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[Proposal] Fix Wardec Exploits

First post First post First post
Author
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#201 - 2012-11-10 14:50:32 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:

I'm a programmer, not a designer..


Demoted from Brogrammer already? That's disappointing.

Lol

Where I am.

CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#202 - 2012-11-10 15:07:28 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Musiaba Schenoly wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Since you can't spell "Iceland," I'll take that bet.



first ccp state in this threat

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I wish I was as smart as you Sad

????????????????
I cant get it, really wtf

7 weeks after posting an exploit here came csm and dev finally - to barrack a player who is more committed than other in that game?

What is that here - election campaign and local smack during drink time???

Here he posted his suggustions you "DEV" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2149824#post2149824
I like em more than your analysis anywhere...oh wait which?


First, Aleks is CSM, a player representative to CCP, and that wasn't the first CSM response.

Secondly, Punkturis' trolls are considered an Icelandic national treasure.

While it might seem a bit rude and/or shocking, its only recently that we've had the devs been able to post as much as they've had, and that is a good thing.

I swear once you get used to it, you'll feel honored when Punkturis trolls you.

Added to that: she does get things done. She'll laugh at you one minute and fulfill your wildest (coding) dreams the next.

So can understand why someone might be upset about her comment, take it in stride. Part of the uncommon culture EVE has (and there are far worse things you can get properly upset about).

Anyway, thanks Punkturis!


reading your post on a Saturday morning made me soooo happy! thank you! This will be a great weekend Lol

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

Frankster Ijonen
Butlerian Crusade
#203 - 2012-11-10 15:18:53 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Pay my trip to Island, give me from 1 to 3 days to get to get to know the current game-system and where to change what and which language is used. After that annother day to talk to everybody about all the balancing-concerns to get it right for everybody (I think the system i thought of and mentioned earlier would work just fine though).
And annother day to implement the code.

Thats when I do it without any knowledge of the current code.
I would bet all of current belongings that I could fix it to most people's liking in far below a week.
I have almost no knowledge about graphics-designing but implenting complex theoretical systems is something I really enjoy (:


What software have you written? Which projects have you worked on where you were able to divine the function of the code within 3 days?

Those of us who are actually programmers are looking at your post and wondering whether you have actually ever touched someone else's code in your life.

Then there's your claim that you can nut out all the issues inside the three day window while you're still reviewing code and determining which piece of spaghetti connects to which other piece.

Have you actually ever talked to another person in your life, outside of the "do you want fries with that?" upsell question?


Noticeably absent is any time allocated for testing and fixing the inevitable issues,as the chances of it working correctly first time given unfamiliarity with the code-base are so close to zero that I would bet all of Destrouth's current belongings...
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#204 - 2012-11-10 17:18:48 UTC
Frankster Ijonen wrote:

Noticeably absent is any time allocated for testing and fixing the inevitable issues,as the chances of it working correctly first time given unfamiliarity with the code-base are so close to zero that I would bet all of Destrouth's current belongings...

We'll test the new system together, live :P

I bet there will still be bugs and loopholes. I would bet all of Destroth's current belongings ^^
Legion Reaver
#205 - 2012-11-10 17:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Legion Reaver
CCP Tallest wrote:
Permanent war decs will be fixed in Retribution.
We have made it so that in a mutual war, the original aggressor has the option of retracting the war.
And by "we have made it so", I mean Punkturis has made it so.


If the original aggressors can now withdraw from a now mutual war then whats the point in declaring it mutual in the first place? How are defenders supposed to ransom their former aggressors now turned victims if they're allowed to leave any time they want?

If anything there should be a set fee = to a % of the losses of the defenders required by the aggressors to withdraw from the war. You could even use the figures from the war reports to figure the maths say 1-25% adjustable by the defender. There shouldn't be a limit to the maximum pool of losses totaled in the % since the aggressors can withdraw anytime and should do so once they realize they'll be unable to pay the fees if they continue to get kills.

EX: Attackers end up destroying 50 billion in assets the denfenders can set the fee for them to withdraw up to 25% if they purely want to recover isk from their losses or they can set the amount lower if there is some other goal that they wish to achieve and not necc the isk. Such as withdrawing from some region of space etc. If the defenders wanted to recover the full amount of their losses they can always declare a war on their attackers once they withdraw and make their demands.

That way there are still consequences to the aggressors for declaring the war and to make all things mutual defenders who would like to withdraw from a war should have to surrender and meet the demands of the aggressor. To prevent people from simply war deccing someone with no intent of ending a war then provide defenders with a way to withdraw themselves from the war as well. If a defender decided to choose this route it should secure their freedom from the wardec system for a single week to prevent alt corps/alliances of the aggressors from deccing them immediately after they just withdrew this should help with griefing.

