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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Author
Torri Bernard
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2013-01-08 22:38:02 UTC
John Valentine wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
4LeafClover wrote:
Have you ever flown a typhoon? Don't worry if you haven't, nobody else does either...the reason is a split weapon system...you only get a bonus to 4 turret slots? And just try to fit 3 gyros, and 3 ballistic controls in the lows.....useless.


Wouldn't be awesome if the devs were going to revamp battleships too? I think it would. Cool


For the love of God dont let them touch the Battleships..you know the gonna nerf the **** out of the maelstrom and probally make the Tempest a missile boat.



Get ready for your drone boat geddon.
TijsseN
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2013-01-08 22:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: TijsseN
It seems to me that the proposed new split weapons systems for BC's make it even longer to fly a ship effectively (T2 weapon grind for both different weapons systems) adding on top of that the split of destroyer and battlecruiser skills into racial versions making it even harder to maximize your skills on a wide set of ships.

The current slot layout of every ship means that you can only effectively boost 1 weapon system and the second one becomes very ineffective. With a split weapon system you can only do less damage than with a hull with only one weapon system.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#123 - 2013-01-08 22:39:12 UTC
4LeafClover wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Right now Gallente is the ONLY race that has mulutple ships with split weapon systems.



You're kidding right?

Well after the rebalance, they will be the only one left

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Mund Richard
#124 - 2013-01-08 22:39:53 UTC
John Valentine wrote:
For the love of God dont let them touch the Battleships..you know the gonna nerf the **** out of the maelstrom and probally make the Tempest a missile boat.

Good news!

The plan was to have the Phoon a missile boat instead!

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#125 - 2013-01-08 22:42:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Harbinger:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
10% (+5%) bonus to Medium Energy Turret Damage
10% bonus Medium Energy Turret capacitor use

Fixed Bonus:
99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H (-1), 4 M, 6 L, 6 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 1325 PWG (-175), 350 CPU (-25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3000(-516) / 5000(-469) / 4500(-188)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 3125 / 822s(+72s) / 3.8 (-0.366)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 150 / 0.704 / 13800000 (+300,000) / 9.1s (+0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75 (+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km (+5) / 210 / 6
Sensor strength: 17 Radar (+1)
Signature radius: 270 (+5)
Cargo capacity: 375 (+25)


Ok, a few comments:
- I approve of dropping a turret for a bigger bonus.
- I disapprove of dropping fittings. It's already the hardest BC to fit by a lot.
- You're hitting those defenses kinda hard. I can see swatting the shield HP, but armor too? I never really considered the Harbinger a particularly tanky ship.
- You're smacking the **** out of it's mobility and it was already a giant fat ass. Combining armor tanking with a giant fat ass even before you fit plates is... dubious.

Honestly I'd trade the extra drone space for better mobility.


PS: Cyclone. Guns. Keep them. You know you want to. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Torri Bernard
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2013-01-08 22:45:51 UTC
Jerrek Peacelord wrote:
...
Harbs: less of everything except the damage bonus. Well that's just brilliant. Cant WAIT to fly that in our nex....NOT!
Prophecy: is anyone REALLY looking forward to flying a drone boat of this size with 75m3 for drones? ...


My point exactly. Armor based drone boats dont work.
4LeafClover
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2013-01-08 22:48:56 UTC
Torri Bernard wrote:
Jerrek Peacelord wrote:
...
Harbs: less of everything except the damage bonus. Well that's just brilliant. Cant WAIT to fly that in our nex....NOT!
Prophecy: is anyone REALLY looking forward to flying a drone boat of this size with 75m3 for drones? ...


My point exactly. Armor based drone boats dont work.



Don't you know Torri....EVE players are supposed to adapt to the ships they fly.........only to have the ships get screwed and then have to try and adapt again......and again....

