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Vargur.

Author
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#41 - 2013-02-11 00:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Blaster Kroni problem is Vindicator it is just better pvp/pve doesnt matter.

And Vindicator will roflstomp varg ...NPC use traversal and mwd Vindi will end up applaying more dps due to webs that will stop target and then it is let me just apply this 1700 dps in you face against Vargur ~900?


Using a blaster Vindicator in wormhole content (which you bring up) is absolutely ********. The AC Vargur is superior in every possible way.

-Liang

Ed: Actually, maybe a blaster Vindi does alright in high level C5/C6 wormholes with capital escalations. I'm sure all the rats spawn on top of you and you're not webbed to **** and never able to apply any DPS.


Agreed i was talking about inc here..there is also pvp part of wh and i can think of more used ships than Varg there too :)

And also still fact remain Varg pg don't allow 1400mm artys,not because it will be superior it is just it is good with AC and i must say that is kinda funny because i dont think 1400mm can outclass other long range weapons in everything including missions.

at least in my opinion.and should that be reason enough for vargur nerf.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#42 - 2013-02-11 00:52:55 UTC
Let me make sure I understand this then. You mention Vargurs in WH PVP, but don't explain why it would fare worse than the Kronos, Paladin, or Golem. My personal experience is that the Vargur is sufficient to superior here, neglecting the obvious problems with sensor strength they all have.

Thus, your entire argument for why the Vargur needs 1400s comes down to "because" and "Incursions", and then you go on to say that the Arty Vargur would at best be a side-grade to the AC Vargur in Incursions. That means that the real answer for why you want a 1400 Vargur is just because and at least in my opinion.

These have typically not been good reasons to change the balance of a game.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#43 - 2013-02-11 01:08:03 UTC
"Let me make sure I understand this then. You mention Vargurs in WH PVP, but don't explain why it would fare worse than the Kronos, Paladin, or Golem. My personal experience is that the Vargur is sufficient to superior here, neglecting the obvious problems with sensor strength they all have." - pirate hull both are being used on both inc and wh.

Your entire argument is it is good with ac for missions.

Mine is it is ship like rest of marauders and they can use their long range variants. like pretty much any ships in eve here is one example..navy domi you want this ship full t2 rails + all drone dmg tank and what not can you fit it of course not but can you invest in implants ie buy everything eve have to make it happen..yes you can

In vargur case no you cant you need chelm to boot even if you wasted one slot already on pg mod + all possible implants.

That sound a tad overkill for not much gain in overall dmg but hey that's me..i dont find your explanation of best marauder l4 mission runner very good..because it will NOT outperform say tachyon paly both in their respectable spaces.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#44 - 2013-02-11 01:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
No, that is not my entire argument. My argument is that the Vargur is competitive with all other Marauders, and that marauders are generally competitive in "PVE content". The idea that Marauders are not the ultimate carebearmobile for shiny incursion fleets doesn't really bother me overly much.

Moving on, you specifically cite that the Tach Paladin is superior to the AC Vargur, when each are in their respective "areas". You seem to be of the opinion that the Vargur needs no fitting mod 1400mm Artillery fits to be "competitive". I believe this argument to be a bad argument on a game design front.

We've already covered the fact that the AC vargur is superior to the Tach Paladin for a wide array of PVE content (almost all of it, really). The idea that the Paladin has a narrow zone of superiority is very acceptable. It would be very poor game balancing indeed if, as you state, an Arty Vargur would remove or even greatly impinge upon that area of superiority.

-Liang

Ed: I do have to wonder why you aren't complaining about the Kronos inability to viably use short range weapons? Maybe the Kronos should have a 5000% role bonus to blaster range?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#45 - 2013-02-11 01:41:31 UTC
Honestly, my advice to you is to ask for what you actually want. If you want to say that the Vargur (and hopefully Marauders in general!) need a boost for PVP then I'm sure you won't see a whole lot of push back for that. But really, just say so. The whole argument that there's this PVE hole that you can't fill with the Vargur because you desperately need 1400 Artillery with no fitting mods seems really weak (at best).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#46 - 2013-02-11 01:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
"No, that is not my entire argument. My argument is that the Vargur is competitive with all other Marauders, and that marauders are generally competitive in "PVE content". The idea that Marauders are not the ultimate carebearmobile for shiny incursion fleets doesn't really bother me overly much."

