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Capsuleers and Their "Crews"

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Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-10-20 01:21:11 UTC
Bluddwolf wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:

No Empire would willingly educate, train, spend millions producing, and then simply give away that many powerful individuals.


You better believe the Amarr Empire or the Caldari State wouldn't be spending billions on r&d and military education of the most deadly technology in the known universe only to say 'here you go! go have fun!' after graduation.

When modern military spends millions training say, fighter pilots or special ops troops, they don't give you the damn plane and say 'go have fun' after you finish flight school.


First, they send us on our way in frigates.

Secondly, most of us remain in a starter corp for a few weeks and that tax rate certainly recovers the cost of the frigate and much of the training.

Finally, don't think for a moment the "Empires" aren't getting their cut from the economy of war, death and resource exploitation that we generate every time we undock.



Bluddwolf is dead on right here. Every capsuleer that works *on contract* for an interstellar corporation brings those corps revenue and therefore tax. Remember that the tax is in ISK. These are VAST sums of money they get back in return everytime they train a capsuleer. You have to think, even 50% of capsuleers go rogue sometime after training, the recovered funding from corporations alone more than covers the risk. Plus, excise taxes come out of everything you buy or sell on the market. It is to government advantage to make as many capsuleers as they deem is safe. And for the 50% that stay loyal (my character is), think about the power you wield in intimidation alone.
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2012-10-20 01:22:59 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
The entirety of the EVE playerbase represent only one 'sort' of capsuleer, and I'd posit a small (but increasing) percentage.

No Empire would willingly educate, train, spend millions producing, and then simply give away that many powerful individuals.

I imagine as stipulation for signing the Yulai accords and setting up of CONCORD, the four empires agreed to let a certain percentage of their capsuleers have the option to 'go free' and that those are the sorts the we as players control.

You better believe the Amarr Empire or the Caldari State wouldn't be spending billions on r&d and military education of the most deadly technology in the known universe only to say 'here you go! go have fun!' after graduation.

When modern military spends millions training say, fighter pilots or special ops troops, they don't give you the damn plane and say 'go have fun' after you finish flight school.

Indeed, indeed. But how about if they saw if as were training up an assortment of individuals. Many would stay in the corps of they navy. Some would venture out into the CONCORD/agents/prizes system. Those who do would be self-funded (via agent rewards and insurance) and entrepreneurial. And for some amount of time, they'd work down pirate ships within the state's fringes (for their own gain). Which is a capitalistic way of protecting mining and commerce. And then, at some point those capsuleers move on to whatever self-funded enterprises they want to explore. So the next round of rookies flow through the academy, and some stay in and work through the ranks, and some venture out to blow stuff up on their own. Under the agents' and CONCORD's tight but (wide-open) penalty and reward system.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2012-10-20 01:26:35 UTC
Moondancer Starweaver wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Yes a capsuleer could bankroll an entire planetary invasion with his capital ship replacement slush fund, that is why the mortals fear us so! They know at any given moment or change in mood we can go from an essential element in their interplanetary commerce to their worst nightmare. So their pitiful pleas for better ecological and safety standards at our corp owned mining interests on their worlds get only so aggressive, not smart to **** off someone who can bombard you from orbit, embargo your jump gate, and transport in an army of immortal killers to hunt you down in your home.

Soon not even the Empires will be able to stand against determined capsuleers, the age of Mortal Racial & Political Empires are coming to end, hoist the corp banner of an Immortal Capsuleer Corp then fall to your kness and pray I am in a mood to allow your planet to continue it's existence.

It is in that era I write my first EVE short story "Empires Dusk, Capsuleers Dawn".

Power To The Players!


New and just getting into the lore of eve and possibly into writing fiction i do have a question about this. Capsuleers are only "immortal" if we are in our pod and nothing goes wrong at the cloning facility. Basically we can be killed at any time we are not in a pod. All of our money and power etc we still rely on other people to do certain stuff for us like maintain clones, pod integrity etc. i am thinking about writing a story and want to get some facts straight.



