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Talos needs to be nerfed. Long live the Vagabond!

First post
Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#41 - 2012-12-12 07:49:00 UTC
Why SoMad wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Yeah, releasing stuff in pre-boosted mode (tier3, tech3, titans etc.) is plain silly. Even the pre-nerfed way is better, because at least it doesn't make other stuff obsolete.


I can't really think of anything that the Talos obsoletes. If it's anything, it's the Brutix... but the Vagabond? LOL.

-Liang


Brutix?

ROFL lrnships.


The Talos has nothing to do with the Brutix being obsolete. The Myrmidon does that just fine on its own. Lrn2ships.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#42 - 2012-12-12 07:50:33 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^


Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too.

So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock?


The Talos has many times worse tracking than the Vagabond, because the "tracking number" is only one element of the equation. Don't forget that the Talos has battleship guns to the Vagabond's cruiser guns.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#43 - 2012-12-12 08:03:25 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:

The discussion isn't really how much better Tier 3 BC are than HAC anyway.

The discussion is that they are better or even comparable (at all) at basicly a free price (especially considering how the BS-turrets come with the quite nifty option of performing well even with lower meta modules).

It's the same discussion we can hold regarding Tier 2 BC when compared to HAC.


I don't really agree. The Vagabond is flat superior to the Talos for small scale roaming gangs - and the Cynabal even more superior. The Talos is alright but you really are flying a pretty expensive glass cannon. The hull may come "free" (it doesn't) but the mods to fit on it certainly don't. The cost of fitting a Tier 3 BC is significantly higher than a Tier 2 BC and it's not the same discussion at all.

That isn't to say that there aren't problems with HACs, but I think comparisons between the Vagabond and the Talos are just outright laughable.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mr Yarrr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-12-12 11:25:59 UTC
All the t3 BCs will get nerfed, their mobility is a joke,

They match cruisers for speed and maneuverability, yet they should have a size and mass in line with BCs

They switched armour and shield for the infrastructure needed to fit big guns, that infrastructure should come with the same mass penalties as the equivalent armour; otherwise why not just stick some extra armour back on top and you'd have t2 BC with BS guns.
Noisrevbus
#45 - 2012-12-12 16:31:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Liang Nuren wrote:

I don't really agree. The Vagabond is flat superior to the Talos for small scale roaming gangs - and the Cynabal even more superior. The Talos is alright but you really are flying a pretty expensive glass cannon. The hull may come "free" (it doesn't) but the mods to fit on it certainly don't. The cost of fitting a Tier 3 BC is significantly higher than a Tier 2 BC and it's not the same discussion at all.

That isn't to say that there aren't problems with HACs, but I think comparisons between the Vagabond and the Talos are just outright laughable.

-Liang


It depends on how you define "small scale roaming". The key marker that define and differentiate a good roaming group is that they "up-engage" (same as most other groups). That doesn't mean they limit themselves to any specifics, rather, the other way around: they have a broader engagement-envelope, that involve up-engagement. They fight more things.

If you look at many competent small-scale roaming groups (and here we can define small scale as squad-sized gangs), they have predominantly changed over to Talos for broad use. The Vagabond may still see some use, and have not lost all niche, but the Talos have overtaken many roles. The role of the Vagabond has successively been limited more and more to what it does best, notably, ganking frigates. It has recieved a smaller engagement-envelope.

Let's take a quick detour over three paragraphs:
I'm not sure if these examples help, but the important bit is to understand the multiple levels this works on: During the nano era you could use "Vagabonds" to engage larger heavier gangs. That persisted through the initial post-nano era and continued to be functional over the initial use of your typical BC-gang. As time passed though, people not only grew more competent using such gangs [which limited perspectives will argue], but the reality of the environment chiseled out details in those gangs (prices gradually affected scaling etc.). So it's not single-dimensional in the sense that old "Vaga-gangs" could fight bigger BS-gangs ["because: OP"]: It also also gave incentives for the Vaga-gangs themselves to be larger etc.

