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Talos needs to be nerfed. Long live the Vagabond!

First post
Author
Aestivalis Saidrian
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#81 - 2012-12-14 09:04:28 UTC
Well, to be fair that's with uber skirmish links, right? Sorry for the dumb question, I often EFT warrior because I enjoy theorycrafting.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#82 - 2012-12-14 09:25:26 UTC
I have removed a personal attack from this thread. Don't make me come back in here again.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-12-14 10:19:54 UTC
Ok, since Retribution, the Talos is no longer more mobile than comparable attack cruisers, and this discussion is pretty much moot. Yes, some attack cruisers are still slower than their racial Tier 3, but the mobilest Tr3s are now easily outmaneuvered by their racial attack cruisers. And getting caught by a Thorax when you zoom around in your Talos can really only end one way.

Balance achieved? Yes.

I also don't see tier 3s in any way overpowered, artillery alpha is perhaps a stupid mechanic but it's not just limited to Nadoblob camps.

Tier 3s are different, they are a new ship class with their own strengths and weaknesses, and many people enjoy flying them- not a bad thing.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#84 - 2012-12-14 10:31:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
One of the best things about that fit is that EFT warriors like you will never understand what makes it so great. The thing about it is that the 100mn AB is fantastic at mitigating damage from larger sources than frigates. In a lot of ways, a mitigation tank works much better than an actual active tank - though combining the two can lead to some hilarious results. Even the web isn't just there for frigates - though I admit it works marvelously for them.



-Liang


Oh i know perfectly well how oversized ab ships behave, the problem with the talos is that due to guns, if you can hit them they can hit you, especially as you dont outtrack any close range medium guns. Furthermore you dont have a scram on there meaning they will be able to keep up and simply win the dps/ehp race!
Tara Read
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#85 - 2012-12-14 11:37:17 UTC
I'm just going to leave my two cents on the Talos. It's not a niche boat by any means. It's a wonderful ship and nothing needs to be changed about it. The ability to hit a target out to 50km with Null and still do 1600 m/s with roughly 800 dps makes it such a joy to fly.

There I said it. Other hulls it feels like a chore. Others you need to faction fit to make them stand out for a certain role but the Talos all I do is hop in it and it feels so natural to fly. I know what I can do in this ship. Sure it's "squishy" but that isn't the point. Kiting and speed while laying on excellent damage is just so so nice.

Slap some ECM drones in there and it's even better. I would say a pre nerf shield nano Cane the standard for a Piracy ship but the Talos is on the top of my list. It's why I have three fully fitted ready to go and refuse to sell any to even corp members.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#86 - 2012-12-14 12:20:53 UTC
Sister Lumi wrote:
HACs didn't need anything to kill them, most of them are obsoleted by their own terribleness
Confirming that my 'lone eagle became sentient at one point and made her only good move by self-reprocessing herself.

BECAUSE OF NAGA

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#87 - 2012-12-14 15:41:06 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
One of the best things about that fit is that EFT warriors like you will never understand what makes it so great. The thing about it is that the 100mn AB is fantastic at mitigating damage from larger sources than frigates. In a lot of ways, a mitigation tank works much better than an actual active tank - though combining the two can lead to some hilarious results. Even the web isn't just there for frigates - though I admit it works marvelously for them.



-Liang


Oh i know perfectly well how oversized ab ships behave, the problem with the talos is that due to guns, if you can hit them they can hit you, especially as you dont outtrack any close range medium guns. Furthermore you dont have a scram on there meaning they will be able to keep up and simply win the dps/ehp race!


I won a DPS/EHP race against a Proteus that landed at zero on me and scrammed me.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#88 - 2012-12-14 15:48:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have removed a personal attack from this thread. Don't make me come back in here again.


