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Can Null not see the potential?
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Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#1 - 2013-01-20 04:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Every system controlled by an Alliance has X systems in them with X number of planets with X number of moons.

At each moon a POS.

At each POS X amount of structures.

Each structures have how many slots means potentially hundreds of slots in one system alone.

In every region potential for thousands of slots running.

If CEO's can't get each corp member to anchor a POS and get them to produce, at the same time have a corp fund for buying fuel and logistical support for fuel or alliances not supporting logistical lines for this then why blame a broken null?
Seems more like inept leadership to me.

Now this; instead of spamming CCP for hi sec nerf why not ask for a new feature like NPC mercs to help guard their POS'es and assets.
this will help for players in Null not having to be on guard protecting moons all the time giving them more freedom to roam.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-01-20 04:46:10 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Every system controlled by an Alliance has X systems in them with X number of planets with X number of moons.

At each moon a POS.

At each POS X amount of structures.

Each structures have how many slots means potentially hundreds of slots in one system alone.

In every region potential for thousands of slots running.

If CEO's can't get each corp member to anchor a POS and get them to produce, at the same time have a corp fund for buying fuel and logistical support for fuel or alliances not supporting logical lines for this then why blame a broken null?
Seems more like inept leadership to me.

Now this; instead of spamming CCP for hi sec nerf why not ask for a new feature like NPC mercs to help guard their POS'es and assets.
this will help for players in Null not having to be on guard protecting moons all the time giving them more freedom to roam.


Spending trillions of ISK to have a destructible industrial base that you need to defend to manufacture stuff VS spending 3 peanuts to use a indestructible one.

I wonder which one is easyer to work with.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#3 - 2013-01-20 04:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Right, but that is part of the price for having access to the best stuff in game.

If it's too expensive then why do corps stay?

And trillions don't even comes close, even a small POS will go into an industructable mode giving an Alliance time to repell any attack. A small POS cost what??? 70 mil, structures how much...any corporation worth it's salt will already have a supply of standby stuff on hand.

100 mil is nothing to a Null corp.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#4 - 2013-01-20 04:55:03 UTC
Have you every run a POS before? Have you every gone through the mind-numbingly boring process of setting one up, managing it, fueling it, and logging in during the middle of the night to stront-time it because some jerk decided to come in and violence your spacestation?

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Frying Doom
#5 - 2013-01-20 04:56:22 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Every system controlled by an Alliance has X systems in them with X number of planets with X number of moons.

At each moon a POS.

At each POS X amount of structures.

Each structures have how many slots means potentially hundreds of slots in one system alone.

In every region potential for thousands of slots running.

If CEO's can't get each corp member to anchor a POS and get them to produce, at the same time have a corp fund for buying fuel and logistical support for fuel or alliances not supporting logical lines for this then why blame a broken null?
Seems more like inept leadership to me.

Now this; instead of spamming CCP for hi sec nerf why not ask for a new feature like NPC mercs to help guard their POS'es and assets.
this will help for players in Null not having to be on guard protecting moons all the time giving them more freedom to roam.


Spending trillions of ISK to have a destructible industrial base that you need to defend to manufacture stuff VS spending 3 peanuts to use a indestructible one.

I wonder which one is easyer to work with.

You missed the fact that running so many POS would require large alliances to have a suicide hotline for the POS managers and ontop of all of that you still need stations to allow you to refine or you lose 25% of what you mine as well as the fact you would need to import a huge amount of hi-sec minerals to build what you wanted.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#6 - 2013-01-20 04:58:41 UTC
Yes, I've had a pos, but any Alliance that cannot defend their assets you have to ask WHY are they living there then?
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#7 - 2013-01-20 04:58:41 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Right, but that is part of the price for having access to the best stuff in game.

If it's too expensive then why do corps stay?


Because of hisec and the sheer ease of logistics/alts. Noticed this once i figured out how easily JFs can move anything you need for 500k-1mil a jump.

That and the null indie isn't really viable compared to just moving/selling hi ends in hisec and buying everything you need from jita en masse.


By the way if CCP added NPC mercs to defend player assets wouldn't that take away from the... player aspect of the game?

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-01-20 04:59:44 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Right, but that is part of the price for having access to the best stuff in game.

If it's too expensive then why do corps stay?


You don't understand. They don't stay there for the industry. Most stuff are produced in high sec in the welfare industrial base because it is more efficient to do so and haul it back to null. Your proposition would need quite a major editing for it to be worthwhile. You need to remember that as long as it is more efficient to build stuff in high even accounting for transportation, stuff will be built there.

