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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

First post
Author
Rubinia Storm
Skeleton Liberation Front
#721 - 2012-12-13 13:13:14 UTC
vasuul wrote:


YES 1000 thank yous CCP Fox fire
as of today's patch

((( NPCs will now respect their authored threat ranges so the full room will not aggro a player on entering the dungeon.
Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. ))))

Big smileBig smileBig smile




It was good to be wrong above. Thank you for the fix CCP.

However, you should never have gotten that bug to TQ. You should have caught the bug in your internal tests, and the player testers would have caught the bug if you had given it to them to test in test server. Different matter is, if you (CCP) had reacted the player input from test server -Your record with 'reacting to test server player input' isn't too great. You should really train couple of more levels of it: To level 3 at the very least.

The truth in the matter is, that most of us players like EVE, and we pay for it (in some form or other). We don't like to see bugs, which make playing the game even less fun. Therefore you (CCP) should not give those bugs to us. Do proper testing, listen and react to player input, do better, and get paid. If you don't, one of these days you might find yourself not getting paid anymore and that would be fun neither for you nor for us. (And it clearly is much less fun for the unemployed than us players - new games to play are more easily found than new jobs to do). Do better and thank you for the game.
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#722 - 2012-12-13 13:49:34 UTC
Rubinia Storm wrote:
vasuul wrote:


YES 1000 thank yous CCP Fox fire
as of today's patch

((( NPCs will now respect their authored threat ranges so the full room will not aggro a player on entering the dungeon.
Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. ))))

Big smileBig smileBig smile




It was good to be wrong above. Thank you for the fix CCP.

However, you should never have gotten that bug to TQ. You should have caught the bug in your internal tests, and the player testers would have caught the bug if you had given it to them to test in test server. Different matter is, if you (CCP) had reacted the player input from test server -Your record with 'reacting to test server player input' isn't too great. You should really train couple of more levels of it: To level 3 at the very least.

The truth in the matter is, that most of us players like EVE, and we pay for it (in some form or other). We don't like to see bugs, which make playing the game even less fun. Therefore you (CCP) should not give those bugs to us. Do proper testing, listen and react to player input, do better, and get paid. If you don't, one of these days you might find yourself not getting paid anymore and that would be fun neither for you nor for us. (And it clearly is much less fun for the unemployed than us players - new games to play are more easily found than new jobs to do). Do better and thank you for the game.



The biggest problem i see here is the lack of communication CCP has with its customer base
This is what led to the" Incarna "meltdown and system wide protests

I am glad our issues are finally being addressed But Silence breeds contempt ,
I have suggested in the past and will suggest now again That CCP be more forth coming on ,yes this is an issues ,yes we are trying to take care of it .... etc

When you say more info will be coming soon and we hear nothing , for almost a week , People jump to all kinds of conclusions

I know you at CCP try your best to make seamless roll outs of new patches, and that things don't always go as planned
Changes to the code sometimes have unexpected consequences , All your player base know this can happen

But Please be upfront about it , Leaving us in the dark ,Only makes the situation worse

I personally would like to see a sticky Of a bug list
you have the right idea with the post of feedback the first post listed know problems and crossed em off as they were fixed
but this issue never made the list ,Therefore a lot of people thought nothing would be done at all on it

Now that being said i am still hearing reports of drones being insta popped , if that is the case is it possible to lower the aggro to drones a bit ? or would this again have unintended consequences ???




Mund Richard
#723 - 2012-12-13 14:08:41 UTC
Holy droneshields, lots of quote gaps in that post.
vasuul wrote:
When you say more info will be coming soon and we hear nothing , for almost a week , People jump to all kinds of conclusions
My favorite ones were the "it's intended l2p" hordes.

vasuul wrote:
Now that being said i am still hearing reports of drones being insta popped , if that is the case is it possible to lower the aggro to drones a bit ? or would this again have unintended consequences ???
Lower drone agro only means that it happens more rarely. Problem is, the AI either swaps full agro at times, partially based on sig, or mixes up stuff for the glory of Tzeentch.