It's only a matter of time before Sleeper tech allows elites to keep a flash copy of their consciousness backed up on wetware, if it isn't available already. This is nearly about to happen IRL. There is a project in the US called "Green Brain" that is only a year away from copying a flash of a bee's brain into an immortal robot drone.

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#184 - 2012-10-20 01:37:36 UTC
Moondancer Starweaver wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Yes a capsuleer could bankroll an entire planetary invasion with his capital ship replacement slush fund, that is why the mortals fear us so! They know at any given moment or change in mood we can go from an essential element in their interplanetary commerce to their worst nightmare. So their pitiful pleas for better ecological and safety standards at our corp owned mining interests on their worlds get only so aggressive, not smart to **** off someone who can bombard you from orbit, embargo your jump gate, and transport in an army of immortal killers to hunt you down in your home.

Soon not even the Empires will be able to stand against determined capsuleers, the age of Mortal Racial & Political Empires are coming to end, hoist the corp banner of an Immortal Capsuleer Corp then fall to your kness and pray I am in a mood to allow your planet to continue it's existence.

It is in that era I write my first EVE short story "Empires Dusk, Capsuleers Dawn".

Power To The Players!


New and just getting into the lore of eve and possibly into writing fiction i do have a question about this. Capsuleers are only "immortal" if we are in our pod and nothing goes wrong at the cloning facility. Basically we can be killed at any time we are not in a pod. All of our money and power etc we still rely on other people to do certain stuff for us like maintain clones, pod integrity etc. i am thinking about writing a story and want to get some facts straight.



Correct

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#185 - 2012-10-20 01:40:20 UTC
Yes but plenty of the Empires aren't interested in finance as a bottom line.

No sane military or dictatorship would willingly train immortal demigods and let the majority of them run amok.

I can't think of any examples in our world where the State trains and funds expensive hardware and then just lets the users take the equipment.

Naval captains don't get to take their battleships with them when their tour is over

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#186 - 2012-10-20 04:00:09 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Yes but plenty of the Empires aren't interested in finance as a bottom line.

No sane military or dictatorship would willingly train immortal demigods and let the majority of them run amok.

I can't think of any examples in our world where the State trains and funds expensive hardware and then just lets the users take the equipment.

Naval captains don't get to take their battleships with them when their tour is over


This is EVE, not the real world. Most of the heads of the Empires, and various corporations are former capsuleers themselves, and thus immortal. In EVE, finance is the bottom line, followed very closely by power.

"It is all about the ISK" is a common belief system in New Eden.... It is pratically a religion.

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#187 - 2012-10-20 13:52:59 UTC
Many of the inner sphere factions are and have been aligning against the capsuleer class... They are beginning to "rue the day"..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#188 - 2012-10-22 17:22:07 UTC
With all due respect to established lore, I'm not a pod.

It seems...odd...to me that I'd sit "in" a pod, never interacting with my crew, the entire time I'm in space. For me, space is vast and wonderous, begging to be explored (or exploited.) Why would I sit in a windowless pod, completely disconnected from any sense of tangible reality, unconcerned with the comings and goings aboard my ship? New Eden must be experienced via monitors and consoles? Who would even design such a system? I can't even look out a window?

Besides, if I am always in a pod and my crew are mosquitoes, then why do I even need a crew at all? It seems superfluous. Why can't the entire ship just be a huge bionic extension of my pod? The pod is the brain. Plug and go. Seems just as plausible. It sounds as if it's already been dictated that crew and nanites share similar duties.

I think fan fiction should be allowed a bit more freedom here. Even if the first, well-written, widely-read stories state immortals are pod-dwelling, narcissistic, and locked away in some foggy central ship vault, surely subsequent tales can wax poetic on this vision. As an author, that's sure not where I'd choose to be.

I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of how locked down we are, at this stage, in crafting our own fiction.

