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[Proposal] Fix Wardec Exploits

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#181 - 2012-11-09 23:38:02 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Pay my trip to Island, give me from 1 to 3 days to get to get to know the current game-system and where to change what and which language is used. After that annother day to talk to everybody about all the balancing-concerns to get it right for everybody (I think the system i thought of and mentioned earlier would work just fine though).
And annother day to implement the code.

Thats when I do it without any knowledge of the current code.
I would bet all of current belongings that I could fix it to most people's liking in far below a week.
I have almost no knowledge about graphics-designing but implenting complex theoretical systems is something I really enjoy (:


What software have you written? Which projects have you worked on where you were able to divine the function of the code within 3 days?

Those of us who are actually programmers are looking at your post and wondering whether you have actually ever touched someone else's code in your life.

Then there's your claim that you can nut out all the issues inside the three day window while you're still reviewing code and determining which piece of spaghetti connects to which other piece.

Have you actually ever talked to another person in your life, outside of the "do you want fries with that?" upsell question?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Gutpela Taim
Doomheim
#182 - 2012-11-10 00:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gutpela Taim
It Saddens me that from 4th December my main/s will not be able to shoot goons as ccp have finally decided that goons in a mutual war is not allowed to happen....It's a shame that it took this to fix a very ****** up war dec system. And as for goons complaining that it makes it a pain atm for their sov changes..well i'm afraid i lmao at this http://themittani.com/news/wardecs-complicate-ev0ke-sov-handover .HAVING to shoot their own stations to transfer them. bet that really hacked them off.
im mrmessy
Woolloomooloo Sheep Dip
#183 - 2012-11-10 02:21:04 UTC
Gutpela Taim wrote:
It Saddens me that from 4th December my main/s will not be able to shoot goons as ccp have finally decided that goons in a mutual war is not allowed to happen....It's a shame that it took this to fix a very ****** up war dec system. And as for goons complaining that it makes it a pain atm for their sov changes..well i'm afraid i lmao at this http://themittani.com/news/wardecs-complicate-ev0ke-sov-handover .HAVING to shoot their own stations to transfer them. bet that really hacked them off.


Are you so risk-averse that you can't come to nullsec?
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#184 - 2012-11-10 02:45:57 UTC
Thanks for the publicity, Zerg. Sure you helped get this raised up the priorities.

CCP Punkturis best Punkturis <3

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
None ofthe Above
#185 - 2012-11-10 02:48:52 UTC
Musiaba Schenoly wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Since you can't spell "Iceland," I'll take that bet.



first ccp state in this threat

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I wish I was as smart as you Sad

????????????????
I cant get it, really wtf

7 weeks after posting an exploit here came csm and dev finally - to barrack a player who is more committed than other in that game?

What is that here - election campaign and local smack during drink time???

Here he posted his suggustions you "DEV" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2149824#post2149824
I like em more than your analysis anywhere...oh wait which?


First, Aleks is CSM, a player representative to CCP, and that wasn't the first CSM response.

Secondly, Punkturis' trolls are considered an Icelandic national treasure.

While it might seem a bit rude and/or shocking, its only recently that we've had the devs been able to post as much as they've had, and that is a good thing.

I swear once you get used to it, you'll feel honored when Punkturis trolls you.

Added to that: she does get things done. She'll laugh at you one minute and fulfill your wildest (coding) dreams the next.

So can understand why someone might be upset about her comment, take it in stride. Part of the uncommon culture EVE has (and there are far worse things you can get properly upset about).

Anyway, thanks Punkturis!

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#186 - 2012-11-10 02:50:14 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Permanent war decs will be fixed in Retribution.
We have made it so that in a mutual war, the original aggressor has the option of retracting the war.
And by "we have made it so", I mean Punkturis has made it so.
Mutual wardecs are now pointless in every valid cases but RvB.
Are you lazy or what ? This is not a proper fix, it's "remove this feature because we can't repair it".
Seriously ?
CCP Punkturis is a UI designer, she probably added a button "Retract that so-called mutual war". But where is the damn game designer ?
I'm happy to see the end of a wardec exploit (mind you, a lot of them are still possible) and a reaction of CCP after MONTHS of inaction, but you're doing it just wrong.