Ontop of that, the Vaga then - just as it is today, was a competent solo-platform, that not only did what they do today well, but also dealt with varieties in the environment better (it was better at crushing the killzone of a bubble, building range to separate parts of hostile gangs; so even solo it was more flexible on the background of the environment, etc). That, too, persisted over the post-nano era into the Tier 2 BC era. The Talos took alot of that flexibility that still existed during the Tier 2 BC peak era. Not all of it of course, but it sent the Vaga further out on an edge.

Here comes the long overdue point of argument: So if you define "small scale roaming" as a handful of ships (~squad) with proper support the Talos have overtaken quite alot of even that slice. If you aim to engage medium-sized groups with a kiting concept today - you are more likely to pick Talos over Vaga, even if you yourself per definition are small. The slices keep getting sliced off, that's also why it's important to define what a definition imply; Vagas are still quite alright when you lack sufficient support and drop both your own squad size and your target pool lower than say: ~10 vs +/- 10. Is the Vaga better at popping frigates when solo? Of course it is, yet when you take all these dimensions and begin pairing up various combinations the Talos just hit so many sweetspots. It does too many things the Vaga do, sufficiently well, and then more ontop of it. That is the common plight of HAC to BC overall.

These multiple levels can be tracked in trends: not only do we fly less Vagabonds, but we also up-engage less with them, we up-engage less overall and when we up-engage the Talos seems preferrable. Hopefully this last bit helped unlocking some of the theoretical mumble. I like that overview, to explain what "multiple levels" imply, better myself anyway.

Back where we left off, to close this up:
That goes back to the point i argued regarding HAC overall. Prior to Crucible: BC were still very much within the HAC engagement envelope, now that is challenged (in part due to the introduction of new BC-countering ships, or ships for roles that involved countering BC-roles; amusingly enough, much of that introduction in turn was the introduction of new BC that shared problematism with the other BC and that has lead us to today with the new Cruisers etc).
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#46 - 2012-12-12 17:05:11 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^


Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too.

So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock?


The Talos has many times worse tracking than the Vagabond, because the "tracking number" is only one element of the equation. Don't forget that the Talos has battleship guns to the Vagabond's cruiser guns.

-Liang


How many frigs that threaten you aren't using an MWD? I know sig is factor, but once that bloom goes up... at 20km you start volleying them.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#47 - 2012-12-12 18:20:27 UTC
When you have so many ships, and you need a niche for each one of them, then tthe niches are rather small.

Oh, and even with MWD bloom, a frigate is way under large gun resolution (attack frigate are at 200 with MWD on). The threat come from the drones, not the blasters, even though there is a danger zone at 20 to 30km.
Aestivalis Saidrian
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#48 - 2012-12-12 19:18:44 UTC
Honestly, if I were to fly a roaming Talos, It'd be dualweb Armor fit. You can fit whatthehell buffer tanks on a Talos if you're willing to "Downgrade" to Ions. And still fit the MWD to go zoom.
Torothin
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#49 - 2012-12-12 19:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Torothin
For the sake of the argument, having the DPS that it has is one thing. But having the mobility and the tracking to go along with it is just complete crap. The vagabond used to be the kindgof hit and run small gang pvp. Get in get out and use speed and mobility to your advantage while packing a punch.

It was its bread and butter. Now the Talos does all those things but is just a tad less mobile but has the DPS and the tracking to make up for it. It's just way too mobile. Oh yeah, it's cheaper too and has a good insurance pay out..... I mean come on!
Roger Dew
TOILET'DUCK PRODUCTIONS
#50 - 2012-12-12 19:51:39 UTC
So what a lot of nerds here are saying:

"If a good pilot in a kiting ship starts to kite me, I should be able to catch them by pressing approach and spamming F2."

That's basically what I'm reading.

The Talos is a fantastic roaming ship, because most people in Eve that camp gates and roam are scrubs. You kite them and it doesn't take long to melt them with the mega-deeps. The downside of which is that all it takes is 1 scram and you're pretty much doomed. If a BC even gets transversal at close range on you then tracking will become an issue.