And the first volley (plus possibly the second by the time you notice and react) is more often than not enough to kill drones.
If a room has lots of longer range destroyers, forcing the signature-side of the story more won't be much help for frigates as well, and drones are also in a tight position if you send them after orbiting frigs.

Plus, if you are in a fleet, you will not see if they are going after your drones or your buddies when they de-aggress you, and what's worse will be totally clueless if they weren't shooting at you at the start.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#724 - 2012-12-13 23:52:39 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Holy droneshields, lots of quote gaps in that post.
vasuul wrote:
When you say more info will be coming soon and we hear nothing , for almost a week , People jump to all kinds of conclusions
My favorite ones were the "it's intended l2p" hordes.

vasuul wrote:
Now that being said i am still hearing reports of drones being insta popped , if that is the case is it possible to lower the aggro to drones a bit ? or would this again have unintended consequences ???
Lower drone agro only means that it happens more rarely. Problem is, the AI either swaps full agro at times, partially based on sig, or mixes up stuff for the glory of Tzeentch.

And the first volley (plus possibly the second by the time you notice and react) is more often than not enough to kill drones.
If a room has lots of longer range destroyers, forcing the signature-side of the story more won't be much help for frigates as well, and drones are also in a tight position if you send them after orbiting frigs.

Plus, if you are in a fleet, you will not see if they are going after your drones or your buddies when they de-aggress you, and what's worse will be totally clueless if they weren't shooting at you at the start.



yeah i see your points and they are well made
Rengerel en Distel
#725 - 2012-12-14 05:23:22 UTC
I still think they should tone down the drone hate to at least help out the people doing lower level missions where there are many more frigs. The level 4 + DED crowds will just have to adapt and hope they come out with a better drone UI soon.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Mund Richard
#726 - 2012-12-14 07:03:59 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I still think they should tone down the drone hate to at least help out the people doing lower level missions where there are many more frigs.
I imagine the AI is slapped to the rats, and not the missions, and as such it would take considerable mind-bogging coding to make exempts for every mission, and then some would be missed, causing petitions and extra pain in the ...
Yea, I don't think it's any likely to happen.
Not even sure if it should.
Just going by gallente ships, the destroyers should be able to manage just fine, next level we have Thorax/Vexor the one should have enough tracking with a web and blasters, the other enough agro generated by just using an ewar, same deal on BC level with the Brutix and Myrm.

I admit it's harder than it was for us, but in return, getting used to the new L4 dynamics won't be just as bad.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#727 - 2012-12-14 20:05:24 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I still think they should tone down the drone hate to at least help out the people doing lower level missions where there are many more frigs.
I imagine the AI is slapped to the rats, and not the missions, and as such it would take considerable mind-bogging coding to make exempts for every mission, and then some would be missed, causing petitions and extra pain in the ...
Yea, I don't think it's any likely to happen.
Not even sure if it should.
Just going by gallente ships, the destroyers should be able to manage just fine, next level we have Thorax/Vexor the one should have enough tracking with a web and blasters, the other enough agro generated by just using an ewar, same deal on BC level with the Brutix and Myrm.

I admit it's harder than it was for us, but in return, getting used to the new L4 dynamics won't be just as bad.


Yes, it is way harder for us than before, and that was this was all about in the first place, a HUGE HUGE nerf to mission icome, maybe all PvE income.

I have said it before, and I will say it again.
If PvE income is a variable income, and sources like moon goo are a static income, who wins with this release?
The moon goo income, the wh income (their AI does not change with this patch), FW income, they all remain the same, while ours goes down.
Mund Richard
#728 - 2012-12-14 20:20:15 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Yes, it is way harder for us than before, and that was this was all about in the first place, a HUGE HUGE nerf to mission icome, maybe all PvE income.

