, without rig skill to lvl 5 ) , and its enought to cap stable

About the MWD you need to spend money in low fit DED moduleds and ok it doesn't fit with the cap booster

Ofcourse Vargus is small on fits, or RR/cap transfers will make it too much dualboxed easy "i will button" and its already close


Hula


Yes, I know Gist XL takes far less grid than regular XL to fit, it also boosts like a Large instead of XL and costs 2 bil.

Yes, I know a cruiser sized medium cap booster easily fits on a BS. But what's wrong with a BS fitting with BS sized mods?

It takes only a slight grid increase to have BS sized models fit properly, with 4 short range guns. That's short range, not long, and ACs, which takes the least grid among gun categories. Hardly unreasonable.
chris elliot
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#68 - 2013-02-11 22:08:36 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:


Like pvp and wh content as well as incursions where arty boats are staple ship in all reality.




Woah woah woah woah, stop right there.

Arty's are most definitely not staples in wormholes. In fact outside of a few very tiny niche roles they are a terrible choice for wormhole pve as a whole. As for pvp, artillery is the worst choice you could make for a battleship or any ship in wormhole space really. Even more so with a shiny thing like a vargur.


Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#69 - 2013-02-11 22:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
chris elliot wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:


Like pvp and wh content as well as incursions where arty boats are staple ship in all reality.




Woah woah woah woah, stop right there.

Arty's are most definitely not staples in wormholes. In fact outside of a few very tiny niche roles they are a terrible choice for wormhole pve as a whole. As for pvp, artillery is the worst choice you could make for a battleship or any ship in wormhole space really. Even more so with a shiny thing like a vargur.




ok you got point on wh it isn't that used i did try everything tho from solo C2 arty hurricane to 1400mm mail and pests found them lacking due to tracking mainly

I also mentioned pvp and anything from blap nados to alpha fleets including incursions where no alpha boat means u go home empty pockets...all in effort to support my claim as to why on earth i would want ship to be able to fit both gun types because apatently it is not normal for single ship to do so...never did i say that pvp vargur is a must rather i stated if you can no one is stoping you.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Mark Blema
#70 - 2013-02-24 06:54:49 UTC
Having flown the Vargur for the better part of 2 years I say this with all my hearts. "OP shut up, you don't understand the boat and you had better get out of my ship before you embarrass yourself"

That said. Everyone is right in telling you the Vargur is a Autocannon boat. With 800's I was running plex's and Anoms in angels space, killing rats at 80km away (plenty fine range if you ask me) I pulled in 40mil per tick (only thing better than me was a carrier but that's changing ship class and comparing apples to oranges)

No, I repeat NO! Vargur captain would be caught dead with arties on his Vargur... To do so would be stupid. Here is why.

1) The cycle time doesn't make up for the dmg done. PERIOD!

2) The need to kill at that range is made moot when the Npcs get in under your range because of your cycle time

3) Your tracking blows... B L O W S!!!! lemme say it again It blows... you need 2 or 3 tracking mods on it with auto cannons and they already track good. WTH makes you think arties would be the answer you would need like 90 tracking mods on your boat plus 4 to 5 dozen squads of 4x tl scimis at lvl5 to make arties even viable....

4) THE FREAKING CYCLE TIME!!!! Frigs would for sure be under your guns before you could lock them (cause ccp figured i needed a coffee machine over a sensor suite) And with the new NPC AI you can't use drones to kill said frigs so your scrammed and dead (you loose btw) Also if a cruiser or smaller target moved at a transversial of even 100m/sec you can't hit them (see #3)

5) Most importantly you can't get arties on a vargur because you fail at eve... I recommend biomass and uninstall. At the very least do all of us vargur flyers a break and stop flying them. Cause your going to have a bad time.




TL;DR OP doesn't understand vargurs and needs to either read and listen to us or biomass and uninstall
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#71 - 2013-02-24 07:25:27 UTC
You sound upset and ignorant

Nobody forcing you to use artys fit lollypops and shoot that if you feel the need as long as you have ability to do so i am fine with it,

Vargur cant use t2 artys and that is my issue so you can flush your 5 irrelevant points and don't be plain just because you cant and in all truth didn't use arty on vargur it doesn't mean that it don't work news flash there is pve beyond realm of doing l4.

Vargur is brutal arty boat you tool but it is nerfed long time ago before all weapons get their upgrade as well as some ships and i think for amount of skils for ship and guns there should be reward for player of actually using those skills..wait for it..................

LIKE every other ship of its class or pirate ship for that matter or faction ship for that matter or possibly good chunk of basic t1 battleship for that matter.

So we are on different sides here i want for ship to be able and you don't ..because of your 800working in plex /L4 / whatever totally not the point,point is you are blind looking at my first post because you are oh so pro AC user lol give me a brake.

Thanks bye!

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#72 - 2013-02-24 08:18:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
@ Jacob

Hi Jacob most of your posted is discussed somewhere in thread so i will not go over them again just this two:

"However, beyond the larger damage messages I don't see the need for a ship obviously designed as an AC boat (tracking bonus, ROF bonus, falloff bonus) to fit Artillery."