CCP, for the love of all that's holy, please leave the hurricane alone, unless you want to return it to it's pre-neutered state? That would be a great change. Thanks.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#128 - 2013-01-08 22:48:59 UTC
Wasn't the Harby already tight on CPU? I don't get making the lowest CPU BC even lower (and yes, I see you dropped a turret, but the CPU drop > 1 medium turret.) You shouldn't be nerfing Harby CPU more than 15.

(And iirc I've never flown a Harby fwiw.)

I liked EVE better when it had iconic ships like the rifter, the hurricane and the drake. As long as best in class ships were spread amongst all races (and not I-win buttons, just not insignificantly better than their peers,) it's not necessarily a bad thing (I'd argue it's a good thing that encouraged players to stick around and cross-train.) Ship balancing should have focused on making all ships useful, not equal, and certainly shouldn't have been used as an excuse to make previously best-in-class ships like the dramiel pretty terrible.
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#129 - 2013-01-08 22:50:25 UTC
TijsseN wrote:
It seems to me that the proposed new split weapons systems for BC's make it even longer to fly a ship effectively (T2 weapon grind for both different weapons systems) adding on top of that the split of destroyer and battlecruiser skills into racial versions making it even harder to maximize your skills on a wide set of ships.

The current slot layout of every ship means that you can only effectively boost 1 weapon system and the second one becomes very ineffective. With a split weapon system you can only do less damage than with a hull with only one weapon system.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dear Capsuleers.
Two utility highslots is not the same as split weapons.
All the best.
-Love Fozzie

:Writing up a reply to more questions now:


He already answered this question, they are utility highs, it could be a turret, it could be a nos/neut, it could be a smartbomb, it could be a gang link, it could be a drone range extender, it could be a salvager, it could be a remote repper.

Can we move past this non-issue now?
Mund Richard
#130 - 2013-01-08 22:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Torri Bernard wrote:
My point exactly. Armor based drone boats dont work.
Before the Drone Damage Amplifier, they weren't too bad.
Now you want both DDAs and heatsinks/magstabs/BCU(Shocked) even on the base versions.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#131 - 2013-01-08 22:52:36 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
TijsseN wrote:
It seems to me that the proposed new split weapons systems for BC's make it even longer to fly a ship effectively (T2 weapon grind for both different weapons systems) adding on top of that the split of destroyer and battlecruiser skills into racial versions making it even harder to maximize your skills on a wide set of ships.

The current slot layout of every ship means that you can only effectively boost 1 weapon system and the second one becomes very ineffective. With a split weapon system you can only do less damage than with a hull with only one weapon system.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dear Capsuleers.
Two utility highslots is not the same as split weapons.
All the best.
-Love Fozzie

:Writing up a reply to more questions now:


He already answered this question, they are utility highs, it could be a turret, it could be a nos/neut, it could be a smartbomb, it could be a gang link, it could be a drone range extender, it could be a salvager, it could be a remote repper.

Can we move past this non-issue now?

maybe they should just remove the turret hard pointsTwisted

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Sarmatiko
#132 - 2013-01-08 22:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
John Valentine wrote:

Belicose = Missile boat, Talwar = Missile Boat, Breacher = Missile Boat, and now the cyclone as well?
WTF?

You forgot one thing. Just before rebalance it was just like this:
Belicose = useless, Talwar = non existant, Breacher = useless. Cyclone = overshadowed by Hurricane.
Sorry to mention this, but even your character flew only Hurricane, Rifter/Wolf, Thrasher (according to KB losses). So why you complaining about ships totally unrelated to your playstyle?


Returning back on topic, I would love to see +1 launcher on Cyclone.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-01-08 22:59:16 UTC
They all look fine to me. Great balancing. Cyclone looks interesting, prophecy looks less useless.

(Ferox is mehhhhh still, but its a step in the right direction.)

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Kogh Ayon
Know-Nothings
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#134 - 2013-01-08 22:59:44 UTC
Brutix

The boost on brutix may not enough to make it a good solo ship, the problems :
1, odd damage type
2, damage type problem can be solved by drones, but there's dilemma at choosing ecm drones or Infiltrators/Valkyries
(implies more drone bay)
3, No utility high to fit neut to kill mission ships, nor being able to fit cloak to travel into hostile space.
(implies an utility high)

So the usage of armor brutix will still be restrict to ~5 man small gang, can't solo, can't join bigger fights.