The solution could be to have the defenders pay an isk ransom dependent on the number of members they had when the war started. Somewhere around 2.5 Million per member would be fair I think and have it scale so that a corp of 1k members wouldn't have to pay a ridiculous fee. The scale could range from a maximum of 1 billion for a smaller corp/alliance up to 10 billion for a larger corp/alliance That way the cost isn't so demanding that it simply cannot be paid.

EX: a corp that started with 100 members would have to pay 250 million isk to withdraw from the war which would go to the aggressors otherwise they can defend themselves and if things go well they can declare it mutual and recover up to 25% of their losses if they can make the aggressors withdraw. Other wise if the the war isn't declared mutual and the aggressors end up not continuing the war after a week then there is no isk paid either way.

If anything the War Declaration system should be viewed as an extension of the new bounty system allowing the aggressors the opportunity to collect isk from a corp/alliance that has had a high bounty placed on them by hunting them in high sec with the risk of consequences should they do poorly and become victims themselves. The above system should facilitate such a concept and work well in conjunction with the new bounty system that is being released.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-11-10 19:35:02 UTC
Sycho Pathic wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Any chance you guys could have the war dec fee only calculate based on characters currently training a skill?


Now that is a good idea.

If only the Icelandic Treasure would bless my post with a response on this subject. Oops Just trying to help point out other loop holes and exploits if they are going to be trying to fix the war dec mechanic.
Maraner
The Executioners
#207 - 2012-11-10 20:44:06 UTC
So once the wardec is withdrawn is the war ended immediately or is there a cool down / 1 week timer?

Likely this is already posted somewhere apologies if already asked/answered.
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#208 - 2012-11-10 21:09:28 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
as the person who implemented this fix I must admit I had no idea the goons were war decced or had any problems with it. The only person I've been talking to about war decs is Alekseyev Karrde

v0v

maybe I should spend less time working on the expansion and more time getting involved in corp/alliance politics in EVE P


Let me get this straight. You IMPLEMENTED a fix WITHOUT examining all the current problems with the system? And the only person you ever discussed it with is Alekseyev Karrde? No second opinion or anything, no research on your part? That's some quality effort on your part, that is. I know that Alekseyev Karrde is smart, well-informed, etc., but there's a reason the CSM is more than one person - to get several opinions before acting.
Reticle
Sight Picture
#209 - 2012-11-10 21:17:28 UTC
proving once again that the only way to get things fixed by CCP is to gash a gaping wound in game mechanics.

good job Zerg or Goons or whoever the ****
Jason Quixos
Mass of Wrecks
#210 - 2012-11-10 21:35:08 UTC
Rellik makes me lol. You do stay docked, and redock. You almost lost a muninn 2 days ago if I remember.

Space Cadet Online - A wee blog about my exploits Mass Of Wrecks - Public NPSI Events Fleet - launching 28th August

Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2012-11-10 21:40:51 UTC
Jason Quixos wrote:
Rellik makes me lol. You do stay docked, and redock. You almost lost a muninn 2 days ago if I remember.


I did lose it :(

and a pod :(

total loss of about 400m for a ship that had done well in excess of 2bn damage so I was like 'meh'! Big smile

I get killed like everyone else, only I kill 9 ships or pods before i go :)
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#212 - 2012-11-10 21:40:52 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
as the person who implemented this fix I must admit I had no idea the goons were war decced or had any problems with it. The only person I've been talking to about war decs is Alekseyev Karrde

v0v

maybe I should spend less time working on the expansion and more time getting involved in corp/alliance politics in EVE P


Let me get this straight. You IMPLEMENTED a fix WITHOUT examining all the current problems with the system? And the only person you ever discussed it with is Alekseyev Karrde? No second opinion or anything, no research on your part? That's some quality effort on your part, that is. I know that Alekseyev Karrde is smart, well-informed, etc., but there's a reason the CSM is more than one person - to get several opinions before acting.


lol you can read that out of it if you like but no that's not how it works.

if you want me to be clearer on what I said I'll say Alekseyev was the only person outside of CCP that I talked to on how to fix war decs (and he of course is the CSM's main war dec guy but I talk all of them sort of every day). I don't implement game design fixes without the game designers at CCP telling me what to do and they read the forums and talk to each other blablabla..

so now that's gotten straight.

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#213 - 2012-11-10 21:43:03 UTC
I think I'll just stop posting in this thread, too many people just like to be angry and take what I say and twist my words. The initial problem in this thread has been solved (for Retribution), some people like the solution and some people don't, that's how it is with all our changes anyways.

fly safe! o7

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2012-11-10 21:47:08 UTC
oooo

I was just about to praise you for your communication....when you stopped communicating.

I dont mind - you guys just work here, its just everytime something like this happens I get squeezed out of EvE until something else 'breaks''.