For a buildup of industry to happen in null, the buildup + security to keep it standing + hassle of much less seeded amrket to buy mats from need to be smaller than it is in high sec. Setuping hundred of POS and fueling them + keeping them up + getting the mats to these lines is heaps and bound more trouble and cost than amking everything in high and hauling it to null.
Sala Kyss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-01-20 05:01:01 UTC
The best stuff in the game? Are you kidding?

Noxcium is constantly rising above zydrine in price, Megacyte is low as hell, and nearly all of the "high ends" of minerals are at an all-time low.

You make more if not just BARELY under mining veldspar constantly in hi-sec versus mining arkonor in nullsec. You're thought process is flawed because of the whole hi-sec vs nullsec. It needs a nerf, it demands a nerf. Nowhere have high-ends ever been this low before, not to mention that hi-sec has no isk sinks other than suicide gankers. We have sov bills, etc which is mildly alleviated with taxes and moon goo.

Seriously go back to your missions and don't whine if/when they become nerfed
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#10 - 2013-01-20 05:03:56 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Every system controlled by an Alliance has X systems in them with X number of planets with X number of moons.

At each moon a POS.

At each POS X amount of structures.

Each structures have how many slots means potentially hundreds of slots in one system alone.

In every region potential for thousands of slots running.

If CEO's can't get each corp member to anchor a POS and get them to produce, at the same time have a corp fund for buying fuel and logistical support for fuel or alliances not supporting logical lines for this then why blame a broken null?
Seems more like inept leadership to me.

Now this; instead of spamming CCP for hi sec nerf why not ask for a new feature like NPC mercs to help guard their POS'es and assets.
this will help for players in Null not having to be on guard protecting moons all the time giving them more freedom to roam.


Spending trillions of ISK to have a destructible industrial base that you need to defend to manufacture stuff VS spending 3 peanuts to use a indestructible one.

I wonder which one is easyer to work with.

You missed the fact that running so many POS would require large alliances to have a suicide hotline for the POS managers and ontop of all of that you still need stations to allow you to refine or you lose 25% of what you mine as well as the fact you would need to import a huge amount of hi-sec minerals to build what you wanted.


I understand, yes null should get 100% refine absolutely.
hi sec minerals? Why, they have everything hi sec has even more.

This is why any Alliance or corporation should have BPO's to build POS'es in case of a loss, I understand there is risk, but that is why it's 0.0 last time I checked.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#11 - 2013-01-20 05:15:30 UTC
Sala Kyss wrote:
The best stuff in the game? Are you kidding?

Noxcium is constantly rising above zydrine in price, Megacyte is low as hell, and nearly all of the "high ends" of minerals are at an all-time low.

You make more if not just BARELY under mining veldspar constantly in hi-sec versus mining arkonor in nullsec. You're thought process is flawed because of the whole hi-sec vs nullsec. It needs a nerf, it demands a nerf. Nowhere have high-ends ever been this low before, not to mention that hi-sec has no isk sinks other than suicide gankers. We have sov bills, etc which is mildly alleviated with taxes and moon goo.

Seriously go back to your missions and don't whine if/when they become nerfed


And how is hi responsible for the drop in hi ends?

It's at an all time low because of Null not hi your statement that my thinking is flawed is looking kinda like swiss cheese.

If hi sec had lots of sinks everywhere then people would hoard more isk and stuff further depressing hi end minerals cause guess what, people don't buy when they're broke.

If taxes are high in null it's not hi sec either.

Moon goo, great point, hi doesn't have it.

I'm not whining I'm responding to post regarding hi.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#12 - 2013-01-20 05:33:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Right, but that is part of the price for having access to the best stuff in game.

If it's too expensive then why do corps stay?


You don't understand. They don't stay there for the industry. Most stuff are produced in high sec in the welfare industrial base because it is more efficient to do so and haul it back to null. Your proposition would need quite a major editing for it to be worthwhile. You need to remember that as long as it is more efficient to build stuff in high even accounting for transportation, stuff will be built there.

For a buildup of industry to happen in null, the buildup + security to keep it standing + hassle of much less seeded amrket to buy mats from need to be smaller than it is in high sec. Setuping hundred of POS and fueling them + keeping them up + getting the mats to these lines is heaps and bound more trouble and cost than amking everything in high and hauling it to null.


