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Vargur.

Author
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#21 - 2013-02-10 21:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
@ stoicfaux

in my first post i asked a question and linked pictures to show about what i talk about but thread instead turn in my vargur works as AC boat in missions..who the hell asked you does your vargur work or not?

It can,t fit both type of guns that's the point(feel free to point me in ship description where it say it is AC boat only) other marauders can,so far in game that i know about this is biggest fitting imbalance i found..and all i got in response is my vargur work with AC!?!! and that is answer to why..seriously?

Marauders are under performing in PVE(missions and everything else pve) and PVP to pirate counterparts and that is ok?,on top of that Vargur cant even use various weapon type it is lock in AC and machariel is king there PVE or PVP,

And answer to that is Vargur is fine.

Also ship having an extender instead of booster isn't PVP boat LOL.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#22 - 2013-02-10 22:41:41 UTC
What everyone is saying is you CAN fit artillery to the Vargur, you just need fitting mods. As to why, you'll have to ask CCP, not randoms on the internet, but I assume the answer will be the same you got here "You can, but why would you want to?"

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-02-10 22:46:39 UTC
The simple answer is No one knows what you are talking about.

I am here to help, I really am, but being rude and stupid on the forums is not the way to get anything useful.

What kind of fitting are you looking for? Something that can fit t2 1400 artillery cannons? or a non-aplha-able ship?
One can be achieved, with t2 mods, the other cannot.
We all know that the Vargur and several other ships cant the largest of their long range weapons.

We all know that Marauders simply arent as good at PVP as other ships.

We also all know that Pirate and Navy Variants of ships are very close to or better then Marauders.

However i havent seen evidence that the Vindicator is better then the Kronos or that the Rattlesnake is better then the Golem. Though i hear that the CNR is still very close to the Golem. The navy mega is nowhere near the Kronos.

The Macharial is a nice boat, but i havent, In my own experience, seen it to be better then the Vargur for solo mission work.
( if i wish to do any salvaging)

We all know that many ships need fitting mods and or implants to do the things that we want them to do.

Your other fitting examples are terrible.

Marauders are already geared more towards PVE as per CCP devs searchable responses about those ships. So claiming that a ship is bad for PVP is a fairly useless complaint. We already know this.

What exactly are you whining about?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#24 - 2013-02-10 22:47:51 UTC
Because pve evolved and ppl that have shiet ton of isk can use it in pvp as well(where arty's are viable in certan situations) but ship is t2 and it is gimped worse than t1 one

Machariel / Vindicatro / Nightmare shouldn't be top end ships or to put it from another angle,there should be more choices than 3 ships.

Also why would you is because it should..that simple..rest of it can,there is no ship in game that is locked like this i want to know why...

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-02-10 22:52:01 UTC
My freighter would love to disagree. Its an industrial type ship and it cant even fit cargo expanders or cargo rigs.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#26 - 2013-02-10 23:01:51 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
My freighter would love to disagree. Its an industrial type ship and it cant even fit cargo expanders or cargo rigs.


I didn't ask for your help just to make this clear.

I do apologies if i stated that your fit suck because it does i like to be direct and again i didn't ask you for fit.

You cant help(nor need to) you don't know what i am talking about nor u ever used Marauders in any situation that is not ship spinning,missions or mining.

This have nothing to do with pve against pvp pirate ships or pve ship and everything to FACT that one of 4 marauders CANT fit weapons that rest of em could and considering it is kinda of investment in time/skills it should.

And i would like to hear from CCP why is that because i cant make link more than everyone here say and that is meh it work ok with AC.

Again i apologies but i don't think we have anything more to say to each other on this subject.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#27 - 2013-02-10 23:29:11 UTC
Hey everyone,

It seems quite simple. The OP is just trying to show that of the 3 turret based Marauders, all can fit the largest, most power hungry guns except the Vargur.

A Kronos can fit 4 425MM railguns, which alone puts it at 55.44% PG
A Paladin can fit 4 Tach 2's, which alone puts it at 88% PG
The Vargur, with 4 1400 Howitzer 2's, hits 130.33% PG

That is just guns.