The problem is that for about the last 3 years CCPs idea of broken has been my idea of 'fixed'.


im an eve dinosaur with limited playtime - where do I go from here?
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
None ofthe Above
#215 - 2012-11-10 22:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Marian Devers wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
as the person who implemented this fix I must admit I had no idea the goons were war decced or had any problems with it. The only person I've been talking to about war decs is Alekseyev Karrde

v0v

maybe I should spend less time working on the expansion and more time getting involved in corp/alliance politics in EVE P


Let me get this straight. You IMPLEMENTED a fix WITHOUT examining all the current problems with the system? And the only person you ever discussed it with is Alekseyev Karrde? No second opinion or anything, no research on your part? That's some quality effort on your part, that is. I know that Alekseyev Karrde is smart, well-informed, etc., but there's a reason the CSM is more than one person - to get several opinions before acting.


lol you can read that out of it if you like but no that's not how it works.

if you want me to be clearer on what I said I'll say Alekseyev was the only person outside of CCP that I talked to on how to fix war decs (and he of course is the CSM's main war dec guy but I talk all of them sort of every day). I don't implement game design fixes without the game designers at CCP telling me what to do and they read the forums and talk to each other blablabla..

so now that's gotten straight.


Beat me to it. Clearly people are angry and misdirecting it at you Punkturis.

There is a larger discussion to be had about the design of the system. While I am sure Punkturis could contribute some valuable insight to that, that discussion needs to be had with Soniclover and perhaps Soundwave (nothing personal guys, just not happy with some of these designs you pushed out).

Forum warriors, please stop venting at the person implementing the fixes and save it (or preferably rational well constructed discussions) for the people designing the broken systems. Cause we don't want her to stop posting. Aside from missing her sparkling personality, this communication is invaluable to both parties.

I don't always white knight... but when I do, I white knight for CCP Punkturis. (I realize I seem to be white-knighting hard here, but really we do need to get to the heart of the matter and get this back on track. These attacks are deeply misplaced.)

PS - Also a side note: While I am very glad Aleks is involved, I am afraid that although he's really good at representing the pirate/merc's point of view, he's not very good at dealing with the others. He can sympathize with them just enough to represent what keeps them being good targets.

I hope you (all at CCP) don't restrict yourself to just Aleks.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#216 - 2012-11-10 23:19:48 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
I think I'll just stop posting in this thread, too many people just like to be angry and take what I say and twist my words. The initial problem in this thread has been solved (for Retribution), some people like the solution and some people don't, that's how it is with all our changes anyways.

fly safe! o7



Just ignore them. Haters gona hate :(
Reticle
Sight Picture
#217 - 2012-11-10 23:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Reticle
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
However, we will not be scammed or fooled into releasing people prematurely. You are free when the wardec mechanics are fixed and you can get free on your own, that's always been the goal. If I release you now they couldl half-ass the solution, and then we'll be back at this point in a few months.

Nothing is fixed, until it is fixed. And then we will celebrate together, and non-trivial wardecs can commence once again.

Are you suggesting that Punkturis is lying to you for the purpose of getting you to drop war decs?

You proved your point. You got the fix. Done deal. Drop the decs.

Or you can admit that you were just getting in on some high quality griefing. Lol Which is exactly what you were doing.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2012-11-10 23:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
Reticle wrote:

Or you can admit that you were just getting in on some high quality griefing. Lol Which is exactly what you were doing.


he wasnt, I was.

but as has been noted on many previous occasions everyone at war with Dec Shield STARTED A WAR.

These are no innocents.

he already said he was gonna drop them once this is implemented, you sound like you have a personal axe to grind tbh.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Reticle
Sight Picture
#219 - 2012-11-11 00:20:35 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
Reticle wrote:

Or you can admit that you were just getting in on some high quality griefing. Lol Which is exactly what you were doing.


he wasnt, I was.

but as has been noted on many previous occasions everyone at war with Dec Shield STARTED A WAR.

These are no innocents.

he already said he was gonna drop them once this is implemented, you sound like you have a personal axe to grind tbh.

weak. just weak. very very very weak.

tbh? I'm smart enough not to get caught up in bullshit like this. He's stated his goal as getting a fix. The fix has been announced. End of discussion.

Or did you mean to post as Zerg. I know it can be hard to keep your story straight with so many alts.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#220 - 2012-11-11 00:28:56 UTC
Reticle wrote:

tbh? I'm smart enough not to get caught up in bullshit like this.


plainly....

Reticle wrote:

He's stated his goal as getting a fix. The fix has been announced. End of discussion.


see, here is your problem:

goal: getting a fix
outcome: fix announced BUT NOT IMPLEMENTED.

I said that really loud just in case you are reading impaired.

ergo its not the end of the discussion but im sure you would be bang to rights calling him once the fix is actually implemented, if it ever is.

Reticle wrote:

Or did you mean to post as Zerg. I know it can be hard to keep your story straight with so many alts.


poor Zerg, until about a week ago he never heard of me. Ive been playing since 2005 and what i mostly like doing in 2012 is logging in and shooting people in empire: its quick, its easy and I dont need one of the 'M's in 'MMO'.

you should check these things before you make yourself look like a tool...

..oh wait.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)