Harbinger

Don't get the logic to nerf this ship, isn't it **** enough already that people even use omen rather than harbinger?
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2013-01-08 23:00:18 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Torri Bernard wrote:
My point exactly. Armor based drone boats dont work.
Before the Drone Damage Amplifier, they weren't too bad.
Now you want both DDAs and heatsinks/magstabs/BCU(Shocked) even on the base versions.


Or you could do like all other Amarr drone boats are doing and fit some nos/neut.

The prophecy looks like it could do well with 4 HM/HAM and a medium neut. The 75 bandwidth is exactly what the Myrmidon has now but with an extra low and a better tank bonus.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-01-08 23:01:26 UTC
Is it intentional that the damage bonuses on the cyclone and drake don't affect rapid light missile launchers despite them nominally being cruiser-sized weapons?
blackpatch
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#137 - 2013-01-08 23:01:31 UTC
These changes are really underwhelming in comparison to the excellent T1 frigate/cruiser changes. The T1/T2 battlecruiser hulls are still far inferior to the T3 hulls for most practical applications.

The frigate/cruiser changes changed the game in a very good direction. They placed more power in the hands of newbees and opened up some of the exciting new T1 cruiser compositions we've been seeing recently. These proposed changes aren't going to do much of anything. T1/T2 battlecruisers will continue their slow slide into obsolescence.

In my opinion you need to go back to the drawing board, and use the T3 battlecruisers as a standard of comparison.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#138 - 2013-01-08 23:02:11 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
John Valentine wrote:

Belicose = Missile boat, Talwar = Missile Boat, Breacher = Missile Boat, and now the cyclone as well?
WTF?

You forgot one thing. Just before rebalance it was just like this:
Belicose = useless, Talwar = non existant, Breacher = useless. Cyclone = overshadowed by Hurricane.
Sorry to mantion this, but even your character flew only Hurricane, Rifter/Wolf, Thrasher (according to KB losses). So why you complaining about ships totally unrelated to your playstyle?


Returning back on topic, I would love yo see +1 launcher on Cyclone. Split system is bad.


The Cyclone was not overshadowed by the Hurricane. I'd have taken a Cyclone against a Hurricane any day, and that Cane was gonna die.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#139 - 2013-01-08 23:04:31 UTC
4LeafClover wrote:
How many missile snipe ships do you see out there......? "crickets"


How many cyclones do you see sniping out there.......? "crickets"

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

FistyMcBumBasher
Goryn Clade
#140 - 2013-01-08 23:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: FistyMcBumBardier
After having reviewed these changes a little bit more.

The prophecy is going to be a much better drone boat than the myrm because of resist bonus and wonderfully massive drone bay. The prophecy is how I have always envisioned a drone boat. My experience with drone boats is that anyone would easily trade that extra 25 bandwidth for more variation in drones.

The drake is relatively unchanged from it's current version, as it rarely utilized the utility high.

Why the extra CPU on the Ferox? It has more than enough in it's current form.

Brutix and myrm having the same bonus is a bit silly because only one of them will be used for the active tanking ship. Give one of them another offensive bonus in my opinion, as two of the same niche bonus is a little uninspiring.

Let the haters hate, I look forward to flying the Cyclone especially since the cyclone is getting a buff to CPU and a new low (probably going to be filled with a co-pro). The damage projection will be larger and it will deal more consistent dps to larger targets when using HAMS. Is it possible to get the bonus to also apply to Rapid Light Assault Missile's? The two utility highs (or split weapon system as some people are saying) should give it some defense against lighter ships. I can see this ship replacing the Hurricane of old.

Hurricane is still the hurricane but without the possibility of two neuts.

Edit: Forgot that wormhole drakes use the high. But now they have the cyclone I guess.