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Talos needs to be nerfed. Long live the Vagabond!

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2012-12-13 06:26:37 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

My experience with the vagabond far outweighs my talos experience . If you watch Kil2's stuff you can see what i mean about loading void. He demonstrates it perfectly against a drake. That's something you just cant do in a vaga, take out reasonably tanked missile ships. The vaga relies on out-ranging most of the incoming damage and but doesnt have the straight up killing power of other HAC's/BC's in terms of in-your-face damage.

For projection and tracking, yes the vagabond is superior. For tank, DPS and cost the talos is superior. Tracking enhancers buffed the vaga, but they also increased that danger 'kill-zone' of other ships - for example the hurricane can do more damage than a vagabond but was always limited by it's falloff. With the TE changes is can easily keep up with the vagabond inside point range... unless you for out 70% of the vagabonds hull price on a 30km point and sit further out.

I don't think either ship should be nerfed - i feel the vagabond is a little out of date though, which is maybe the point this thread should have made instead of straight out saying the talos replaces the vagabond...


The problem is that you're thinking Kil2 and I fly the same kind of Talos fits. We don't - at all. We both contend each other's fit is complete garbage and he seems pretty content to think I'm a terrible PVPer. Since you seem to be fond of watching Kil2's PVP, look at how many times he's been rendered completely vulnerable by a frigate in that Talos. You're looking at my video and looking at his video and thinking you can get the same performance out of both fits - and that's just incredibly wrong.

You point out that the Vagabond is feeling a little out of date, but it isn't the Talos (or Tier 3s) that are doing that to it. Hell, for the situations that everyone keeps bringing up, the Talos isn't even the best of the Tier 3s.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#62 - 2012-12-13 06:34:20 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Its true that a solo talos has a harder time killing friagtes than the vaga (but the tracking formula helps, 0 transversal = full damage), this stilld oesnt cahnge the fact that against pretty much everything else the talos is much better, it has sufficient speed (especially if snakes/linked vs unspported stuff), it has more dps, more range, simlar tank!

Also the big going point for the vaga the anti frig capabilitys becomes void if you start to think in gang terms, 5 talos and a rapier are simply better than 5 vagas and a rapier, because then you end up beeing able to kill every frig almost instantly!


And the main going point of the vaga vs the talos (and pretty much any other ship) is its speed, but above a certain point more speed doesnt really help you, and that point can be pretty much reached in a talos with snakes/links!

And i also think that tier3s arent very helpfull atm, they kind of killed the kiting cruisers off !


What are you talking about man? A few comments:
- The Vagabond has dramatically superior mobility.
- The Vagabond has a dramatically superior tank.
- The Vagabond has a smaller sig radius.
- The Vagabond has better range.
- The Vagabond tracks almost 6.5x better than the Talos (even with dual LSE and shield rigs!)
- The Vagabond has similar kiting DPS.
- Once you start talking about putting snakes+links on a Talos, you might as well talk about what putting snakes+links does to everything else. The Talos, again, falls short.

I mean don't get me wrong - I like the Talos just fine. But you guys are making it out to be some big bad monster that it isn't. And some of you make all the Tier 3s out to be this monster, and they aren't either.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#63 - 2012-12-13 15:07:21 UTC
I deleted some trolling from this thread.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-12-13 15:48:12 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


What are you talking about man? A few comments:
- The Vagabond has dramatically superior mobility.

Yes.

- The Vagabond has a dramatically superior tank.

Dramatically, maybe not, but significantly, ok.

- The Vagabond has a smaller sig radius.

Yes.

- The Vagabond has better range.

Not really.

- The Vagabond tracks almost 6.5x better than the Talos (even with dual LSE and shield rigs!)

Okay, I suppose, I didn't check the tracking stats all that much.

- The Vagabond has similar kiting DPS.

No.


I usually agree with you Liang, but some things in this are just plainly wrong.

What's range ? What does "The Vagabond has better range" means ? To me, it should mean "It can deal a better DPS than the Talos at a range of 30/40kms.

That's just wrong. If I recall correctly, a Talos with Null loaded has an optimal of 16km and a falloff of 29km.

A Vagabond with Barrage loaded has an optimal of 3.5km and a falloff of 41km

Talos = 16 + 29 = 45

Vagabond = 3.5 + 41 = 44.5

Considering the Talos has 891 DPS and the Vagabond has 347 DPS in their classic respective fits (2xTEs, 2xDamagemods), a Talos has more DPS and/or range than a Vagabond.

Again, I'm talking about shooting a stationary target here. Sure, maybe a Vagabond will perform better against a small, very mobile target (And again, depends if the small and very mobile target is MWDing towards the Talos, in which case the Talos will just instapop it). But you can't say a Vagabond has a similar kiting DPS.