Yes the fit examples the OP chose are stupid IMO. But they are just showing that the paladin and kronos can be fully fit with the largest available guns, while the vargur goes way over PG with just the guns and nothing else.

Now I can't tell you what this means in terms of usefulness. In many circles I always hear how the vargur is one of the best of the marauders, despite the fact that it cant easily fit 1400mm arties.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#28 - 2013-02-10 23:35:21 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Hey everyone,

It seems quite simple. The OP is just trying to show that of the 3 turret based Marauders, all can fit the largest, most power hungry guns except the Vargur.

A Kronos can fit 4 425MM railguns, which alone puts it at 55.44% PG
A Paladin can fit 4 Tach 2's, which alone puts it at 88% PG
The Vargur, with 4 1400 Howitzer 2's, hits 130.33% PG

That is just guns.

Yes the fit examples the OP chose are stupid IMO. But they are just showing that the paladin and kronos can be fully fit with the largest available guns, while the vargur goes way over PG with just the guns and nothing else.

Now I can't tell you what this means in terms of usefulness. In many circles I always hear how the vargur is one of the best of the marauders, despite the fact that it cant easily fit 1400mm arties.


welcome and thanks for another angle look on this,i could easily left both kroni and pali with just guns and made same point and avoid all this discussion of why is pali fitted like this or that...my mistake i counted ppl will see it is not a point.

And to your last point i don't think vargur would become uber ship if it is able to fit t2 artys...it would just become able to fit them..and that is EvE you have options not prearranged limits,that is your part to choose will you use AC/ARTY/or neuts/bombs what ever..it is like most advanced battleship(:P) after all

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#29 - 2013-02-10 23:47:30 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Hey everyone,

It seems quite simple. The OP is just trying to show that of the 3 turret based Marauders, all can fit the largest, most power hungry guns except the Vargur.

A Kronos can fit 4 425MM railguns, which alone puts it at 55.44% PG
A Paladin can fit 4 Tach 2's, which alone puts it at 88% PG
The Vargur, with 4 1400 Howitzer 2's, hits 130.33% PG

That is just guns.

Yes the fit examples the OP chose are stupid IMO. But they are just showing that the paladin and kronos can be fully fit with the largest available guns, while the vargur goes way over PG with just the guns and nothing else.

Now I can't tell you what this means in terms of usefulness. In many circles I always hear how the vargur is one of the best of the marauders, despite the fact that it cant easily fit 1400mm arties.


The OPs example with Tachs could incite a thread similar to this one if one were wanting to be a giant douchebag troll (as the OP is in this thread). So I guess it's best to just say that the Kronos is the only one that can really fit the longest range turrets?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#30 - 2013-02-10 23:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

in my first post i asked a question and linked pictures to show about what i talk about but thread instead turn in my vargur works as AC boat in missions..who the hell asked you does your vargur work or not?

It can,t fit both type of guns that's the point(feel free to point me in ship description where it say it is AC boat only) other marauders can,so far in game that i know about this is biggest fitting imbalance i found..and all i got in response is my vargur work with AC!?!! and that is answer to why..seriously?


First, let us agree that it works fine as an AC boat in missions. More than fine, really - it's trivially better than a Rail Kronos (due to tracking, damage type, and range) and Tach Paladin (due to damage type). It's arguably better than the Golem (damage application to smaller targets, lack of painter fiddling, and better range). So, when AC fit it's better than all the other Marauders in their optimal configuration.

That means that you have another reason to want more grid on the Vargur - and that reason is either due to ammo consumption (maybe in WH space?) or due to you wanting to fit more things to an AC Vargur. The argument that you should be able to fit artillery just for the sake of fitting artillery is fallacious and total bunk as far as game balance goes.

You do briefly make the claim that Marauders are under performing in PVE, but don't really back that claim up. Do you think this because of the Mach? That seems pretty niche (and potentially wrong) to me.

-Liang

Ed: I'm not trying to be a **** here, but could you use proper sentences and paragraphs in your response? Coherency of thought would also be greatly appreciated because my trollese is getting fairly weak in my old age.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Techno General
Semper Iratus Omni Tempore
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2013-02-10 23:55:22 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Hey everyone,

It seems quite simple. The OP is just trying to show that of the 3 turret based Marauders, all can fit the largest, most power hungry guns except the Vargur.