First alpha matters a lot! in pvp is used almost all the time small medium or large it is used a lot so i am not so easy on dismissing it as weapon system as you are.It is used in pve too.

2nd can you plz point me on minmatar sniper/arty battleship and show me dose different bonuses that are for arty boats because i think that falloff do same thing to ac as to arty..same goes for rof and same goes for tracking..and let me remind you that absolutely best arty boat isk can buy is machariel that have same bonuses basically.

It also happens to be that Mach is absolute king in AC/Arty so unless ship bonuses change depending on weapons you fit on ship id say you didn't make much sense but i hope you will sling your answer, it can be i didn't see arty bonus on it all this years.

Last point PVE or more to the point incursions.

" More confusing is that the OP seems to be arguing against herself, particularly claiming that its tracking isn't good enough when compared to dual vindi-webs while simultaneously requesting that the slowest tracking weapons be a viable option. "

Varg cant compete with raw Vindi dps and when you toss in dual/triple webs Vindi is and will continue to be absolute king in brawling there is LITERALLY no reason to pick AC Mach/Pulse NM/or AC lol Vargur if you have Vindi pilots on stand by...none

But what Vindi and NM cant do is inflict alpha strike like Mach and Varg can and i am talking INCURSIONS fleet now where 10-80 ppl fleet in. And i have issue seeing only 3 boats in top end class Mach/Vindi/NM they all serve its role in fleets and if not for nerf on Vargur PG it could ~mach machariel as cheaper tiny less dps ship but would open top end ships by a slot.

So my point is that Varg can offer ppl a choice if going in incursion fleet

1) To be last possible pick if fielding AC(and i know how much ship is used in fleet i run with and every possible fleet i saw on gates and or sites very seldom).Machariel will be picked up sooner it is faster more agile more dps more drones more everything when using AC.

2) Or it can be competitive arty platform to machariel for ppl that didn't train gall ships(and its tracking bonus set it apart from machariel) or just want to fly vertical cyber gun/roman empire helmet looking internet space ship.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2013-02-24 10:46:13 UTC
matar qq... comeon the vargur is the BEST marauder and the BEST solo pve ship by a huge margin and they whine they cant fit it with t2 1400arties ,which was never intended to be able to be done, oh these matars are rly super spoiled kiddoes
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#74 - 2013-02-24 11:08:46 UTC
Lots of sacrifice's to make when fitting out a tachy pally.

Also, OP, most enemies spawn within 50KM range, just use the auto's, the varg is no worse then a pally, it cant be.
stoicfaux
#75 - 2013-02-24 14:26:14 UTC
Take a Vargur or Tempest with a TE II, 2x TC IIs with optimal, load up an EFT damage chart, and you'll see:
* 800 ACs do more DPS than 1200s out to ~49km
* 800 ACs do more DPS than 1400s out to ~43km
* 800 ACs do more DPS than a 1400 Tempest out to ~58km.

Is there a reason to use artillery over ACs on a Vargur in PvE? Meh, can't see a reason outside of an edge case or two. Either let the faster moving NPCs come to you, or MJD into range.

Is the Vargur's PG a bit tight? Yes, especially if you try to fit a MJD, MWD or cap booster. A deadspace shield booster is pretty much a necessity. I can see the argument for buffing the PG.

Is there a reason to fit a MWD on a Vargur (or Marauders in general?) Given that it takes two cycles to get up to speed, the top speed is ~1km/s, it burns through cap, and it's unlikely you'll be able to fit a cap booster, using an MWD isn't really an option. Even with a PG buff that enables MWD+Cap Booster fits, I just can't get excited about watching a flying barn wallow around like a beached whale when running a MWD. (If you want speed, get a Mach.)

tl;dr - Arty is whatever, PG needs a bit of a buff to fit any combination of PG hungry prop mods, cap booster, and/or large and XL shields without

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#76 - 2013-02-24 15:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
He he i lold at flying barn...

I use arty Varg for almost a year now if not more and mwd is a must if you think Vargur got it hard on cap imagine squad of vindi or NM's constantly broadcasting for cap draining Basi pilots.

Both mach and varg are easy on cap and i did find the way to fit all in mwd scenario on top if my first post with pic you need to waste another low slot for rly expensive PDU or reactor control and that is only if you slot in faction arty guns.

Machariel. note the dps,shield HP and that it fits like a glove.

Vargur note lack of dps lack of shield hp it need to use storyline mwd it cant fit any high mods all while using two slots for PG mods denying it TE and making it worse in any scenario than Mach.

Now i wouldn't say a bit tight it is outright massacred on PG.

And i am not saying give ship 3ple ASB + rack of heavy neuts and mwd + mjd like some posters here said i want...just give it a brake by allowing it to fit stuff .

But all in all this thread is up for some time now i didn't get response i was looking for from ppl that know and thread escalated in return in pointless repeating of my self and ppl in it about their opinions about what vargur is and what it isn't.