CCP Punkturis wrote:
it doesn't really matter if things are implemented at the beginning of a release or closer to release date since it's going to be released at the same day either way.
Yes, because we never saw a ninja patch (anyone remembering the boomerang-suicide-tornado nerf ? It was 3 days (not 3 months) after the publication of the exploit and don't even tell me that adding a damn button is more complicated than dealing with the Concord code).




I'm disappointed.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
None ofthe Above
#187 - 2012-11-10 02:53:13 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

It's definitely about picking your battles. When CCP went quiet on war dec improvements for weeks, CSM got concerned. I took action. When i say "confront" CCP Soniclover i mean that, i was ready to create a thread calling out War Decs as an abandoned feature. Fortunately we DID have a meeting and coming out of that i feel that such a step is no longer necessary.

Wars will never be everyone's ideas of perfect but SuperFriends plans to address a nice sized list of issues which is showing me real progress and commitment to making the system work. It's not as simple as "just fix it in a few hours" like a couple above posters seem to think it is. We're not dealing with spell checking lol, this is a complicated game mechanic which is currently and has always historically been prone to exploiting, and it has to not only be well thought out but also be properly balanced between the interests of defenders and attackers.

CCP not taking the time to think things through, on wars and other things, has caused enough problems. The reason they hot fixed FW ahead of schedule was not planning out how LP distribtion worked was causing violent economic distortion that was literally forcing people to unsubscribe due to high PLEX costs. Trust me, Noir. is "trapped" by Dec Shield; it's not really that serious. I'd rather encourage CCP to take the time and get it right.


Well have to admit I am a bit impressed. It's good to see some gumption.

I agree about CCP not working all the way through, although they get plenty of feedback. I have a theory about this being development by strawman, releasing deliberately broken things and slowly trying to come to some working system through feedback.

Anyway thanks for getting in there. And keep it up (although I don't always agree with your viewpoint). This is clearly just a stop gap to fix the worst of it. Needs more work.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
None ofthe Above
#188 - 2012-11-10 02:57:07 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Permanent war decs will be fixed in Retribution.
We have made it so that in a mutual war, the original aggressor has the option of retracting the war.
And by "we have made it so", I mean Punkturis has made it so.
Mutual wardecs are now pointless in every valid cases but RvB.
Are you lazy or what ? This is not a proper fix, it's "remove this feature because we can't repair it".
Seriously ?
CCP Punkturis is a UI designer, she probably added a button "Retract that so-called mutual war". But where is the damn game designer ?
I'm happy to see the end of a wardec exploit (mind you, a lot of them are still possible) and a reaction of CCP after MONTHS of inaction, but you're doing it just wrong.

CCP Punkturis wrote:
it doesn't really matter if things are implemented at the beginning of a release or closer to release date since it's going to be released at the same day either way.
Yes, because we never saw a ninja patch (anyone remembering the boomerang-suicide-tornado nerf ? It was 3 days (not 3 months) after the publication of the exploit and don't even tell me that adding a damn button is more complicated than dealing with the Concord code).




I'm disappointed.


Personally I think the whole War Dec system could use a rethink from the ground up, and that's not going to happen as a quick fix.

On one level you are right, but I don't think its realistic for them to really redesign the system as an add-on to a nearly baked expansion.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Malchristus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2012-11-10 02:58:51 UTC
im mrmessy wrote:
Gutpela Taim wrote:
It Saddens me that from 4th December my main/s will not be able to shoot goons as ccp have finally decided that goons in a mutual war is not allowed to happen....It's a shame that it took this to fix a very ****** up war dec system. And as for goons complaining that it makes it a pain atm for their sov changes..well i'm afraid i lmao at this http://themittani.com/news/wardecs-complicate-ev0ke-sov-handover .HAVING to shoot their own stations to transfer them. bet that really hacked them off.