Edit (Off topic) - ISD Tyrozan
Entrepreuna
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#89 - 2012-12-14 15:57:04 UTC
You guys are truly delusional if you do not think that the Talos made the Vagabond obsolete. Null can hit frigs from like 15-30km out. A Talos is basically a Vagabond but with Hybrids and way more DPS. The DPS is fine that's one thing. But again, it is WAY too mobile. Axe some of it's agility and a little bit of speed. This ship should not be some sort of LSE buffed kiting monster...... Anyone that says what I just wrote isn't true then you are delusional and biased because you actually fly this ship.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#90 - 2012-12-14 16:18:29 UTC
Entrepreuna wrote:
You guys are truly delusional if you do not think that the Talos made the Vagabond obsolete. Null can hit frigs from like 15-30km out. A Talos is basically a Vagabond but with Hybrids and way more DPS. The DPS is fine that's one thing. But again, it is WAY too mobile. Axe some of it's agility and a little bit of speed. This ship should not be some sort of LSE buffed kiting monster...... Anyone that says what I just wrote isn't true then you are delusional and biased because you actually fly this ship.


You are aware that we're talking about 1600 plate/trimkark armor tanking speeds in this thread right? The Vagabond should never even have been brought up.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Torothin
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#91 - 2012-12-14 16:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Anybody that thinks we are talking about armor tanking in this thread Edit - Personal attack - ISD Tyrozan
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#92 - 2012-12-14 18:25:30 UTC
Torothin wrote:
Anybody that thinks we are talking about armor tanking in this thread is a moron.


The current consensus in this thread appears to be that 1600 m/s is "nano". That's the kind of speeds you can get by slapping a MWD, 1600 plate, and a few trimarks on something. Hell, that's battleship speeds. Obviously the Vagabond is obsolete when you're talking about things battleships are fine at.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-12-14 19:25:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Entrepreuna wrote:
You guys are truly delusional if you do not think that the Talos made the Vagabond obsolete. Null can hit frigs from like 15-30km out. A Talos is basically a Vagabond but with Hybrids and way more DPS. The DPS is fine that's one thing. But again, it is WAY too mobile. Axe some of it's agility and a little bit of speed. This ship should not be some sort of LSE buffed kiting monster...... Anyone that says what I just wrote isn't true then you are delusional and biased because you actually fly this ship.


You are aware that we're talking about 1600 plate/trimkark armor tanking speeds in this thread right? The Vagabond should never even have been brought up.

-Liang


Bah, if anything we're talking about carrier speed here. 1600m/s unheated/unlinked for a BC is slow! You heard it here first. Really, sieged Dreads are faster.

How about you watch Kil2s stream once and see how well the Talos handles frigs. I know, looking outside of always-linked Amamake Ganks can be dangerous, but hey - Who dares, wins.

Oh, and please show me that killmail where you outbrawled a Proteus in your 100mn Talos. I really want to see that.

Oh, and while we're at it: How exactly are you avoiding dmg with that 100mn Talos besides staying at range? If you get under your opponents tracking you outrun your own guns. Even with 3 TEs you can't project dmg as well as the standard Talos fit. You explode if anything so much as sneezes at you. You give up one of the two things that make the t3 BCs what they are - Damage.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#94 - 2012-12-14 19:34:32 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:

Bah, if anything we're talking about carrier speed here. 1600m/s unheated/unlinked for a BC is slow! You heard it here first. Really, sieged Dreads are faster.

How about you watch Kil2s stream once and see how well the Talos handles frigs. I know, looking outside of always-linked Amamake Ganks can be dangerous, but hey - Who dares, wins.

Oh, and please show me that killmail where you outbrawled a Proteus in your 100mn Talos. I really want to see that.

Oh, and while we're at it: How exactly are you avoiding dmg with that 100mn Talos besides staying at range? If you get under your opponents tracking you outrun your own guns. Even with 3 TEs you can't project dmg as well as the standard Talos fit. You explode if anything so much as sneezes at you. You give up one of the two things that make the t3 BCs what they are - Damage.


A few comments:
- I love how you try to cloud the issue about how slow 1600 m/s is.
- I have watched Kil2's stream and I've listened to him talk about how powerless and defenseless he is every time he encounters a frigate. I used to watch his stream a lot, actually. :)
- Just watch the video for the Proteus instead.
- You avoid damage by having a low sig radius and by staying at range. I'm consistently able to avoid damage even from people who get on top of me.
- With the 3 TEs I actually project damage better than the "kiting" Talos fit posted earlier. I also am significantly faster and have a frigate defense.