The kite Vaga was always a piece of ****, it has no capacitor to support long MWD usage which is generally what you're doing when kiting and was rediculous to fit with a medium neut (which you really want in a 200m kiting ship). For this reason the Cynabal with it's superior mobility and dps was always superior (if you say a nano Talos can come close to a Cyna or even a Vaga for mobility then you're mental).
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-12-12 20:09:42 UTC
When matar is not isnta win then come the whinematards...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#52 - 2012-12-12 20:35:38 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^


Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too.

So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock?


The Talos has many times worse tracking than the Vagabond, because the "tracking number" is only one element of the equation. Don't forget that the Talos has battleship guns to the Vagabond's cruiser guns.

-Liang


How many frigs that threaten you aren't using an MWD? I know sig is factor, but once that bloom goes up... at 20km you start volleying them.


Two things:
- This affects the Vagabond and Talos equally.
- I have historically had terrible experience volleying frigs at 20km unless they're flying straight at me.

The Vagabond has many times better tracking than the Talos, and the more you bullshit about it the less credibility you have.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#53 - 2012-12-12 20:40:54 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:

It depends on how you define "small scale roaming". The key marker that define and differentiate a good roaming group is that they "up-engage" (same as most other groups). That doesn't mean they limit themselves to any specifics, rather, the other way around: they have a broader engagement-envelope, that involve up-engagement. They fight more things.

If you look at many competent small-scale roaming groups (and here we can define small scale as squad-sized gangs), they have predominantly changed over to Talos for broad use. The Vagabond may still see some use, and have not lost all niche, but the Talos have overtaken many roles. The role of the Vagabond has successively been limited more and more to what it does best, notably, ganking frigates. It has recieved a smaller engagement-envelope.


Your entire post is hell bent on accusing the Talos of taking away the Vagabond's role. That's bullshit and we both know it. Not seeing Vagabonds has **** all to do with the Talos and everything to do with the Cynabal - and we still see Cynabals by the ******* truckload.

At this point you're just making bullshit up and forum warrioring with an agenda. Come on man. You're better than this.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Hemmo Paskiainen
#54 - 2012-12-12 20:56:58 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Say it with me:

CCP.
Are.
Working.
On.
Balancing.
ALL.
The.
Sh*t.


finlay getting time, waiting 4 yrs allready on my black op buff

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?

Noisrevbus
#55 - 2012-12-12 22:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Liang Nuren wrote:

Your entire post is hell bent on accusing the Talos of taking away the Vagabond's role. That's bullshit and we both know it. Not seeing Vagabonds has **** all to do with the Talos and everything to do with the Cynabal - and we still see Cynabals by the ******* truckload.

At this point you're just making bullshit up and forum warrioring with an agenda. Come on man. You're better than this.

-Liang


Quite the amount of censored words there, unbecomming Blink.

When talking dynamics i tend to tar those two ships with the same brush, so Cynabals whizzing on Vaga-land is a whole other discussion.

To put it as short as i can:

It ties into the discussion other people have regarding accuracy here. The Talos can miss twice the amount of shots and still maintain the same damage as a Vaga outside the range of the frigates' secondary tackle (which none of these ships want to be inside).

The second you have any sort of support around your ships the advantages of the Vaga, the excess tracking and speed, become limited. Apply a single web to any ship in the game and it will affect both those levels: accuracy and positioning, which further affect tracking (no bowed approach available when transversal drops). It hits the frigates well enough, and everything else better. The speed relative the tracking mechanics and the dynamics of it's weapon system is that great: how fast is a webbed Frigate? How fast is a free Talos? How many Talos does it take to volley a Frigate void of transversal? It doesn't matter if you web the Talos back unless your gang volley them like they volley you*; because they will just cycle through you and cut loose - and stand a better chance going offensive to blitz Recon too (at lower risk).