I have said it before, and I will say it again.
If PvE income is a variable income, and sources like moon goo are a static income, who wins with this release?
The moon goo income, the wh income (their AI does not change with this patch), FW income, they all remain the same, while ours goes down.
Moon goo still needs to be sold, so affected by market PvP.
FW... that's a can of worms, don't open it. And yes, that one needed the nerf.

Sure, drone hate hurts.
Not being able to "tank and spank" missions hurts dps -> isk.

But for instance I'm a lot more upset about the mission drop nerf we had a while ago personally.
I built my spare battleships from the refined T0 modules that dropped! Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#729 - 2012-12-16 03:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Junko Sideswipe
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


Any news yet?

My alliance has almost completely given up on killing ratters without having to resort to awoxing gangs. We aren't recruiting new players because we have no activities for them to do on their own anymore, now that they can't go out and solo in destroyers or ninja salvage. We needlessly lose ships, loot, and kills because rats decide to neut, ecm, and primary tacklers. It's an absolute mess and a real downer for small alliances like ours that roam nullsec looking for targets.

PIZZA CEO

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#730 - 2012-12-16 10:45:12 UTC
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


Any news yet?

My alliance has almost completely given up on killing ratters without having to resort to awoxing gangs. We aren't recruiting new players because we have no activities for them to do on their own anymore, now that they can't go out and solo in destroyers or ninja salvage. We needlessly lose ships, loot, and kills because rats decide to neut, ecm, and primary tacklers. It's an absolute mess and a real downer for small alliances like ours that roam nullsec looking for targets.


Read the new thread in this forum.
One fellow has done tremendously detailed reports about the impact on drones, buts does bot discuss secondary ships.
Given the data that he has provided, and doing some extrapolations, it will still be a disaster for you still, though much more random, and the lag until your null sec tacklers may be delayed.

The only way you will know is if you get in Duality and test it yourself.
When CCP put the wheels in motion to wipe out high sec income, I believe that tackling null sec PC frigates were considered collateral damage. Given that tackling ratters in a plex / anamoly/ belt is primarily a null sec endeavour, I am not surprised they have wiped out this game mechanic. To steal a phrase from Dune. the null sec income must flow.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#731 - 2012-12-16 16:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


Any news yet?

My alliance has almost completely given up on killing ratters without having to resort to awoxing gangs. We aren't recruiting new players because we have no activities for them to do on their own anymore, now that they can't go out and solo in destroyers or ninja salvage. We needlessly lose ships, loot, and kills because rats decide to neut, ecm, and primary tacklers. It's an absolute mess and a real downer for small alliances like ours that roam nullsec looking for targets.


I think CCP FoxFour's position previously was to dismiss your points as being invalid? Or something? Honestly I don't recall his exact post / want to dig back and find it. I recall him posting something about being able to land a frigate on a ratting carebear and living long enough to get DPS ships in... so you'd need to adapt. I think the ultimate solution was that you'd have to up-ship?

Also, FoxFour's gone for vacation, so don't hold your breath on a reply this year.
Mund Richard
#732 - 2012-12-16 23:10:29 UTC
Adigard wrote:
I think CCP FoxFour's position previously was to dismiss your points as being invalid? Or something? Honestly I don't recall his exact post / want to dig back and find it. I recall him posting something about being able to land a frigate on a ratting carebear and living long enough to get DPS ships in... so you'd need to adapt. I think the ultimate solution was that you'd have to up-ship?
But now I enjoy a stealth bomber decloaking next to me, and the QQ that's about to come in local chat! Twisted
Why, why do you want to nerf those deliscious tea...Evil
...I'm more and more slipping over to the dark side, ain't I?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Viribus
Lords of the Lockerroom
WE FORM YUG0SLAVIA
#733 - 2012-12-17 01:54:25 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just as a heads up guys you should be getting a post from one of us soon giving some details about what plans we have for the AI going forward. Sorry we have been so quiet, we have been trying to nail down a few things and figure out exactly what changes we want to make.