Basically this is just you not knowing how to fly your ships - or mine.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-12-14 19:48:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

- I love how you try to cloud the issue about how slow 1600 m/s is.


Your own mighty 100mn Talos does 1740m/s. Thats not even 10% faster. After accelerating for 18secs. Neither the Drake, nor the Harby nor the Cane nor any Cruiser before Retribution besides Cyna/Vaga was faster. And nano-Drake/Cane/Harby worked, with 1200-1300m/s. I don't try to cloud the issue. There is no issue.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- I have watched Kil2's stream and I've listened to him talk about how powerless and defenseless he is every time he encounters a frigate. I used to watch his stream a lot, actually. :)

Yeah, that happens quite often. You know what also happens quite often? Said frigate exploding two secounds later because he managed to keep transversal low and just blew it out of the sky.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- Just watch the video for the Proteus instead.

I watched the only video I can in Germany, which has you flying a bunch of harpies, blobbing the living **** out of everything in Amamake. Your only killmail (that I could find) that has a proteus on it is you with a bunch of other guys with you not even being top damage.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- With the 3 TEs I actually project damage better than the "kiting" Talos fit posted earlier. I also am significantly faster and have a frigate defense.

Your Talos has 15+27km range with Null, the standard fit has 16+29. 1740m/s is 9% faster and you probably never reach it unless you burn in a straight line all day. Thats "significant"?

Liang Nuren wrote:

Basically this is just you not knowing how to fly your ships - or mine.

Yes, I'm sure that's it.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#96 - 2012-12-14 20:27:06 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:

Your own mighty 100mn Talos does 1740m/s. Thats not even 10% faster. After accelerating for 18secs. Neither the Drake, nor the Harby nor the Cane nor any Cruiser before Retribution besides Cyna/Vaga was faster. And nano-Drake/Cane/Harby worked, with 1200-1300m/s. I don't try to cloud the issue. There is no issue.


Nano Drake/Cane/Harby was never really nano - certainly not in the sense that they every impinged upon the Vagabond's role. And nor does the Talos. Additionally, that is not how the Talos performs and you're welcome to watch the videos and see for yourself. I'd say I get ~3.2km/s and I've chased down 100mn Tengus and beat on them with it. Amusingly, it's almost 100% immune to their fire as well.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Yeah, that happens quite often. You know what also happens quite often? Said frigate exploding two secounds later because he managed to keep transversal low and just blew it out of the sky.


You know what else happens quite often? Him blowing up.

Quote:
]
I watched the only video I can in Germany, which has you flying a bunch of harpies, blobbing the living **** out of everything in Amamake. Your only killmail (that I could find) that has a proteus on it is you with a bunch of other guys with you not even being top damage.


It's funny because it just goes to show how little information a killmail actually gives. That's such a good kill too. It's a shame you can't watch the video because the way that fight starts is with him landing at zero on me and me holding tackle while the cavalry arrives. It would have taken a long time but I wasn't in any danger after the first few seconds of the fight. And *THEN* I go nuke the T2 rigged Falcon that decloaked and jammed everyone. Lol

Quote:

Your Talos has 15+27km range with Null, the standard fit has 16+29. 1740m/s is 9% faster and you probably never reach it unless you burn in a straight line all day. Thats "significant"?


So it has equivalent range, much better tracking, is just as fast and pretty agile. Furthermore, its MWD doesn't turn off the moment anything gets within 15km. It works great in practice and has a frigate defense. Remember, playing Eve happens in Eve and there are some rather surprising differences to people who rely on only EFT to tell them what performs and what doesn't.

Quote:
Yes, I'm sure that's it.


I've got hours and hours of footage in that ship -- fighting outnumbered and outshipped -- that says it is what's going on. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Tara Read
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#97 - 2012-12-14 22:54:11 UTC
Entrepreuna wrote:
You guys are truly delusional if you do not think that the Talos made the Vagabond obsolete. Null can hit frigs from like 15-30km out. A Talos is basically a Vagabond but with Hybrids and way more DPS. The DPS is fine that's one thing. But again, it is WAY too mobile. Axe some of it's agility and a little bit of speed. This ship should not be some sort of LSE buffed kiting monster...... Anyone that says what I just wrote isn't true then you are delusional and biased because you actually fly this ship.