I don't see point of re-rolling this any further.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Mark Blema
#77 - 2013-02-24 15:38:30 UTC
Quote:
You sound upset and ignorant

Nobody forcing you to use artys fit lollypops and shoot that if you feel the need as long as you have ability to do so i am fine with it,


I think you're trying to talk to yourself. Because I never actually wanted to use arties. Honestly I'm guessing google translate isn't helping you there.

Quote:
Vargur cant use t2 artys and that is my issue so you can flush your 5 irrelevant points and don't be plain just because you cant and in all truth didn't use arty on vargur it doesn't mean that it don't work news flash there is pve beyond realm of doing l4


Like running in null which is what I was talking about. Or running in incursions. And the Vargur I saw in incursions was an 800AC vargur because they DESTROY at close range. Because people other than you understand that you only need 800 AC's on there.

Quote:
Vargur is brutal arty boat you tool but it is nerfed long time ago before all weapons get their upgrade as well as some ships and i think for amount of skils for ship and guns there should be reward for player of actually using those skills..wait for it..................

LIKE every other ship of its class or pirate ship for that matter or faction ship for that matter or possibly good chunk of basic t1 battleship for that matter.


I actually agree with you on that matter. See when you let this personality out of the box we very much agree. It's the only thing I agree with though. Vargur still doesn't need to fly with arties, ready my 5 points.

Quote:
So we are on different sides here i want for ship to be able and you don't ..because of your 800working in plex /L4 / whatever totally not the point,point is you are blind looking at my first post because you are oh so pro AC user lol give me a brake.

Thanks bye!


I've actually spent time and trained up my T2 arty skill. I know what kind of face melting power they have.. A Mach with 1400's is a monster to be feared whilst on a Roam... if the fleet can support it. But that's the thing. the mach is a versital ship by design. The Vargur isn't, and you seem to not understand that. There are ships in eve that have roles. For the Vargur that role is PvE in nature... Can other Maurders do other things? OF COARSE HEY CAN.... but they aren't the Vargur.

I know it's a different class but compare the Arbitrator to the Vexor. You'll be sad if you try to fit one like the other... Why? Because the Vexor is meant for one thing while the Arbi is meant for another.

Much like the Vargur to the Mach (or kronos, pally, golem, mach, snake, balag, vindi, CNR, ect, ect, ect Basically any battleship) If you let the Vargur live in it's 800 AC role it nearly out performs most of if not all of those other battleships... but much like I've seen on the internet all over the place, "if you judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree, you'll be disappointed every time". Fish don't climb trees and Vargurs don't fly Arty.

Keep all that in mind before you try it.

And to concede yes, the Vargur can benefit from a PG boost. How much I leave in the hands of CCP.
Mark Blema
#78 - 2013-02-24 15:42:32 UTC
Also quickly. I see your mach vs. vargur post there... Vargur makes up for it with T2 resistances Mach won't ever get that baseline shield resist. Again apples to oranges... Vargur doesn't equal mach and mach doesn't equal vargur...
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#79 - 2013-02-24 16:05:30 UTC
Mark Blema wrote:
Also quickly. I see your mach vs. vargur post there... Vargur makes up for it with T2 resistances Mach won't ever get that baseline shield resist. Again apples to oranges... Vargur doesn't equal mach and mach doesn't equal vargur...


You are right but i am talking about fitting ships nothing more so you are wrong again..i don't care what mach is or is not..but fitting ships is pretty much universal we seems to agree on that part.

Also mach doesn't need to have same rez it have extra shield extender in hit points to boot its not like it suffers in any way,god forbid that is.


So lets just compute this for you almost all battleship are able to use both weapon types when you put your advanced skills to boot + some help with implants that include marauders..but vargur does not because it is marauder?erm it is marauder sub class of marauders?is it OP everyone and their mother fly it in PVE or PVP?Will it become king of either if it was allowed to be proper ship?

Nope. it will not..so you think Vargur just need to be AC boat because of because? awww that's cute.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Mark Blema
#80 - 2013-02-24 18:27:52 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Mark Blema wrote:
Also quickly. I see your mach vs. vargur post there... Vargur makes up for it with T2 resistances Mach won't ever get that baseline shield resist. Again apples to oranges... Vargur doesn't equal mach and mach doesn't equal vargur...


You are right but i am talking about fitting ships nothing more so you are wrong again..i don't care what mach is or is not..but fitting ships is pretty much universal we seems to agree on that part.

Also mach doesn't need to have same rez it have extra shield extender in hit points to boot its not like it suffers in any way,god forbid that is.


So lets just compute this for you almost all battleship are able to use both weapon types when you put your advanced skills to boot + some help with implants that include marauders..but vargur does not because it is marauder?erm it is marauder sub class of marauders?is it OP everyone and their mother fly it in PVE or PVP?Will it become king of either if it was allowed to be proper ship?

Nope. it will not..so you think Vargur just need to be AC boat because of because? awww that's cute.



What?