Any news yet?

My alliance has almost completely given up on killing ratters without having to resort to awoxing gangs. We aren't recruiting new players because we have no activities for them to do on their own anymore, now that they can't go out and solo in destroyers or ninja salvage. We needlessly lose ships, loot, and kills because rats decide to neut, ecm, and primary tacklers. It's an absolute mess and a real downer for small alliances like ours that roam nullsec looking for targets.


I think CCP FoxFour's position previously was to dismiss your points as being invalid? Or something? Honestly I don't recall his exact post / want to dig back and find it. I recall him posting something about being able to land a frigate on a ratting carebear and living long enough to get DPS ships in... so you'd need to adapt. I think the ultimate solution was that you'd have to up-ship?

Also, FoxFour's gone for vacation, so don't hold your breath on a reply this year.


Newbies can't up-ship. We used to have lots of newbie retention by teaching and encouraging new players to solo ratters in Thrashers and mission flip in highsec, neither of which are possible anymore for new players

Old players will almost always be able to adapt but this (unneeded and unwanted) change has basically destroyed two avenues of PVP and income for new players
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#734 - 2012-12-17 02:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Viribus wrote:
Old players will almost always be able to adapt but this (unneeded and unwanted) change has basically destroyed two avenues of PVP and income for new players


Not sure what to tell you? The Dev response on that front has been somewhere between "adapt or quit, we don't care" and "If you really really enjoyed it before we nerfed it, you'll find a way to enjoy it now, even though we made it harder for no good reason".

Honestly I have a hard time envisioning CCP adapting their new spaghetti code placed hodge-podge on top of their ancient spaghetti code to fix this one. I doubt they even understand the new rat AI code, considering how ham-fisted it's been implemented (see the tests run on the new AI). Also, see Malcanis's Law.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#735 - 2012-12-21 19:41:49 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Old players will almost always be able to adapt but this (unneeded and unwanted) change has basically destroyed two avenues of PVP and income for new players


Not sure what to tell you? The Dev response on that front has been somewhere between "adapt or quit, we don't care" and "If you really really enjoyed it before we nerfed it, you'll find a way to enjoy it now, even though we made it harder for no good reason".

Honestly I have a hard time envisioning CCP adapting their new spaghetti code placed hodge-podge on top of their ancient spaghetti code to fix this one. I doubt they even understand the new rat AI code, considering how ham-fisted it's been implemented (see the tests run on the new AI). Also, see Malcanis's Law.


Sorry, but no.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158421#post2158421

We were promised specific PVP fixes that were to go live "after Retribution". Retribution has launched, it's time to provide a timeline as to when we can expect these changes.
Mund Richard
#736 - 2012-12-21 19:50:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Vatek wrote:
Sorry, but no.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158421#post2158421
We were promised specific PVP fixes that were to go live "after Retribution". Retribution has launched, it's time to provide a timeline as to when we can expect these changes.
I already made a snarkly comment in the other thread, so putting that aside...
CCP FoxFour wrote:
After fixing it and realizing exactly how broken things were we decided to remove the fix until a later date when we can properly balance the content to account for this fix.

Wait, what?
What content are you going to balance around what?
The whole mission running and plexes around the new AI like you should have done it at the implemention, you know, how the new AI was usually deployed with places designed for it?
That will probably take a while... Roll

If not that, I'm not sure what kind of content changes need be done for this fix.
...And I'm dying to know, really interested on what's under the hood.
Would it mess up WH and Incursion if deployed hastily, or something?
Because I cannot really imagine it being worse than full room agro + perma TD + full room agro swap on drones on deploying.
Maybe I lack in imagination.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Adigard
RubberDuckies
#737 - 2012-12-21 23:49:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Vatek wrote:
Sorry, but no.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158421#post2158421

We were promised specific PVP fixes that were to go live "after Retribution". Retribution has launched, it's time to provide a timeline as to when we can expect these changes.