YK

Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#189 - 2012-10-22 17:59:11 UTC
You could base your fiction out of a non-capsuleer vessel where a full crew is required. There are plenty of non-capsuleer ships roaming through new-eden that could make for a great central focus in fan-fiction. You don't have to limit yourself to writing from the perspective of a capsuleer.

wumbo
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#190 - 2012-10-23 16:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Che Biko
Yonis Kador wrote:
It seems...odd...to me that I'd sit "in" a pod, never interacting with my crew [..] Why would I sit in a windowless pod, completely disconnected from any sense of tangible reality, unconcerned with the comings and goings aboard my ship? New Eden must be experienced via monitors and consoles? Who would even design such a system? I can't even look out a window?

Besides, if I am always in a pod and my crew are mosquitoes, then why do I even need a crew at all? It seems superfluous. Why can't the entire ship just be a huge bionic extension of my pod?

First, you can interact with your crew, or even others outside the ship with video feeds and audio, although both audio and video would be "synthasized". You just can't shake hands with your crew while you're in your pod.

Second, there's no consoles and monitors in the pod. And even if there were windows in a capsule, you would not be able to use them.
But a lot of what your client sends to your monitor and speakers is basicly what is send to the mind's eyes, ears, and touch of your character. In a way, you are more connected to your ship and the enviroment than you would be if you sat in a chair on the bridge. You can feel the rockets hitting your hull. Your eyes can see far better through the camera drones than they would if you just looked out the window. Your ship becomes your body, or it feels that way, anyway.
Wether you care about the comings and goings aboard your ship is entirely up to the individual capsuleer.
And why would anyone design such a system? Because of the advantages of course. A capsuleer knows that his ship is damaged, and how severely, before an engineer can even open her mouth to report the damage. And at the same time he is able to process lots of other information and give several orders simultaniously. And if he dies? Well, he doesn't. Just that last bit is enough for a lot of people to get over any discomfort the capsuleer feels.

Crew is still needed aboard a capsuleer ship, just as a human body still needs bacteria to survive. The limits of technology and legislation prevent ships flying around without crew.
And of course the fiction could have been that we don't need crew, and perhaps the fiction will evolve towards that point some time. But the answer to "Why?" is simply "Because that's what the CCP fiction writers say."

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#191 - 2012-10-23 19:10:46 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Yes but plenty of the Empires aren't interested in finance as a bottom line.

No sane military or dictatorship would willingly train immortal demigods and let the majority of them run amok.

I can't think of any examples in our world where the State trains and funds expensive hardware and then just lets the users take the equipment.

Naval captains don't get to take their battleships with them when their tour is over



Yes, but, this assumes the system in place is what you believe it to be. Clearly, the 514 chronicle shows that things are not what they first appear to be. Current day China is made out in the USA to be the "enemy", our ideological adversary.. But, that is clearly and certainly not true. World economics is more complicated than good cop, bad cop. And at the same time appear purely that simple. Money really is the bottom line everywhere. Believe it or not. Control methods often require a psychological impetus to validate and retain outdated paradigms. As long as the sheep fears the wolf, the shepherd doesn't need fences.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#192 - 2012-10-26 15:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Capsuleers are the monetary base of the fiat currency known as ISK. The more capsuleers, the larger the economic base that CONCORD controls through the unwitting participation of it's slave labor force. Namely, us... Welcome to the New World Order.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
eddie valvetino
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#193 - 2012-10-27 11:57:53 UTC
i don't mean to be an arse

But I think you'll find if you read enough crap that Pod controlled ships are crewless
Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#194 - 2012-10-27 12:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bluddwolf
eddie valvetino wrote:
i don't mean to be an arse

But I think you'll find if you read enough crap that Pod controlled ships are crewless


