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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Adigard
RubberDuckies
#701 - 2012-12-09 13:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
C0ATL wrote:
Maybe CCP will listen... but most likely wont, so the only way I can affect them (even in a small way) is to stop paying for their product when they ruin it for me.


This is ultimately the correct answer. CCP FoxFour was aware of the incoming outcry against this change, and stated very readily that they (being CCP) were okay with it. His post basically saying if you enjoyed PvE you'd find a way to adapt was very telling.

Honestly a lot of us saw this coming, posted time after time the intended and unintended consequences, did testing across each wave of testing CCP made available, and kept pointing out that this change would negatively impact the quality of life of the standard (non-Tengu) missioner.

CCP deployed it anyway, because they're growing comfortable again with the 'double down even if it's stupid' button. Honestly missions are still do-able, but they're less fun.

I don't know... obviously we all have too much money and need to be punished or something. We've heard that as well, but pre-patch I never would have assumed the pilot of a passive tanked at the keyboard drone-using rattlesnake was 'winning Eve' in any of the standard ways and therefor needed nerfing.
C0ATL
Renegade Stars
Stellae Renascitur
#702 - 2012-12-10 06:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: C0ATL
Here is an idea... How about - if you pretend that you did this for the reason of making missions interesting and not a boring grind-fest - instead of ripping off a completely inappropriate AI from Sleepers, you randomize mission spawns.

That's right... Make each mission spawn random NPCs in a certain combination of ships, all totalling to an average value, equal to what it was before. Or at the very worst, make 5 variants for each mission, where the spawns are fixed, and the random part is related to what variant you get when you accept it from agent. Such an improvement would keep things interesting, as well as committing people to adapt to the new variants of the mission (given that 'adapting' seems to be the theme here), as well as improving the overall mission difficulty, given that players will not know the spawn composition and will need to think on their feet on how to approach the situation.

Oh but wait... that would require actually working on the matter and doing something that isn't as easy as taking an already existing AI and stuffing it into mission NPCs without thinking of what that would bring to your player-base.


Good job.
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#703 - 2012-12-10 08:57:55 UTC
New ISK sink and more grind time for ISK.
Eve is not fun anymore just a second workplace.
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#704 - 2012-12-10 20:57:14 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.



How soon is soon ??? is it much later than I sooner expected ???
is it sooner than, it was then ,or is it still later than, some time today ?
Col Arran
Doomheim
#705 - 2012-12-11 03:24:56 UTC
I want the SP I put into drones reimbursed so I can actually put it into something useful now, thanks for wasting my time CCP.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#706 - 2012-12-11 03:28:50 UTC
I am still running missions with all my drones and have had no problems with them at all. I also stay at keyboard the whole time also.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#707 - 2012-12-11 07:33:38 UTC
I am not sure how folk are managing to lose drones in null anomalies.

The frigates do tend to dislike drones. But high-level null anomalies spawn fairly few frigates, and in my experience frigate spawns can be easily sniped with sentries or, if they manage to get too close, smartbombed. Occasionally, the entire room will go after a single sentry drone, but recalling the sentries and re-deploying them once aggro shifts is not a terribly difficult procedure. If anything, the anomalies go faster now because most of the time the non-frigate NPCs will leave sentries alone, so they do not have to be recalled after every new wave, and the spawns change targets faster, so a player has to wait for less than five seconds before re-deploying drones. A single repper is usually sufficient to keep a sentry or light drone alive unless it draws full room aggro, so in most cases it's a non-issue anyway.

So far I have not lose a single drone either to belt or to anomaly NPCs. It seems as though the folk having the most trouble are running multiple accounts or are trying to AFK-run their sites.

I think the issue with missions is that they were never designed to be soloed under an AI which actively goes after drones. I have not run missions in a while, but do recall seeing some missions spawn a large number of frigate-sized NPCs. The solution may be to rebalance mission spawns.
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#708 - 2012-12-11 07:36:36 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I am still running missions with all my drones and have had no problems with them at all. I also stay at keyboard the whole time also.