The example peaks when hostiles are bolstered with numerical superiority and have both Recons and Frigates. What option is better then? How common are those gangs? Likely, the most common engagement scenario in the game.

It also cover all scales: they can be small, medium or large and still retain those properties.

The only time you utilize the excess tracking and speed is when you limit your target pool to match that; you need it because you are not properly supported, and whatever you encounter can not either be supported (since the Vaga is not equipped to deal with that support, while the Talos is - and the Vaga take a larger financial risk when you encounter those well-supported gangs, that are pretty common if you roam around and attempt to engage varieties).

This limit your target pool to a small slice of the small-slice or the cretins that fly completely unsupported in numbers.

At the same time we shouldn't spit too much at the Vaga, because that is the appeal it still has: slim pickings (run and gank, as opposed to gank and run, or gank and regroup). It's just that it isn't very good at disengagement anymore, even though admittedly better than the Talos at not getting caught in the first place. That's useful for penetrating into territory, but the envelope is nonetheless smaller, the encouragement to engage.

Small scale roaming, at least in my book, is about creating good-fight scenarios by attempting to take interaction served.

Not necessarily commit, or stand your ground - but to engage and attempt to score kills while denying losses: ie., fight.

ed., *) That's not to say the Talos is particularily good at it, it has it's own problems facing the "bottom" of the game. Which is why i don't like the ships. In fact, the Talos suffer similar issues as today's Vaga, just not as pronounced or with a pricetag worth mentioning. The same goes for the new Cruisers. Which in turn is why i've spoken out against the rebalance initiative (not that it's bad, i just don't see it dealing with the underlying issue or resulting in something notably better over time, on the ship-changes alone - while alot of resources and time have gone into it rather than elsewhere).
Noisrevbus
#56 - 2012-12-12 23:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
I'm really just waxing anecdotes here now, but another quite amusing example of all this is looking at what DID trend in the Vagas place. Once again i'm going to use the loaded term "the good groups", but it's there for a reason. Not to put someone else down, but to point to fore-runners of trends.

After the faction-changes, several of the old roaming groups simply replaced the Vaga with Drams instead. Similar trends began peaking up a little bit with the AF and Oneiros change as well (look at PL for example). That too is somewhat limited against the speedy blap of Tier 3 BC, but was fairly effective against the BS and Drake blob paradigm in 2010/11, and the ideal it rested upon was a small part of re-populizing the Hurricane.

The concept built around the ability to sustain BS+HML damage even when under basic secondary tackle (similar to AB Tech III), forcing Cruiser-sized blap to become effective against it. The engagement envelope of such gangs is definately smaller than older HAC-gangs as well, but it rested upon similar principles and application; potentially killing support under superior fire and disengaging, which gave them engageability by having staying power on the grid without forced commitment similar to DP HACs but tactically closer to old nano (with DP Frigates, Logis and the odd cloaky DP/100mn support in EW roles).

It hasn't really hit home because of the re-profileration of offensive (cruiser-) turrets (insta-canes, the new cruisers, blapping talos, ahac-remnants etc); but it's definately something i'd recommend people to try out against larger mainline fleet concepts because you can deal quite well with the odd BS-turret and Missile, where that still remain (mael, rokh, baddon, drake, tengu, bombers etc., where the support is not greater than your gang total).

Maybe it's something the new frigates and logis can look into as well, but it's the same thing there comparing tech I fluff to the bottom threshold: the devil is in the details, the techy gangs relied upon min-maxing their features to be able to do it. The new ships are good but they lack some of those details, and they will be flown without that attention to detail while the world around them will shift to accomodate more for their profileration in other use (ie., as small tackle in larger mixed gangs; or relative the appeal of the new Cruisers etc.).
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#57 - 2012-12-13 00:08:12 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^


Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too.

So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock?


The Talos has many times worse tracking than the Vagabond, because the "tracking number" is only one element of the equation. Don't forget that the Talos has battleship guns to the Vagabond's cruiser guns.

