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Vargur.

Author
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#81 - 2013-02-24 18:34:18 UTC
¯\(°_o)/¯

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

PsyDrakoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2013-03-05 04:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: PsyDrakoon
Hi everyone... first.. sorry for my bad english.. not my main language.

I fly Vargur also a Machariel, both are great Ships.

And for me its ok that Vargur cant fit Artys. 800AC are still great.

But what i reaaaaaaaly dont understand is:

1. Why does Vargur loose in DPS against Machariel? not much but still ~150 DPS lesser then the Machariel.
2. Why is the Scanresolution so damn crapy? it takes tooo long for Targeting.

Vargur is a T2 Ship, DpS, Tank, Shield HP, Armor, Hull, Scannresolution should all be better compared with a T1 Ship.

Lets Compare the Tech 2 Marauder Vargur with a Tech1 Tempest Fleet.

Tempest Fleet has more Drone Cargo, better Scanresolution, More Shield/Armor/Hull HP then a Vargur.

Sure Vargus has a really nice falloff bonus, and other beneftits.
but still, i think a Tech 2 Battleship should be better than this.

First, why the Hell has a Vargur only 75m2 Dronecargo? even a Machariel has 125m2 or Tempest Fleet 100m2.
Scanresolution of 85mm is for a Tech 2 Battleship way to low.


I am the only one whi think so, or am im totaly wrong?

Dont get me wrong, i dont want a Vargur with 3000omni Tank and 1500 DPS.. sure not.
But at last, same ammount of Shield/Armor/Hull HP like the Tempest Fleet, Better scanresolution and more Dronebay.


and about the Tractorbeam Bonus... buff that pls... in a World with a Noctis with 96km Range and 2000m/s Tractorbeamspeed, noone wil Salvage with a Vargur... not enough Drone Bay for Salvage Drones and the Tractorbeam sucks,,,


cya ;)
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-03-05 06:22:50 UTC
I thought this thread was dead, w/e

Im curious to how you all want to fit your 1400 arti vargurs,
That tachy paly always makes me cringe a little but then i laugh, its insane.
i love it, really.
The op's tach paly fitting
[Paladin, New Setup 1]
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Large Energy Transfer Array
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

heres the comparable vargur fitting
[Vargur, Vargur fit]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Reactor Control Unit II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Large Ancillary Current Router II
Large Ancillary Current Router I

the tracking for the 1400 is 0.00069 worse then the palys tachs
no implants are used for either fittings.

Vargur
10391 volley 627 dps @33x66 , 94,339 ehp (16063 shield) scan res 170

Paladin (from op)
5670 Volley 849 dps @43x41 , 81,546 ehp (14138 shield) scan res 243

Sttill dont know why youd fit a ship like that

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#84 - 2013-03-05 06:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
@ PsyDrakon

Vargur have fastest targeting of 4 marauders and in general Marauders have low rez but high targeting range + they can target 10..other side of spectrum are pirate ships higher rez offset by lower targeting range and less active targets.

I would like faster lock but Vargur got best from rest of group so cant complain rly.

Same goes for hit points marauders have Dual tank bonus one is shield rez 2nd it active boost bonus you would need to loose something there to bring hit points in line to faction/pirate hulls.but having all goodies at the same time would be OP.

They do have more hit points then basic t1 hulls though.

Drone hold is small on all of em but Kronos,i would like 100/125 to rest of em

Tbh i would give up tractor beam gizmo and drop high slot for other improvements to marauder class like mentioned drone bay end removing ECM fatality they currently have..let Noctis be Noctis but that's me.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-03-05 06:47:32 UTC
Oh, also, To fit a comparable tank to a xl shield boosted 1400 arti vargur, on a tachy paladin youd need a bunch of fitting mods. two LAR and the requisite cap boosters do not fit easy .