Assuming how your 40 man gangs despair when 10 of us show up in nano bc's and kite you then scatter leads me to believe you are just frustrated and annoyed. But coming from TEST kiddies I'd expect no less. Speed only has it's advantages before you are caught. They make these other ships called Interceptor's for a reason.

You want to fly a competent makeup of ships? Don't bring AHACS to a flipping nano fight. Or better yet bring tackle and a competent FC. The Talos is fine the way it is. Comparing the Talos to the Vaga is like comparing a Megathron to a Brutix. Sure one may have more paper dps but it has more mass, bigger guns, can track less, and is a bigger target.

A Vaga has it's place as well as the Talos has it's as well. Stop bitching because you don't know how to counter or fly nano.
Voi Lutois
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2012-12-14 23:37:05 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have removed a personal attack from this thread. Don't make me come back in here again.


Im guessing since my post is missing it was me - but i don't see how any of what i said was a personal attack. Unless my post simply quoted the afore-mentioned issue?


Don't worry mine was removed for "trolling" because I used the word whine in my response.

Also GET EM LIANG!
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#99 - 2012-12-15 01:04:04 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Eve ate my orginal post :( .


In general, liang your videos show you at beeing at best a mediocre pvper which proves nothing in this discussion, your fit misses dps/range/ehp/agility to get sram immunity , it doesnt work solo (as anyone can just burn away) nor is it an actualy improvement over a real talos. (also 3200m/s is a number you achieve with heat and links, a mwd one has very similar speed)

The proteus killmail is bad and you could have done the same in a mwd talos (if youd suck less and handt been on 0 at the beginning). (same with the falcon)

100mn ships have their niche but its not a very big one and it certainly isnt what your using it in (blobbing people in amamake).



Lastly you can kite (kite not nano, even the vagabond isnt a naoship as nano=speed tank and it range tanks) with 1200m/s with no problem even without a web or neuts (watch for example fons rocket series for proof).


Lastly neither talos could actually do any harm at all to a competent 100mn tengu!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#100 - 2012-12-15 03:41:46 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Eve ate my orginal post :( .

In general, liang your videos show you at beeing at best a mediocre pvper which proves nothing in this discussion, your fit misses dps/range/ehp/agility to get sram immunity , it doesnt work solo (as anyone can just burn away) nor is it an actualy improvement over a real talos. (also 3200m/s is a number you achieve with heat and links, a mwd one has very similar speed)

The proteus killmail is bad and you could have done the same in a mwd talos (if youd suck less and handt been on 0 at the beginning). (same with the falcon)

100mn ships have their niche but its not a very big one and it certainly isnt what your using it in (blobbing people in amamake).

Lastly you can kite (kite not nano, even the vagabond isnt a naoship as nano=speed tank and it range tanks) with 1200m/s with no problem even without a web or neuts (watch for example fons rocket series for proof).

Lastly neither talos could actually do any harm at all to a competent 100mn tengu!


Wow, look how bad you are at this game. A few comments:
- It's not like you can't fit the MFS. It's that it delivers less real DPS than the tracking enhancers, which double as helping apply damage to smaller fry. I could potentially see switching out one TE for a MFS, but then you lose out on range and that's just silly.
- The primary goals of a 100mn fit is scram immunity and damage mitigation. That's what you're not understanding - you look at your pretty 30k EHP and it's a big number on EFT. But how does it fare when you're being focused fired by a bunch of BCs and battleships?
- The Proteus in question warped into my position at zero after scan probing me out. Amusingly, this is what I *wanted* him to do. The MWD Proteus would have died quite quickly to a range linked scram Proteus, and claiming otherwise is... well, stupid.
- I don't think that I'm the one blobbing when I'm fighting outnumbered and outshipped. I mean, perhaps there's blobbing going on, but I'm not the one doing it. Lol
- Yes, the Talos can do harm to a competent 100mn Tengu. I've done it. ;-)

Honestly, the more I talk to you guys the more I realize that Tuskers is full of terribads. 1600 m/s is nano and 1200 m/s is viable for kite tanking? Psch.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.