-Liang


How many frigs that threaten you aren't using an MWD? I know sig is factor, but once that bloom goes up... at 20km you start volleying them.


Two things:
- This affects the Vagabond and Talos equally.
- I have historically had terrible experience volleying frigs at 20km unless they're flying straight at me.

The Vagabond has many times better tracking than the Talos, and the more you bullshit about it the less credibility you have.

-Liang


You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.

I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.

Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.

And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#58 - 2012-12-13 00:43:44 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.

I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.

Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.

And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.


I wouldn't call it shredding frigs and the fact you're citing that video illustrates how little of it you understood. Go watch it again - I spend an enormous amount of time doing two things:
- Shooting from 40km+
- Making people fly directly towards me.

The Vagabond tracks many many times better than the Talos - it's just a fact. It kills frigs far more reliably, and in many ways it's just a flat superior ship. The ability for the Talos to "load void and flay a target" - especially in the kind of fit I was flying - is utterly ridiculous. Have you even flown the ship or are you just complaining? Because it damn sure doesn't fly like you think it does.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#59 - 2012-12-13 01:51:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.

I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.

Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.

And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.


I wouldn't call it shredding frigs and the fact you're citing that video illustrates how little of it you understood. Go watch it again - I spend an enormous amount of time doing two things:
- Shooting from 40km+
- Making people fly directly towards me.

The Vagabond tracks many many times better than the Talos - it's just a fact. It kills frigs far more reliably, and in many ways it's just a flat superior ship. The ability for the Talos to "load void and flay a target" - especially in the kind of fit I was flying - is utterly ridiculous. Have you even flown the ship or are you just complaining? Because it damn sure doesn't fly like you think it does.

-Liang


My experience with the vagabond far outweighs my talos experience . If you watch Kil2's stuff you can see what i mean about loading void. He demonstrates it perfectly against a drake. That's something you just cant do in a vaga, take out reasonably tanked missile ships. The vaga relies on out-ranging most of the incoming damage and but doesnt have the straight up killing power of other HAC's/BC's in terms of in-your-face damage.

For projection and tracking, yes the vagabond is superior. For tank, DPS and cost the talos is superior. Tracking enhancers buffed the vaga, but they also increased that danger 'kill-zone' of other ships - for example the hurricane can do more damage than a vagabond but was always limited by it's falloff. With the TE changes is can easily keep up with the vagabond inside point range... unless you for out 70% of the vagabonds hull price on a 30km point and sit further out.

I don't think either ship should be nerfed - i feel the vagabond is a little out of date though, which is maybe the point this thread should have made instead of straight out saying the talos replaces the vagabond...
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#60 - 2012-12-13 04:13:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.

I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.

Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.

And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.


I wouldn't call it shredding frigs and the fact you're citing that video illustrates how little of it you understood. Go watch it again - I spend an enormous amount of time doing two things:
- Shooting from 40km+
- Making people fly directly towards me.

The Vagabond tracks many many times better than the Talos - it's just a fact. It kills frigs far more reliably, and in many ways it's just a flat superior ship. The ability for the Talos to "load void and flay a target" - especially in the kind of fit I was flying - is utterly ridiculous. Have you even flown the ship or are you just complaining? Because it damn sure doesn't fly like you think it does.

-Liang


Its true that a solo talos has a harder time killing friagtes than the vaga (but the tracking formula helps, 0 transversal = full damage), this stilld oesnt cahnge the fact that against pretty much everything else the talos is much better, it has sufficient speed (especially if snakes/linked vs unspported stuff), it has more dps, more range, simlar tank!

Also the big going point for the vaga the anti frig capabilitys becomes void if you start to think in gang terms, 5 talos and a rapier are simply better than 5 vagas and a rapier, because then you end up beeing able to kill every frig almost instantly!


And the main going point of the vaga vs the talos (and pretty much any other ship) is its speed, but above a certain point more speed doesnt really help you, and that point can be pretty much reached in a talos with snakes/links!


And i also think that tier3s arent very helpfull atm, they kind of killed the kiting cruisers off !