A Kronos can fit 4 425MM railguns, which alone puts it at 55.44% PG
A Paladin can fit 4 Tach 2's, which alone puts it at 88% PG
The Vargur, with 4 1400 Howitzer 2's, hits 130.33% PG

That is just guns.

Yes the fit examples the OP chose are stupid IMO. But they are just showing that the paladin and kronos can be fully fit with the largest available guns, while the vargur goes way over PG with just the guns and nothing else.

Now I can't tell you what this means in terms of usefulness. In many circles I always hear how the vargur is one of the best of the marauders, despite the fact that it cant easily fit 1400mm arties.


Paladin generally requires a fitting mod to be able to fit a tank.

Cant comment on Kronos as I don't fly it.

Vargur doesn't need arties, with autos it absolutely eats missions.

If OP is suggesting to use a marauder in pvp, then troll successful.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#32 - 2013-02-11 00:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Techno General wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Hey everyone,

It seems quite simple. The OP is just trying to show that of the 3 turret based Marauders, all can fit the largest, most power hungry guns except the Vargur.

A Kronos can fit 4 425MM railguns, which alone puts it at 55.44% PG
A Paladin can fit 4 Tach 2's, which alone puts it at 88% PG
The Vargur, with 4 1400 Howitzer 2's, hits 130.33% PG

That is just guns.

Yes the fit examples the OP chose are stupid IMO. But they are just showing that the paladin and kronos can be fully fit with the largest available guns, while the vargur goes way over PG with just the guns and nothing else.

Now I can't tell you what this means in terms of usefulness. In many circles I always hear how the vargur is one of the best of the marauders, despite the fact that it cant easily fit 1400mm arties.


Paladin generally requires a fitting mod to be able to fit a tank.

Cant comment on Kronos as I don't fly it.

Vargur doesn't need arties, with autos it absolutely eats missions.

If OP is suggesting to use a marauder in pvp, then troll successful.


No it don't need pg mod i showed it to you missions are one thing wh and incursions are another and for two laters you don't need pg mod or "tank" as you put it.

Vargur need Artys if vargur is required to do Alpha strikes even snipes.who tell you that it don't need artys?... dont tell me you dont need em?

It can be used in PvP i don't say it is good idea but hey...

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#33 - 2013-02-11 00:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

in my first post i asked a question and linked pictures to show about what i talk about but thread instead turn in my vargur works as AC boat in missions..who the hell asked you does your vargur work or not?

It can,t fit both type of guns that's the point(feel free to point me in ship description where it say it is AC boat only) other marauders can,so far in game that i know about this is biggest fitting imbalance i found..and all i got in response is my vargur work with AC!?!! and that is answer to why..seriously?


First, let us agree that it works fine as an AC boat in missions. More than fine, really - it's trivially better than a Rail Kronos (due to tracking, damage type, and range) and Tach Paladin (due to damage type). It's arguably better than the Golem (damage application to smaller targets, lack of painter fiddling, and better range). So, when AC fit it's better than all the other Marauders in their optimal configuration.

That means that you have another reason to want more grid on the Vargur - and that reason is either due to ammo consumption (maybe in WH space?) or due to you wanting to fit more things to an AC Vargur. The argument that you should be able to fit artillery just for the sake of fitting artillery is fallacious and total bunk as far as game balance goes.

You do briefly make the claim that Marauders are under performing in PVE, but don't really back that claim up. Do you think this because of the Mach? That seems pretty niche (and potentially wrong) to me.

-Liang

Ed: I'm not trying to be a **** here, but could you use proper sentences and paragraphs in your response? Coherency of thought would also be greatly appreciated because my trollese is getting fairly weak in my old age.


Sadly for you there is thing called inc,s and wh rats where dmg type is irrelevant and tracking is used on proper targets and range so it is worked with and both of dose ships(kroni,pali) will outperform AC vargur in alpha and overall dmg.(and if you think that short range Vargur can outperform NM or god forbid Vindicator with uber webs you don't have clue about incursions even mach will outperform it like no one business).

this is my 5th language and i do play game atm so bare with me..will edit shortly for more points.