It Always amazes me that when you have thousands of complaints and CCP Even admits its a issue ,you have two or three that have to say Well it hasn't affect me yet

I have never had a laptop battery catch fire, but i know some who have
i have never lost my house to foreclosure ,flood or any other disaster , But i hear of it happening
I have never been a victim of a flesh eating bacteria , but some people are

The point is if it doesn't affect you , does it still matter ????

the answer is YES IT DOES

And if it was affecting you, i am sure you would be just as vocal about it, as the others that are Now .

Mund Richard
#709 - 2012-12-11 10:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Alice Katsuko wrote:
I am not sure how folk are managing to lose drones in null anomalies.

[...]

I think the issue with missions is that they were never designed to be soloed under an AI which actively goes after drones. I have not run missions in a while, but do recall seeing some missions spawn a large number of frigate-sized NPCs. The solution may be to rebalance mission spawns.
+1

Second part is pretty much half of what I was complaining about before the patch, that sleeper AI work so well in WH because the whole thing was built on it, while missions weren't.

Then again, apart from the two admitted bugs, I dunno it may be manageable, but first CCP needs to fix those, so we can see...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Rengerel en Distel
#710 - 2012-12-11 13:33:40 UTC
They could always do like what was suggested, and revert to the old AI until they can make the new one work with missions.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Mund Richard
#711 - 2012-12-11 15:32:05 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
They could always do like what was suggested, and revert to the old AI until they can make the new one work with missions.

Yeah, like they did with the Unified Inventory...
... oh wait

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#712 - 2012-12-11 15:43:49 UTC
vasuul wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I am still running missions with all my drones and have had no problems with them at all. I also stay at keyboard the whole time also.



It Always amazes me that when you have thousands of complaints and CCP Even admits its a issue ,you have two or three that have to say Well it hasn't affect me yet

I have never had a laptop battery catch fire, but i know some who have
i have never lost my house to foreclosure ,flood or any other disaster , But i hear of it happening
I have never been a victim of a flesh eating bacteria , but some people are

The point is if it doesn't affect you , does it still matter ????

the answer is YES IT DOES

And if it was affecting you, i am sure you would be just as vocal about it, as the others that are Now .


Never did i say it didnt affect me, i said i had no problems with it. I expect to lose drones, just as most take into the cost of charges. The changes that have been made "Do not Bother Me"

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#713 - 2012-12-11 16:42:58 UTC
C0ATL wrote:
Here is an idea... (rabble,rabble) , you randomize mission spawns.

That's right... Make each mission spawn random NPCs in a certain combination of ships, all totalling to an average value, equal to what it was before. Or at the very worst, make 5 variants for each mission, where the spawns are fixed, and the random part is related to what variant you get when you accept it from agent.


I like this idea. It's also probably easier to reformat existing missions (as opposed to new content - which hopefully we will see updated one day - wth happens to the damsel?) I agree that one of the biggest factors making pve unexciting is predictability. I'm as guilty as anyone of initially reading the eve-survival guides to pick pve ships off in order until I memorized the triggers. I think randomized spawns (an occasional suprise) with randomized triggers (mucho importante!) would've been a much better way to manipulate the high-sec isk faucet than making missions a group task. On the one hand, I understand why they made the change. Any solo activity in a game completely based on pgc is counterproductive to the overall quality of the game. But the individual doesn't see it that way. We all start out solo and the capitalistic, cutthroat nature of the game doesn't always lend itself readily to cooperation. It doesn't even bother me that npcs switch targets, making drone use more difficult, or multi-spawn aggro. I don't mind either so much. Make missions more challenging. I just dislike being TD/EW'ed to 5km (virtual irrelevance) from 100km in a faction BS with faction tracking modules.