Are you so risk-averse that you can't come to nullsec?


OMG! ............ your toon ............. Talk to me Goose!
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#190 - 2012-11-10 03:03:12 UTC
not that I would care about war dec sys but LOL

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#191 - 2012-11-10 03:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Reppyk
None ofthe Above wrote:
On one level you are right, but I don't think its realistic for them to really redesign the system as an add-on to a nearly baked expansion.
But wasn't the "last expansion" all about wardecs ? They planned it for months, they worked on it for months, they had 4 months after the release to fix it a bit, and... Nothing.
Most of the exploits were found very shortly after Inferno (but nobody had the idea to use them at ZO's scale). And the "mutual wardecs are trapping the agressors meeeeeeh" tears has been around for the last two years (maybe more, I wasn't playing before that).

How can they miss that badly the main goal of an expansion ?

Dominion : about SOV mechanism (wait, it's as worst as it was, shooting SBUs instead of POSes).
Incarna : about Walking in Station (it didn't happen).
Inferno : about wardecs (which are so exploitable that nobody but a throwable alt would start a wardec).

What's in Retribution ? Bounties claimable by my own alts and a rupture with 14 turret slots and enough PWG to fit a 9000mm plate ?

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Malchristus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2012-11-10 03:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Malchristus
The real question now is, is Zerg (having proven his point and gotten the Devs to post a "fix" in writing that he will have a chance to work out the exploits on) now going to release the current PermaDecs?

That gesture only will prove either it was a genuine attempt to help players by generating the fuss and hubbub needed or if it was just a clown looking to grief and soak up tears.

My money is seriously on the latter.
Zakn Tawate
Perkone
Caldari State
#193 - 2012-11-10 07:24:10 UTC
What if Dec Shield was a CFC OP?
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#194 - 2012-11-10 10:11:39 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Permanent war decs will be fixed in Retribution.
We have made it so that in a mutual war, the original aggressor has the option of retracting the war.
And by "we have made it so", I mean Punkturis has made it so.
Mutual wardecs are now pointless in every valid cases but RvB.
Are you lazy or what ? This is not a proper fix, it's "remove this feature because we can't repair it".
Seriously ?
CCP Punkturis is a UI designer, she probably added a button "Retract that so-called mutual war". But where is the damn game designer ?
I'm happy to see the end of a wardec exploit (mind you, a lot of them are still possible) and a reaction of CCP after MONTHS of inaction, but you're doing it just wrong.

CCP Punkturis wrote:
it doesn't really matter if things are implemented at the beginning of a release or closer to release date since it's going to be released at the same day either way.
Yes, because we never saw a ninja patch (anyone remembering the boomerang-suicide-tornado nerf ? It was 3 days (not 3 months) after the publication of the exploit and don't even tell me that adding a damn button is more complicated than dealing with the Concord code).




I'm disappointed.


I'm a programmer, not a designer..

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2012-11-10 11:41:02 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Any chance you guys could have the war dec fee only calculate based on characters currently training a skill?


Now that is a good idea.
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#196 - 2012-11-10 11:48:31 UTC
Malchristus wrote:
The real question now is, is Zerg (having proven his point and gotten the Devs to post a "fix" in writing that he will have a chance to work out the exploits on) now going to release the current PermaDecs?

That gesture only will prove either it was a genuine attempt to help players by generating the fuss and hubbub needed or if it was just a clown looking to grief and soak up tears.

My money is seriously on the latter.

Of course we enjoy the tears and anguish of our enemies, but we also very strongly desire a functioning wardec system. I have written pages of analysis, highlighted all the flaws, made suggestions of feasible solutions, waged a massive awareness campaign, gone to Vegas to talk to devs in person, and explained everything to anyone who's asked. You cannot claim we have not worked to improve the wardec system. We have enjoyed the ride, and we'll enjoy the solution.