And mine is they all can use skilled weapons and varg cant due to pg blocking it and even if it is not the case 1400mm varg couldn't be better than tach due to low dps low tracking and not much of optimal where tach paly choose what to shoot and when.

Tach pali will outperform ac vargur in shooting long range targets that is clear as day in incursion they stay there ie dumb mission mechanic of cattle to slaughter cant be considered.and i will go and say with web bonus of some 21-27km or more(depends of gear and booster) (pulse)it can over dps vargur in total dmg done very much as same as kronos and vindicatr will.

Meta 4 1400mm guns cant compare they lack dmg from get go.

"We've already covered the fact that the AC vargur" i didn't say that did i?

Lol Kroni can use short range weapons just fine i did fly it for about 6months i believe dual webs 4 mags sebo/sig amp...thing is no matter what u fit on it marauders have 18 slots + 2 rigs

pirate ships have 20 slots + 3 rig slots and to top it all of they cary more drones fast as bwm turn like frigs lock faster than u can say"oh ****" and have ~one extender worth of hit point in shield/armor/hull oh they also happen to deal more dps.

And there you go ships that are made for pve are 2nd class in pve.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#47 - 2013-02-11 01:55:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Honestly, my advice to you is to ask for what you actually want. If you want to say that the Vargur (and hopefully Marauders in general!) need a boost for PVP then I'm sure you won't see a whole lot of push back for that. But really, just say so. The whole argument that there's this PVE hole that you can't fill with the Vargur because you desperately need 1400 Artillery with no fitting mods seems really weak (at best).

-Liang


Liang there is nothing wrong in asking that t2 ship fit t2 guns i would be here bitching for kroni/pali or golem if that was case.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#48 - 2013-02-11 02:00:36 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

And mine is they all can use skilled weapons and varg cant due to pg blocking it and even if it is not the case 1400mm varg couldn't be better than tach due to low dps low tracking and not much of optimal where tach paly choose what to shoot and when.


There are a great many ships that are not really capable of fitting one set of weapons or another. This isn't unusual or surprising, and does not break the balance of the game.

Quote:
... all about incursions and no other kind of PVE content ...


So your ultimate complaint is that the Vargur isn't hands down the best ship in the game for Incursions. Why aren't you using a pirate BS again?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#49 - 2013-02-11 02:01:06 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Honestly, my advice to you is to ask for what you actually want. If you want to say that the Vargur (and hopefully Marauders in general!) need a boost for PVP then I'm sure you won't see a whole lot of push back for that. But really, just say so. The whole argument that there's this PVE hole that you can't fill with the Vargur because you desperately need 1400 Artillery with no fitting mods seems really weak (at best).

-Liang


Liang there is nothing wrong in asking that t2 ship fit t2 guns i would be here bitching for kroni/pali or golem if that was case.


Then get to bitching about the Paladin.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#50 - 2013-02-11 02:04:23 UTC
i fly mach/vindi/bhaal/kronos/vargur

Saying that vargur is best or that i want it to be is well trolling it cant out dps many ships it cant out track many ships it cant out run many ships and making it able to use t2 guns like rest of em wont change that.

prove me wrong.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#51 - 2013-02-11 02:05:46 UTC
"Then get to bitching about the Paladin." as soon they nerf it pg il be there shaking fist and mention cancel all my accounts.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#52 - 2013-02-11 02:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
i fly mach/vindi/bhaal/kronos/vargur

Saying that vargur is best or that i want it to be is well trolling it cant out dps many ships it cant out track many ships it cant out run many ships and making it able to use t2 guns like rest of em wont change that.

prove me wrong.


Prove yourself right. Enumerate these ships that you think are superior at PVE, and why you think they're superior at PVE, and why you think boosting the Vargur to allow a fitting mod less 1400mm Arty fit would alleviate this problem.