Yonis Kador
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#714 - 2012-12-11 18:50:32 UTC
The thing here is the CCP VERITAS and CCP FoxFour have both admitted things are broke and being looked into

They did not say suck it up and deal ADAPT or DIE

They said a post would be forthcoming So we wait with Baited breath
( personally i never understood that phrase ,I mean baited with what ? smelly fish or something )
eh whatever

If they did not see it as a problem, we would have been told so

but it is a problem and they know about it and so we wait for whatever happens next Shocked

Meanwhile those that say oh its all fine and peachy need to realize if it ,was, CCP would not be talking about a fix ..
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#715 - 2012-12-11 22:38:49 UTC
vasuul wrote:
The thing here is the CCP VERITAS and CCP FoxFour have both admitted things are broke and being looked into

They did not say suck it up and deal ADAPT or DIE

They said a post would be forthcoming So we wait with Baited breath
( personally i never understood that phrase ,I mean baited with what ? smelly fish or something )
eh whatever

If they did not see it as a problem, we would have been told so

but it is a problem and they know about it and so we wait for whatever happens next Shocked

Meanwhile those that say oh its all fine and peachy need to realize if it ,was, CCP would not be talking about a fix ..


So bottom line, it has been a week of hell, CCP has responded to every issue posted, including "important" stuff like the sound ships make when they blow up, but not a peep about the devastation rendered to high sec missions.

And people wonder why I scream "Conspiracy!" of CCP working with null sec to obliterate high sec income.
People, do your own research of the origins of the CCP dev's. Find out how many come directly from null sec and arrived at CCP with a hatred of high sec to start.

I read the interviews of the major decision-makers at CCP and realize the game that enjoyed playing will quite soon cease to exist, replaced by a game where sociopathic behaviour is not only tolerated, but the ONLY behaviour that will succeed in the game.
Rubinia Storm
Skeleton Liberation Front
#716 - 2012-12-12 10:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rubinia Storm
vasuul wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


How soon is soon ??? is it much later than I sooner expected ???
is it sooner than, it was then ,or is it still later than, some time today ?



It has been about five days since the above post from CCP FoxFour. I have seen no post from CCP about the matter. Has someone? If not, can CCP offer us at least an estimate on how soon is 'soon'? Also, if I may be so bold, the players will 'soon' start to get very slightly annoyed. Good thing CCP can afford that this soon again. Maybe CCP's 'soon' is shorter than players' 'soon' but for some reason I doubt that.

Also, on 9th of Nov 2012 CCP FoxFour wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Now as I am sure many of you are wondering why we have been silent in this thread it is because we found a defect with NPC, nothing to do with the AI, that we decided needed to be fixed. After fixing it and realizing exactly how broken things were we decided to remove the fix until a later date when we can properly balance the content to account for this fix. We have spent the last few weeks attempting to fix the defect, figure out the risk of it, and figure out if we should delay it or the AI changes. In the end we decided to go ahead with the AI and delay the defect fix.


Any new information about that 'delayed fix', other than we will get that fix 'after retribution'? I mean: it will be 'After Retribution' even if it comes out in 2020. If the Fix is (like I suspect) a fix that will make virtual life of a missioneer even harder, you might be wise to delay it a lot.

On a happier note, CCP FoxFour wrote on that same date: "I should hopefully have the lowered drone hate tested enough to put on Buckingham with the next update and will let you know when we do." Good thing the drone hate has been lowered. The mission runners might be really angry otherwise - I guess if the hate had not been lowered, the pilots would be losing drones before they are launched out of the drone bay. Blink

PS: I am not a mission runner and the changes of Retribution haven't really affected me much. Many friends and alliance mates however are, and have been affected so much that even I have heard enough about it. CCP, you might want to work on that 'soon' sooner rather than later.

Thank you for your time.
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#717 - 2012-12-12 11:18:52 UTC
Rubinia Storm wrote:
vasuul wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


How soon is soon ??? is it much later than I sooner expected ???
is it sooner than, it was then ,or is it still later than, some time today ?