Either add "Against a frigate that isn't hitting Approach with its MWD on", or just admit that a 891 DPS Talos will deal significantly more DPS than a Vagabond at equal ranges.

Oh and I just checked tracking stats. 220mm Vagabonds have a tracking of 0.1349. Neutron Taloses with Null have a tracking of 0.0794. I'm not a math specialist, but that's not really 6.5 times better, is it ?
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#65 - 2012-12-13 16:15:14 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Oh and I just checked tracking stats. 220mm Vagabonds have a tracking of 0.1349. Neutron Taloses with Null have a tracking of 0.0794. I'm not a math specialist, but that's not really 6.5 times better, is it ?


You should not forget signature radius of guns. Large guns have 400 m while medium ones have 125 m signature radius resolution. This means that medium guns track around 3 times better than large guns even if their raw tracking numbers are equal.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#66 - 2012-12-13 18:29:12 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


What are you talking about man? A few comments:
- The Vagabond has dramatically superior mobility.

Yes.

- The Vagabond has a dramatically superior tank.

Dramatically, maybe not, but significantly, ok.

- The Vagabond has a smaller sig radius.

Yes.

- The Vagabond has better range.

Not really.

- The Vagabond tracks almost 6.5x better than the Talos (even with dual LSE and shield rigs!)

Okay, I suppose, I didn't check the tracking stats all that much.

- The Vagabond has similar kiting DPS.

No.


I usually agree with you Liang, but some things in this are just plainly wrong.

What's range ? What does "The Vagabond has better range" means ? To me, it should mean "It can deal a better DPS than the Talos at a range of 30/40kms.

That's just wrong. If I recall correctly, a Talos with Null loaded has an optimal of 16km and a falloff of 29km.

A Vagabond with Barrage loaded has an optimal of 3.5km and a falloff of 41km

Talos = 16 + 29 = 45

Vagabond = 3.5 + 41 = 44.5

Considering the Talos has 891 DPS and the Vagabond has 347 DPS in their classic respective fits (2xTEs, 2xDamagemods), a Talos has more DPS and/or range than a Vagabond.

Again, I'm talking about shooting a stationary target here. Sure, maybe a Vagabond will perform better against a small, very mobile target (And again, depends if the small and very mobile target is MWDing towards the Talos, in which case the Talos will just instapop it). But you can't say a Vagabond has a similar kiting DPS.

Either add "Against a frigate that isn't hitting Approach with its MWD on", or just admit that a 891 DPS Talos will deal significantly more DPS than a Vagabond at equal ranges.

Oh and I just checked tracking stats. 220mm Vagabonds have a tracking of 0.1349. Neutron Taloses with Null have a tracking of 0.0794. I'm not a math specialist, but that's not really 6.5 times better, is it ?


I think that this is a case of you not being familiar with what's going on. For instance, a standard Vagabond fit has 3x-4x the tank of a standard kiting Talos - even before we factor in resists that help with RR. I'd call that "dramatically superior", personally. Additionally, the Vagabond really does have similar kiting DPS. You cited a 900 DPS Talos with 16+29, but the truth is that you won't be applying even a fraction of that. Between tracking and the range falloff after your 15km optimal you're going to be dealing about the same damage at the edge of point range.

A kiting fight is never going to be against a stationary target - both you and the target will be moving. It doesn't take much before you're seeing noticeable damage reduction against even battlecruisers. This is a blatant appeal to authority, but go watch my videos - I've done quite a bit of this kitey Talos thing.

And as I've stated so many times: you guys are complaining about the wrong ship. The Talos is actually surprisingly weak at this role.

-Liang

Addendum: Yes, it's really 6.5x better. You forgot to factor in sig resolution.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#67 - 2012-12-14 00:13:37 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Liang Nuren wrote:
SMT008 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


What are you talking about man? A few comments:
- The Vagabond has dramatically superior mobility.

Yes.

- The Vagabond has a dramatically superior tank.

Dramatically, maybe not, but significantly, ok.

- The Vagabond has a smaller sig radius.

Yes.

- The Vagabond has better range.

Not really.

- The Vagabond tracks almost 6.5x better than the Talos (even with dual LSE and shield rigs!)

Okay, I suppose, I didn't check the tracking stats all that much.

- The Vagabond has similar kiting DPS.

No.


I usually agree with you Liang, but some things in this are just plainly wrong.

What's range ? What does "The Vagabond has better range" means ? To me, it should mean "It can deal a better DPS than the Talos at a range of 30/40kms.