However, we will not be scammed or fooled into releasing people prematurely. You are free when the wardec mechanics are fixed and you can get free on your own, that's always been the goal. If I release you now they couldl half-ass the solution, and then we'll be back at this point in a few months.

Nothing is fixed, until it is fixed. And then we will celebrate together, and non-trivial wardecs can commence once again.

Burn Highsec Griefers
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2012-11-10 12:30:54 UTC
Thread has been cleaned of some troll and rumour posts.

Forum Rules wrote:


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Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.


30. Rumor threads and posts

Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. Players who engage in these type of threads can expect to receive a warning and ban.




Please stay on topic, thank you - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#198 - 2012-11-10 12:42:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
CCP Tallest wrote:
Permanent war decs will be fixed in Retribution.
We have made it so that in a mutual war, the original aggressor has the option of retracting the war.
And by "we have made it so", I mean Punkturis has made it so.


First, I want to say a big thank you to CCP, Punkturis especially, for listening to the players and helping to fix this. This is another great example of CCP listening to its players. Something that most games companies fail to accomplish quite regularly.

Now, however, comes constructive criticism. I can't help but feel that the aggressors just being able to retract the war makes it a win win situation for them. It gets rid of all of the risk. If they don't like the way the war is going, they can just retract it. There should, at the very least, be a very long time for them to retract once the war has become mutual. For example, a one month timer. If they're going around greifing people (which is their choice and I wholly support it), they should at the very least have consequences.

As it stands, if they find out they're not doing as well as they hoped they will be able to pull out with a days notice without giving the defender any time to fight back, even when the war has been declared mutual. I'm not just some whiner who wants the defenders to have as many perks as possible, in fact, I plan to be the aggressor quite regularly once Retribution comes out, but at the least it should take the aggressor 1 week to pull out of a mutual war. At least.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Hrothgar Nilsson
#199 - 2012-11-10 14:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Travis117 wrote:
They are NOW getting fixed because goons are in a permanent war. Seems ccp responds everytime the goons have a problem -.-it takes them now to actually do say something


as the person who implemented this fix I must admit I had no idea the goons were war decced or had any problems with it. The only person I've been talking to about war decs is Alekseyev Karrde

v0v

maybe I should spend less time working on the expansion and more time getting involved in corp/alliance politics in EVE P

Eh, should have put it off until the expansion was released if it's not to be done soon anyways. A revamp to the war dec system is entirely consistent with the theme of the expansion (Retribution 1.1?), but the first public word from a dev a mere 45 minutes after an article was thrown up that mittani guy's website complaining about it, the timing of it looked quite bad.

That being said, I'd hope the devs would consider a change to the multiplier for each additional ally in war decs. 2x is quite high, 1.5x would be more reasonable. At 2x, the 10th ally would pay 102bil for a war dec that started out at 100mil, whereas at 1.5x it would be about 6bil for the 10th ally.

If I could get a single cent ($0.01) on the first square of a chessboard, and 2x for every square thereafter, I'd have 11.5 quadrillion dollars. 1.5x, more reasonable.

And maybe throw in some other sort of calculation besides just the size of the alliance/corp to be decced, maybe some sort of point between the size of the pilot roster the deccer and the deccee and those that follow as well.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2012-11-10 14:14:03 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Travis117 wrote:
They are NOW getting fixed because goons are in a permanent war. Seems ccp responds everytime the goons have a problem -.-it takes them now to actually do say something


as the person who implemented this fix I must admit I had no idea the goons were war decced or had any problems with it. The only person I've been talking to about war decs is Alekseyev Karrde

v0v

maybe I should spend less time working on the expansion and more time getting involved in corp/alliance politics in EVE P
for a 500 isk deposit i can sponsor you into goonswarm

do not under any circumstances accept any recruitment from the HBC it is scam. i am legit ok

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