For a 620 shield tank which the vargur can do with 1400 and an ab, it takes three rcu and a grid rig,
for a 651 armor tank which the paladin can do with tacheyons and an ab it takes two RCU and a grid rig.

the vargur using one large cap booster, ab, xl-sb II
with the paladin using one large and one medium, Ab . 2x LAR II

the vargur gets a tiny bit more scan res but looses out on dps to the paladin by 20 points, while more then doubling the volley.

the kronos on the other hand is a lot simpler to fit then either vargur or paladin. and can get numbers similar in performance with a single rig.

kronos one large cap booster , 425 rails, ab, 2x lar II

this was a good diversion from what i was supposed to be doing

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

PsyDrakoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2013-03-05 06:49:06 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
I thought this thread was dead, w/e

Im curious to how you all want to fit your 1400 arti vargurs,
That tachy paly always makes me cringe a little but then i laugh, its insane.
i love it, really.
The op's tach paly fitting
[Paladin, New Setup 1]
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Large Energy Transfer Array
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

heres the comparable vargur fitting
[Vargur, Vargur fit]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Reactor Control Unit II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Large Ancillary Current Router II
Large Ancillary Current Router I

the tracking for the 1400 is 0.00069 worse then the palys tachs
no implants are used for either fittings.

Vargur
10391 volley 627 dps @33x66 , 94,339 ehp (16063 shield) scan res 170

Paladin (from op)
5670 Volley 849 dps @43x41 , 81,546 ehp (14138 shield) scan res 243

Sttill dont know why youd fit a ship like that



You never ever Fit a Vargur like that,

You wil make with a Tempest Fleet more DpS, and alot mor EHP.

And why should i fit buffer Shield if Vargur have big Bonus on Shieldbooster?

Sure it would be nice to fit at least 1200mm Artys. (like Clear Skies movies :D )

but anyway.^^
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#87 - 2013-03-05 06:58:03 UTC
"You never ever Fit a Vargur like that,"

Of course you don't it is god damn misery to look at.

Also Pali fit is bad if you fly one fly armor,but it can be done and it served the purpose of fitting all guns and all needed tank to survive certain things before reps get you nothing else.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Songbird
#88 - 2013-03-05 07:56:26 UTC
The official projectile fit for incursions is the artillery, which fit just fine on a mach. We're talking distances of about 120 km here. We're also talking massive ammo savings , arties use 5x less ammo than the AC's. Now vargur with it's longer locking range, bonus to tracking and lower price would make a great incursion boat. Sure, it gets remote repped so it doesn't use it's local rep bonus but it has slightly better resists and more mids than the machariel. Also it has the same falloff bonus as the machariel...
Except it cannot fit the guns.

So the guy is not trolling.

Also, whoever thinks serious high sec pve has something to do with lvl 4 missions is mistaken. In other words the pve designed boat cannot be used in pve fleets.

I hope this puts your doubts to rest, when you're considering if you should take this thread seriously.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#89 - 2013-03-05 14:23:47 UTC
You guys really made me wanna buy and undock Vargur now :)

Ok, sorry for crushing the party, I will see myself to the door.

Invalid signature format

Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#90 - 2013-03-05 17:59:54 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

Marauders are under performing in PVE(missions and everything else pve) and PVP to pirate counterparts and that is ok?


By all accounts (including CCP) the answer is yes, with the machariel scheduled to get some very slight nerfs.
PsyDrakoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-03-05 18:25:27 UTC
Kodama Ikari wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

Marauders are under performing in PVE(missions and everything else pve) and PVP to pirate counterparts and that is ok?


By all accounts (including CCP) the answer is yes, with the machariel scheduled to get some very slight nerfs.



I dont get it, why is it ok that a Marauder is underperforming Pirate BS in PvE?

Whats the reason then for spend time skilling Marauder if they are anyway loosing against Pirate BS?

maybe im just stupid, but i tought its so

Example Minmatar:

Typhoon, Tempest, Maelstrom < Fleet Tempest, Typhoon < Machariel < Vargur

so should it be i tought. whats the reason to skill Tech 2 Ships if they are loosing agains Tech 1 Ship even if they are Faction?