That's a point to remember, most of the folks in Null are alts or have alts living in hi.

If a build up needs to happen + security ect ect then having hi sec as it is is a + not a negative cause even if there is a buff to null industry you still have to protect it, if nobody want to protect their assets then what's the point of having the prestige of being a null corp with all the goodies and no work.
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
#13 - 2013-01-20 05:37:24 UTC
The argument isn't that the POSs are expensive or a pain in the ass to run or anything (although they are).

The argument is that POSs are more expensive to run than building your **** in highsec, even if you count the JF fuel to get your finished product out to nullsec.

They are complaining that doing all that work and sinking all that money still puts them in a situation that's worse than those doing no work and sinking no money into their infrastructure.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#14 - 2013-01-20 05:42:17 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
If CEO's can't get each corp member to anchor a POS and get them to produce


You really gonna give roles to every Tom, **** and Harry? This is why highsec dudes should not opine about 0.0

.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-01-20 05:47:17 UTC
'give everyone in your alliance pos roles' - some highsec idiot
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-01-20 05:58:36 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
If CEO's can't get each corp member to anchor a POS and get them to produce


Not everyone is or wants to be an industry oriented player.

There are also security concerns, as Nicolo so colorfully mentioned above me.

POS are godawful for production.

You're spreading out one of the problems with production in nullsec - the fact that it requires you to move, via freighter, a crapton of minerals, which is decidedly harder and less safe in nullsec - out over multiple, possibly dozens, of discrete points.



Do we need to illustrate further why this is a horrible idea?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#17 - 2013-01-20 05:59:44 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Now this; instead of spamming CCP for hi sec nerf why not ask for a new feature like NPC mercs to help guard their POS'es and assets.
this will help for players in Null not having to be on guard protecting moons all the time giving them more freedom to roam.


So you're telling us that, instead of asking CCP to fix the problem where Null has no viable way to increase its manufacturing capacity (Spendig ~100k ISK/hr (entirely ignoring the capital investment and risk of loss) to fuel a manufacturing line that costs 600ISK/hr in HS is not a viable option), you're suggesting that we ask CCP to Make Nullsec into High Sec?

How about no.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#18 - 2013-01-20 06:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Psychotic Monk wrote:
The argument isn't that the POSs are expensive or a pain in the ass to run or anything (although they are).

The argument is that POSs are more expensive to run than building your **** in highsec, even if you count the JF fuel to get your finished product out to nullsec.

They are complaining that doing all that work and sinking all that money still puts them in a situation that's worse than those doing no work and sinking no money into their infrastructure.


Exactly they are stating that it's a hassle and want to nerf hi making things worse for themselves.

Believe me I understand that POS'es are cht with cost of running them but when I ran mine I budgeted my income around the costs.

Nobody doesn't want the hassles but all the benefits.

Lets play a free POS run in null scenario.
Nerf hi industry with less slots more cost.

Null sets prices for stuff...but think who always really controls prices? Traders? They will be the true winners in this.

Null controlling is being done now with high end minerals you see where that goes.

Now cost go up with builds of everything cause of increased cost, 75 million Drake?
How is a noob gonna see this when they come to eve in a hi cost broke paying hi?

They want to have 7-11's everywhere in null but it's not hi's fault ask CCP to put them there.
Besides we see how this works too, the only way to buy stuff in 0.0 is to 1. NPC station however see station campers making this a suicide proposition or 2. Outpost open to everybody, I can tell you how this goes over to corporations or alliance holding SOV.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-01-20 06:06:13 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:


They want to have 7-11's everywhere in null but it's not hi's fault ask CCP to put them there.
Besides we see how this works too, the only way to buy stuff in 0.0 is to 1. NPC station however see station campers making this a suicide proposition or 2. Outpost open to everybody, I can tell you how this goes over to corporations or alliance holding SOV.


I'm not sure why you think either of these is necessary to buy and sell stuff in 0.0. Is there some reason I would want to sell stuff to people who can't dock in my stations already? I mean, they tend to be the ones who also want to shoot me...

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#20 - 2013-01-20 06:10:14 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
'give everyone in your alliance pos roles' - some highsec idiot


Well then this is why null cant get their cht together cause nobody wants to make it work but want all the benefits.

Nobody can help null till null helps itself but it seems that instead of trying you want to resort to name calling when the light is turned on null to show that many of the vocal folks posting to nerf hi are full of it.
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