That's just wrong. If I recall correctly, a Talos with Null loaded has an optimal of 16km and a falloff of 29km.

A Vagabond with Barrage loaded has an optimal of 3.5km and a falloff of 41km

Talos = 16 + 29 = 45

Vagabond = 3.5 + 41 = 44.5

Considering the Talos has 891 DPS and the Vagabond has 347 DPS in their classic respective fits (2xTEs, 2xDamagemods), a Talos has more DPS and/or range than a Vagabond.

Again, I'm talking about shooting a stationary target here. Sure, maybe a Vagabond will perform better against a small, very mobile target (And again, depends if the small and very mobile target is MWDing towards the Talos, in which case the Talos will just instapop it). But you can't say a Vagabond has a similar kiting DPS.

Either add "Against a frigate that isn't hitting Approach with its MWD on", or just admit that a 891 DPS Talos will deal significantly more DPS than a Vagabond at equal ranges.

Oh and I just checked tracking stats. 220mm Vagabonds have a tracking of 0.1349. Neutron Taloses with Null have a tracking of 0.0794. I'm not a math specialist, but that's not really 6.5 times better, is it ?


I think that this is a case of you not being familiar with what's going on. For instance, a standard Vagabond fit has 3x-4x the tank of a standard kiting Talos - even before we factor in resists that help with RR. I'd call that "dramatically superior", personally. Additionally, the Vagabond really does have similar kiting DPS. You cited a 900 DPS Talos with 16+29, but the truth is that you won't be applying even a fraction of that. Between tracking and the range falloff after your 15km optimal you're going to be dealing about the same damage at the edge of point range.

A kiting fight is never going to be against a stationary target - both you and the target will be moving. It doesn't take much before you're seeing noticeable damage reduction against even battlecruisers. This is a blatant appeal to authority, but go watch my videos - I've done quite a bit of this kitey Talos thing.

And as I've stated so many times: you guys are complaining about the wrong ship. The Talos is actually surprisingly weak at this role.

-Liang

Addendum: Yes, it's really 6.5x better. You forgot to factor in sig resolution.


Talos has 26k ehp (which is more than most vagas), show me a kiting vaga that has 3-4 times the tank. And vs pretty much everything but frigates/dessies tracking does not matter, a vagabond moving with full speed at a 90% angle (so basically one of the smallest and fastest cruisers moving at the highest possible transversal) still takes over 600 damage from the talos at 20km. The talos has better range as it does more dps at longer ranges.

The only thing the vaga has going for it is pure speed which is pretty useless!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#68 - 2012-12-14 00:52:19 UTC
Please post your 26k EHP kiting Talos fit that's worth a ****.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#69 - 2012-12-14 03:34:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Please post your 26k EHP kiting Talos fit that's worth a ****.

-Liang


[Talos, SHield Gank]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator II


Hobgoblin II x5

Pretty standard fit!
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2012-12-14 04:37:03 UTC
I agree ... what is a non-minmatar ship doing on the top of the "performance" ladder !

Its outrageous afterall that a battlecruiser dedicated on the sole purpose of wielding battleship weapons could overdps and outrange a cruiser !
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-12-14 04:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
Liang Nuren wrote:
Please post your 26k EHP kiting Talos fit that's worth a ****.

-Liang

[Talos, NanoFacemelt]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I


Hobgoblin II x5

This is probably the most common talos fit I see (plenty of people drop the nano for another TE)

Noisrevbus wrote:

Talos are so quick (~3km/s)
uwot?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#72 - 2012-12-14 05:18:21 UTC
I asked for a kiting Talos fit that wasn't garbage and this is what you came back with? This is what you think obsoletes the Vagabond? Really????

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#73 - 2012-12-14 05:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Liang Nuren wrote:
I asked for a kiting Talos fit that wasn't garbage and this is what you came back with? This is what you think obsoletes the Vagabond? Really????

-Liang


If you now claim that 100mn taloi are the best way to fit that ship you are way worse at this game than i thought!


Also yes its pretty much what obsoletes the vaga as it fills exactly the same niche, except its better in every important way!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#74 - 2012-12-14 05:26:12 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I asked for a kiting Talos fit that wasn't garbage and this is what you came back with? This is what you think obsoletes the Vagabond? Really????

-Liang


If you now claim that 100mn taloi are the best way to fit that ship you are way worse at this game than i thought!


The posted fit is neither nano nor kiting. It has no webs and no real frigate defense to speak of. I find it funny that people who claim the Talos works against frigates always cite my videos and then disregard everything I say about how to make the ship and fit work.

This ship and fit in no way obsoletes the Vagabond and is outright suboptimal

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#75 - 2012-12-14 05:30:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I asked for a kiting Talos fit that wasn't garbage and this is what you came back with? This is what you think obsoletes the Vagabond? Really????