Is Loki or Tengu underperforming Faction Cruiser or the other T2 Cruiser? i dont think so.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#92 - 2013-03-05 19:02:59 UTC
Ship rebalancing is on its way up the chain and I'm sure after command ships they'll rebalance marauders.

Not today spaghetti.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#93 - 2013-03-05 19:15:03 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Ship rebalancing is on its way up the chain and I'm sure after command ships they'll rebalance marauders.


Maybe I should train Marauders 5 on Liang... >:-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#94 - 2013-03-05 19:16:07 UTC
PsyDrakoon wrote:
I dont get it, why is it ok that a Marauder is underperforming Pirate BS in PvE?

Whats the reason then for spend time skilling Marauder if they are anyway loosing against Pirate BS?

maybe im just stupid, but i tought its so

Example Minmatar:

Typhoon, Tempest, Maelstrom < Fleet Tempest, Typhoon < Machariel < Vargur

so should it be i tought. whats the reason to skill Tech 2 Ships if they are loosing agains Tech 1 Ship even if they are Faction?

Is Loki or Tengu underperforming Faction Cruiser or the other T2 Cruiser? i dont think so.


I think that claiming the Vargur underperforms agains the Mach is narrow sighted. There are many types of PVE content that the Vargur is much better suited to than the Mach.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#95 - 2013-03-05 19:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodama Ikari
PsyDrakoon wrote:

I dont get it, why is it ok that a Marauder is underperforming Pirate BS in PvE?

Whats the reason then for spend time skilling Marauder if they are anyway loosing against Pirate BS?


I was first going to say that the skill differences are negligible, since the getting the lvl 5 battleship skill is very important for the faction BS as well, but pirate BS are so easy on fittings, if you just train for pirate BS you may not train AWU 5 or EGU 5. Regardless, t2 ships require lvl 5 support skills and lvl 5 ship skill. Faction/Pirate ships never require 5's. That's just how it is. That said, the guy in the pirate cruiser/bs is still missing out if he doesn't have good skills.


Quote:
so should it be i tought. whats the reason to skill Tech 2 Ships if they are loosing agains Tech 1 Ship even if they are Faction?
No one ever gave up training minmatar cruiser 5 because they could fly the cynabal without it. It doesn't matter that a pirate ship beats a t2 ship, it doesn't make the t2 ship not useful. This maybe hard to see from a max-pimp max-performance Its-never-gonna-explode-anyway PVE environment. It doesn't really matter if pirate BS are better 9 out of 10 times than the marauders, because the pirate BS are practically a fixed supply, with the price skyrocketing if the current meta game favors them. The lower sp threshold and superior performance come at a price. Specifically, 450m extra.

Quote:
Is Loki or Tengu underperforming Faction Cruiser or the other T2 Cruiser? i dont think so.

You're saying that the marauders should be better than pirate BS because they're t2, and justyfing it with "t3 perform better than pirate and t2" This is a nonsense comparison and you know it.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#96 - 2013-03-05 20:36:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Ship rebalancing is on its way up the chain and I'm sure after command ships they'll rebalance marauders.


Maybe I should train Marauders 5 on Liang... >:-)

-Liang


With Marauders V and all racial BS to V on three accounts, I've been waiting a while for a buff to Marauders.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#97 - 2013-03-05 20:54:02 UTC
I don't mind. I don't have a whole hell of a lot left to train on subcaps. Besides, Marauders >> Faction BS in WHs. At least, for lower class ones, I don't know much about high class wormholes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#98 - 2013-03-05 23:28:35 UTC
I wouldn't mind a buff, but they still have their uses.

The blaster Kronos is awesome in a Gurista Forsaken Hub - the lower ammo consumption is very nice when using Void. The bonused web is nice too for keeping them in range.

The Paladin is unmatched in Drone ratting.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#99 - 2013-03-05 23:58:51 UTC
I really like Marauders for wormhole work. Sure, it's a shiny but it's got the utility highs without sacrificing DPS.

-Liang

Ed: They're also pretty baller in pirate nullsec missions and level 5s.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.