Sorry, but no.

CCP FoxFour likely isn't in any position to keep those promises. Putting aside the fact that he was involved in half a dozen different project since making that promise, he's not even on that team anymore.
Unoob Udumb
Doomheim
#738 - 2012-12-27 14:20:02 UTC
Seriously?

I was doing "The Assault (Serpentis)" last night in my Vargur. 2nd Pocket, I landed 15-20km from a group of Elite frigates. Since they scrambled me, I had to kill them and couldn't blitz the mission. Fine, why not?

Launched 5xHobgoblins II when said frigates were orbiting 7-8km from my ship. Watched the blinking brackets around the frigs the whole time (which is pretty boring, isn't it?). As soon as they turned yellow instead of red (my drones had not taken damage yet), I smashed my shortcut "Return to drone bay". One of them was multi-webbed and died quickly before being able to get back in my drone bay. That's with all drone support skills at V, except Drone durability (IV). Since said drone was still 5-6km away from my ship, it would have died anyway.

While I'm all for a system that "punishes" people not paying attention, you've got to admit this is INSANE!
DSpite Culhach
#739 - 2012-12-28 05:39:52 UTC
Looking at this whole thing as compared to how things work in "inferior" fantasy MMO's *cough* ...

Those OTHER games have the ability to make some missions so hard as to be next to impossible. You might have to take a well fitted group multiple times in order to get to the end goodies, and that's ok, cause a wipe is just, well, lost time.

Missions in EVE are a little different. Every time we enter a mission we are putting non-refundable assets on the line. Does it mean we should get easy street? Hell no. I do WANT the missions to be frakking annoying and harsh, this is EVE dammit !!! but where do you draw the line?

Missions as they are seem to be a very bad Skinner's Box. They are not being run for shinies, cause there isn't any, they boil down to X loot and Y bounties, and everyone treats them as "just the grind I have to endure to finance my pirate ways".

Give us poor suckers the odd rare loot drop, or odd tough battleship that causes us to ring our mates on the phone in the middle of the night and yell "OMG OMG logon now help me kill this guy!!!".

Currently It's dull, it's dreary, it's EVE Survival predictable. You could write SCRIPTS - [Disclaimer: botting is evil and if you do it you will go to hell] - to run them for you, they are THAT scripted.

I have NEVER had anything wake me up faster at the keyboard when i was dozing off, then when I have misread the odd mission info on EVE Survival, shot the wrong thing, and suddenly I was covered in frigates thinking "THAT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN! ARGGH!" ... I actually like that feeling, and it should happen more often.

Will it happen? Nope, cause such things might screw the economy, or a million other reasons both sides of these debate usually pick, but all I know is that patches on top of patches aren't the answer. You can only patch PONG so many times before you say screw it, and write a 3D tennis game.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Makavi Astro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#740 - 2012-12-29 21:04:04 UTC
I actually like that: "we won't be able to do 10/10's with <10 people"
That brings some extreme challenge.
" let's what you will do having 5-6 scrams and webs on you, with citadels hitting your ship.."
Great! There will be at least something impossible!

Some stuff will be too hard, but who said you MUST be able to go through anything? Why not having some stuff people actually sweat trying to get over?
It would be to see talks like these: "hey you know I survived 4:39 minutes in that complex!" "Wow that is some hardcore stuff!"

I really would like to see some if that.
Also about drones.. I fly arbitrator, and this change will affect me, and it will be more exciting to use them, I will need more caution fielding them.
I see this: "so I won't be able to AFK in a Dominix?"
Wtf?? Are you playing a game to be away from keyboard? Really? I think they should introduce space dragons, they fly around and eat AFKers.

But drones getting some buff would be cool xD, since we are going to loose them.