-Liang


If you now claim that 100mn taloi are the best way to fit that ship you are way worse at this game than i thought!


The posted fit is neither nano nor kiting. It has no webs and no real frigate defense to speak of. I find it funny that people who claim the Talos works against frigates always cite my videos and then disregard everything I say about how to make the ship and fit work.

This ship and fit in no way obsoletes the Vagabond and is outright suboptimal

-Liang


And it needs neither, as i already posted in a 1vmany situation you can use links/snakes to make up for the speed disadvatge and in smalls cale fleets you have your fleet m8s ready to take the ship off your back!

The vaga has no web either and a neut really isnt much of a anti frig measure (due to nos).


Also i have never seen a single one of your videos nor have i ever cited one of them
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#76 - 2012-12-14 05:39:35 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

And it needs neither, as i already posted in a 1vmany situation you can use links/snakes to make up for the speed disadvatge and in smalls cale fleets you have your fleet m8s ready to take the ship off your back!

The vaga has no web either and a neut really isnt much of a anti frig measure (due to nos).

Also i have never seen a single one of your videos nor have i ever cited one of them


So your argument is that in a "one" v many situation when you have snakes and links that you magically don't need a web or other frigate defense. And somehow -- magically -- those neutron blasters have the tracking to hit anything. Man, you got any other whoppers to tell us? The ship fit posted is too slow to be a kiting ship and is focused purely on EFT DPS instead of actually applying it.

Really, the fit's just bad.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#77 - 2012-12-14 06:28:01 UTC
God how many times do you need to hear it?

TRACKING DOES NOT MATTER WITH KITING SHIPS! (at least not with ships such as an ac nado or a blaster talos as long as you dont get caught)). It also is fast enough, you can just heat in one directing and any frigates needs to burn in almost a straight line towards you to catch you, resulting in you tracking them fine. (also not all gangs have frigates with them)

Also you compeltly neglect that besides killing frigates the talos is just straight up better and that in gangs frigates are very easily dealt with!

Frig defense simply doesnt matter. The vaga does one thing better and thats killing frigates (and the cyna is a way better 100mn ship) yet the talos is a ok frig killer aswell.

(also 1600m/s is fast enough, ac canes are way slower as are nanodrakes and other kiting ships)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#78 - 2012-12-14 06:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
God how many times do you need to hear it? TRACKING DOES NOT MATTER WITH KITING SHIPS!


It is at this point that we can completely write you off as a total baddie. Literally nothing you can say will ever redeem you from the terribad player garbage that just came out of your mouth.

Quote:
also 1600m/s is fast enough


No, it really really isn't. But I can see why you would think the Vaga is useless if you think something so dumb.

-Liang

Ed: Frankly, at 1600 m/s we aren't even talking about "kiting" or "skirmish" combat anymore. We aren't even talking about a style of combat that the Vagabond should ever have been brought up for. We're talking about armor tanking speeds FFS.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#79 - 2012-12-14 06:58:24 UTC
No we are talking shield battlecruiser niveau, or shield zealot/deimos/ONI or arty thrasher niveau! If you think that you need a base mwd speed of over 1500 you plainly suck at kiting!

Tbh i dont know what you think is a good talos fit but lets look at one of yours:

http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13071699

Compared to a "normal" talos you lose range/dps/ehp to gain a web and a 100mn ab, meaning you have better anti friagte abilitys but will still loose to every competent drake/cane/harbi (and most cruisers aswell)!

Also it tracking simply doesnt matter you do almost full dps vs all thats bigger than 200m (i.e pretty much everything but some frigates).

But obviously you either are a pretty good troll or you simply suck at this game.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#80 - 2012-12-14 08:48:15 UTC
One of the best things about that fit is that EFT warriors like you will never understand what makes it so great. The thing about it is that the 100mn AB is fantastic at mitigating damage from larger sources than frigates. In a lot of ways, a mitigation tank works much better than an actual active tank - though combining the two can lead to some hilarious results. Even the web isn't just there for frigates - though I admit it works marvelously for them.

Furthermore, the strong focus on tracking is important because it lets me actually deal my DPS - and to a larger selection of targets - instead of imagine I'm dealing my DPS because the number in EFT looks big and round. Your assertion that you're dealing "almost full DPS" to anything bigger than 200m is simply bunk.

Don't get me wrong - there'll be times that you can effectively use the Talos fit you have there, but most of the time you'll be better off in something else. Especially once you start talking about 1600m/s being "fast enough" for kiting gangs. Hell, you can do that with battleships.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.