-Liang

Ed:
Quote:
"Then get to bitching about the Paladin." as soon they nerf it pg il be there shaking fist and mention cancel all my accounts.


So... get to cancelling. The Paladin is pretty weak on the grid side of things as well. Your fit in the OP is a shield Paladin (lol).

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#53 - 2013-02-11 02:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
"and why you think boosting the Vargur to allow a fitting mod less 1400mm Arty fit would alleviate this problem."

This one is easy i think after ~year of flying both mach and varg that if it wore be able to fit 1400mm t2 variant it could be on par with Mach ONLY when using Arty weapons.

Why because raw dmg gap would be shorter and tracking bonus would help further to make Vargur even viable for pilots to consider to invest isk and training time.

I honestly dont think it will make gap in between rest of marauders bigger because arty well are kinda sucky BUT it can try to match Mach so both option are on table and ship pool is wider..mach would still dominate AC/MWD/PVP regular missions but vargur would have place too.

I think that it is simpler that try to fix all marauders and cant say i have fix for them other than outright buff to stats drone capacity etc

"So... get to cancelling. The Paladin is pretty weak on the grid side of things as well. Your fit in the OP is a shield Paladin (lol)."

my fit is pure dps pali that is in the wrong place doing shield inc..but it would work also armor can work too you only need stronger buffer if you doing HQ or mom site Default amount of armor hp give you enough time toss in slaves legion booster and you are golden...

And than toss in gen and pg implants and you have spare room....vargur on other hand.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#54 - 2013-02-11 02:43:57 UTC
There you go with this "I think" business but have no numbers or EFT fits or anything to back it up.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#55 - 2013-02-11 02:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Liang Nuren wrote:
There you go with this "I think" business but have no numbers or EFT fits or anything to back it up.

-Liang


C'mo they are pretty close ~100 dps difference(guns) 1000 alpha (t2 guns) tracking would even out it to some extent. i didn't save hits log but i can tell you varg score better on small/faster targets ie it will miss less. but lask raw power as well as using t2 ammo for bashing towers.

Also very first post i mention i don't mind sinking over half bill in fitting implants(i still need em to fit republic guns),but how many ppl will do the same=none.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#56 - 2013-02-11 02:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
No, I want you to provide specific fits and situations where this Arty Vargur would alleviate whatever problem trying to solve. You bring up POS bashing, but **** man, use lasers like everyone else.

-Liang

Ed: Remember, you're the one campaigning for a change here. It's not even a change to all the marauders (like making them PVP viable)... but a change to specifically the Vargur. A buff to what is a top tier contender in many people's minds for absolute best Marauder hands down.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#57 - 2013-02-11 03:01:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
It doesn't solve anything it just bring Vargur as one of ship to choose from raw dps alpha mach to tracking boosted alpha Vargur,both will be viable for community and pilots would opt in for cheaper but still effective ship.


Choice that is all right nao vargur cant cope with AC mach or short range anything but would have a chance @ long range.(if you dont need officer mods + all possible implants)...

Anyway not sure what more to say.

"Ed: Remember, you're the one campaigning for a change here. It's not even a change to all the marauders (like making them PVP viable)... but a change to specifically the Vargur. A buff to what is a top tier contender in many people's minds for absolute best Marauder hands down."


Not sure what to say except i agree they suck

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#58 - 2013-02-11 03:03:20 UTC
They're already both viable.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-02-11 04:14:16 UTC
I'd like to see a slight grid boost for Vargur so it can comfortably fit 4 ACs, XL booster, and prop. Doesn't need to be anywhere close to fitting 1400s.
Hulasikaly Wada
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-02-11 08:24:40 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
I'd like to see a slight grid boost for Vargur so it can comfortably fit 4 ACs, XL booster, and prop. Doesn't need to be anywhere close to fitting 1400s.



But... it's already able to do this

About the OP .. its more about the ALPHA problem more than fitting/range/dps about the 1400s
Even the Tornado can NOT without mods...

and yeah, Vargur is already the best even if it can not snipe


Hula