You assume much and assumption is mother of all frackups so they say i rly don't give a shiet about more pg for AC vargur..i want Artys on my vargur sry to disappoint there.

Pve is not missions anymore and marauders suffer even further because it and varg is locked in AC without Huge investment in PG that's not ok.

All of this just shunned Marauders down only making Pirate ships viable ONLY 3 of them that just suck i think if vargur can fit t2 1400mm it can be on par with Mach at least(due to it tracking/hit ratio) and expand top ships for one slot.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Techno General
Semper Iratus Omni Tempore
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2013-02-11 00:22:29 UTC
The Vargur does not need to fit arties in any way.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#35 - 2013-02-11 00:23:55 UTC
Techno General wrote:
The Vargur does not need to fit arties in any way.


post for posting sake..ok.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#36 - 2013-02-11 00:24:12 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

The OPs example with Tachs could incite a thread similar to this one if one were wanting to be a giant douchebag troll (as the OP is in this thread). So I guess it's best to just say that the Kronos is the only one that can really fit the longest range turrets?

-Liang


Which in a way I guess seems fair, considering the Kronos short range option is sooo short.

Vargur with 800mm AC and barrage is 6km+54km

Kronos with Neutron blasters and null is 12km +17km

(Just base guns on the hull, no TC TE etc)
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#37 - 2013-02-11 00:26:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Blaster Kroni problem is Vindicator it is just better pvp/pve doesnt matter.

And Vindicator will roflstomp varg ...NPC use traversal and mwd Vindi will end up applaying more dps due to webs that will stop target and then it is let me just apply this 1700 dps in you face against Vargur ~900?

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#38 - 2013-02-11 00:29:33 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Blaster Kroni problem is Vindicator it is just better pvp/pve doesnt matter.


No point muddying the waters. If you are trying to talk about the marauders let's talk about them. I was comparing the 2 short range weapons on their respective Marauder hulls.

Also, I think everyone can agree that the marauders as a class need to be looked at.

That being said I will leave this here
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#39 - 2013-02-11 00:35:35 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

Sadly for you there is thing called inc,s and wh rats where dmg type is irrelevant and tracking is used on proper targets and range so it is worked with and both of dose ships(kroni,pali) will outperform AC vargur in alpha and overall dmg.(and if you think that short range Vargur can outperform NM or god forbid Vindicator with uber webs you don't have clue about incursions even mach will outperform it like no one business).

this is my 5th language and i do play game atm so bare with me..will edit shortly for more points.

You assume much and assumption is mother of all frackups so they say i rly don't give a shiet about more pg for AC vargur..i want Artys on my vargur sry to disappoint there.


Ok, so we agree that the AC Vargur is the best L4 mission marauder. Honestly, it sounds to me like you're talking far more about Incursions than about Wormholes because you mention none of the features that make marauders so ******* great in wormhole content. For instance, a Vargur doesn't require an alt tagging along behind it in a Vargur which is actually quite a big deal. The Vargur is also not so static, which means it can quickly get into range and deliver great DPS, as well as scoop up the tasty tasty loot on the run.

You also go on to discuss comparisons of the Vargur to the Nightmare and Vindicator in Incursions, which means you don't properly conceptualize the role of a Marauder. And considering the underwhelming popularity of incursion content (even at its peak), it shouldn't really count as a knock against Marauders as a whole. However, it should not surprise you that pirate battleships are superior to marauders in Incursion content.

Quote:
Pve is not missions anymore and marauders suffer even further because it and varg is locked in AC without Huge investment in PG that's not ok.


Actually, it is ok.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#40 - 2013-02-11 00:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Blaster Kroni problem is Vindicator it is just better pvp/pve doesnt matter.

And Vindicator will roflstomp varg ...NPC use traversal and mwd Vindi will end up applaying more dps due to webs that will stop target and then it is let me just apply this 1700 dps in you face against Vargur ~900?


Using a blaster Vindicator in wormhole content (which you bring up) is absolutely ********. The AC Vargur is superior in every possible way.

-Liang

Ed: Actually, maybe a blaster Vindi does alright in high level C5/C6 wormholes with capital escalations. I'm sure all the rats spawn on top of you and you're not webbed to **** and never able to apply any DPS.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.