This is not accurate. CCP has in its archives (EVEopedia) a chart that shows the crew make up of ships based on capsuleer and non capsuleer versions.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
Shou Kaukonen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-11-09 04:32:49 UTC
As far as the bizarrely unregulated military hardware in new eden, you should remember that yes, the free market is more powerful and unregulated here than in the 'real world' - but at the same time, there are a great many powerful and shiny toys that can only be accessed by doing work for a given faction. I'm talking, of course, about LP stores. To get that Caldari Navy Raven, you have to either kill many, many, MANY enemies of the State or shuffle around cargo for ages at a fraction of the cost and risk of paying a slew of non-capsuleers to do it. Either way, you've done them a very great service and made them reasonably confident that you won't just turn around and start slaughtering them with it. Additionally, this serves as a proof that, while you can get ships, ammo and modules based on designs generated by a given faction, said faction is keeping the shiniest toys for themselves and only making them available in limited amounts - thus maintaining the advantage. Yes, there is always the possibility that they will just be resold to the faction's enemies, but given how cutthroat and hypercapitalist most factions are in this universe, I'd imagine that this negative is offset by the economic stimulation provided by the capsuleer market - and, specifically, the potential consequences of chasing that market off by being too tight-fisted with the cool space toys.

And yes, there is more powerful stuff available in the form of tech 2 and 3 gear, but it's very important to note that said gear is not produced by the empires themselves. Tech 2 was developed by the most cutting-edge r&d corps in the galaxy (and the fact that the empires are not, themselves, the source of all the most cutting-edge toys is another testament to the power of capitalism in this universe), so it makes sense that they would attempt to profit by allowing their designs to be utilized on the open market.

Regarding the idea that capsuleers are just given 'free reign' after they are trained, I like to imagine that it's kind of like military service - in return for their training, capsuleers agree to undergo a term of service in which they capsule-pilot for the entity that trained them. From this perspective, the tutorial and career agents are a resource for capsuleers who have served their tour of duty to get on their feet now that they are no longer basically indentured to the corp who trained them. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any justification in-game for viewing it this way, but that's how I choose to think of it because it's the most plothole-free way I've come up with for giving people a motive for training capsuleers in the first place.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#196 - 2012-11-09 11:17:48 UTC
Ships have crews, even capsuleer ships. The capsule allows for the replacement of bridge and command crews and, to a lesser extent, allows for the reduction of some other "redundant" crew members.

As for why empires "train" capsuleers for free, remember two things:
1) Only one school for each empire is a military academy; the other two schools are typical universities that are large and prestigious enough to offer pod pilot programs. Someone, somewhere is paying for it and it's probably not the governments of the empires themselves.
2) Players are only a portion of the capsuleers in the backstory. At least some number of capsuleers do continue to work for the empires directly.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
#197 - 2012-11-09 12:30:32 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
2) Players are only a portion of the capsuleers in the backstory. At least some number of capsuleers do continue to work for the empires directly.

For example, the President of the Gallente Federation, Jacus Roden.
Altho, one might sometimes wonder what exactly he works for.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#198 - 2012-11-09 13:32:02 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
2) Players are only a portion of the capsuleers in the backstory. At least some number of capsuleers do continue to work for the empires directly.


I'm from the State War Academy, and i turned my back on them from day one. Yet, they keep paying for my basic clones and (i suppose) they keep paying my crew's sallary.

I don't get this.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#199 - 2012-11-09 13:34:50 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
2) Players are only a portion of the capsuleers in the backstory. At least some number of capsuleers do continue to work for the empires directly.


I'm from the State War Academy, and i turned my back on them from day one. Yet, they keep paying for my basic clones and (i suppose) they keep paying my crew's sallary.

I don't get this.


The basic clone is provided by CONCORD.

Crew salary is provided by - OH MY GOD WHAT'S THAT BEHIND YOU?!

*runs away*

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Shandir
EVE University
Ivy League
#200 - 2012-11-09 17:04:46 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
2) Players are only a portion of the capsuleers in the backstory. At least some number of capsuleers do continue to work for the empires directly.


I'm from the State War Academy, and i turned my back on them from day one. Yet, they keep paying for my basic clones and (i suppose) they keep paying my crew's sallary.

I don't get this.


The basic clone is provided by CONCORD.

Crew salary is provided by - OH MY GOD WHAT'S THAT BEHIND YOU?!

*runs away*


Crew salary is included in base ship costs?