It has been about five days since the above post from CCP FoxFour. I have seen no post from CCP about the matter. Has someone? If not, can CCP offer us at least an estimate on how soon is 'soon'? Also, if I may be so bold, the players will 'soon' start to get very slightly annoyed. Good thing CCP can afford that this soon again. Maybe CCP's 'soon' is shorter than players' 'soon' but for some reason I doubt that.

Also, on 9th of Nov 2012 CCP FoxFour wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Now as I am sure many of you are wondering why we have been silent in this thread it is because we found a defect with NPC, nothing to do with the AI, that we decided needed to be fixed. After fixing it and realizing exactly how broken things were we decided to remove the fix until a later date when we can properly balance the content to account for this fix. We have spent the last few weeks attempting to fix the defect, figure out the risk of it, and figure out if we should delay it or the AI changes. In the end we decided to go ahead with the AI and delay the defect fix.


Any new information about that 'delayed fix', other than we will get that fix 'after retribution'? I mean: it will be 'After Retribution' even if it comes out in 2020. If the Fix is (like I suspect) a fix that will make virtual life of a missioneer even harder, you might be wise to delay it a lot.

On a happier note, CCP FoxFour wrote on that same date: "I should hopefully have the lowered drone hate tested enough to put on Buckingham with the next update and will let you know when we do." Good thing the drone hate has been lowered. The mission runners might be really angry otherwise - I guess if the hate had not been lowered, the pilots would be losing drones before they are launched out of the drone bay. Blink

PS: I am not a mission runner and the changes of Retribution haven't really affected me much. Many friends and alliance mates however are, and have been affected so much that even I have heard enough about it. CCP, you might want to work on that 'soon' sooner rather than later.

Thank you for your time.




YES 1000 thank yous CCP Fox fire
as of today's patch

((( NPCs will now respect their authored threat ranges so the full room will not aggro a player on entering the dungeon.
Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. ))))

Big smileBig smileBig smile
Mund Richard
#718 - 2012-12-12 12:20:42 UTC
what?

Quote:
NPCs

  • The ‘Unknown’ faction will no longer show up on the Standings tab of the character sheet.
  • NPCs will now respect their authored threat ranges so the full room will not aggro a player on entering the dungeon.
  • Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.

    • Oh!
    Goodie!

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #719 - 2012-12-12 19:23:09 UTC
    Mund Richard wrote:
    what?

    Quote:
    NPCs

  • The ‘Unknown’ faction will no longer show up on the Standings tab of the character sheet.
  • NPCs will now respect their authored threat ranges so the full room will not aggro a player on entering the dungeon.
  • Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.

    • Oh!
    Goodie!


    Wow, you are easily handled by CCP.
    So people don't get room insta aggro. Good, they fixed something they never planned on wrecking.
    So people now won't be TD'ed out of existence. Great. Now how about damps and jams.

    And the fact that drones will be (I can make them work using the loophole that will be closed) still destroyed as a PvE platform exists.
    Mund Richard
    #720 - 2012-12-12 19:46:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    Wow, you are easily handled by CCP.
    So people don't get room insta aggro. Good, they fixed something they never planned on wrecking.
    So people now won't be TD'ed out of existence. Great. Now how about damps and jams.

    And the fact that drones will be (I can make them work using the loophole that will be closed) still destroyed as a PvE platform exists.
    Easily handled?
    More like, I'm happy that they finally did something.

    As far as handling drones goes, went out, collected a bunch of rat bounties, didn't have my lights or sentries targeted.
    But I did have EWAR and RR going on.
    Not sure that if I've had the goblin IIs out for longer they would have gotten agro or not, I'm not doing L4s right now, but at least as far as the few frigs that I needed to get rid of go, I could.

    Trust me, I still have my skepticism, I would still like to hear a few words from the devs (irrelevant from how much good that does), but at least they did fix some stuff that were clearly broken, and I'm happy for that start.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.