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A "Ganker's" View on Mining "Buffs"
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Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2012-09-25 15:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rats
Darth Gustav wrote:
Tiger Would wrote:
Extremely dangerous and evil way of reasoning......but a very interesting read....

Nice post......although it does belong in fiction....

Which part is fiction?



The lot, and hunting miners for sh*ts and giggles rather than an in game reason , i.e war, piracy etc , is called griefing and should be counted as such.

Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-09-25 16:23:27 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You know I'd think CCP would want miners being ganked as it makes the mining bot problem less significant, it helps to keep the profession's income up, it helps the economy, and it provides amusement to people who patiently must wait a year or two for CCP to fix the part of the game they live in. I'm to lazy to look up the quote for moronic npc alts but I remember somewhere a CCP guy saying that it was currently too difficult to differentiate between an actual miner and a bot so I'll leave this screenshot here as an example of the state of this problem.

http://imgur.com/DbL17

For those that have trouble understanding, look at what is typed and look at what the search box suggests, I'm surprised it is so high in the suggestions.

Revert mining ship EHP buffs (except for the procuror and skiff).

"Eve ratting" had "Eve ratting bot" as the 2nd suggestion. Botting is not a problem isolated to mining and exhumer EHP being what it was didn't stop people from doing it before. Additionally given the evidence of the number of mining bots banned (mining bot forum comments, etc) it would suggest that their detection methods have improved or the comment was inaccurate.


You are correct, the point that differentiates them is that its much easier to catch ratting bots so they are a lesser problem than mining bots. This might mean that EVE pve needs a huge rework in general.

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Iskemi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2012-09-25 16:26:59 UTC
I don't understand something...
The goons (and that creepy faced baltec guy) keep saying ganking miners was profitable. How was it profitable? did they drop loot?

Sorry for being ignorant...
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#104 - 2012-09-25 17:19:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
I like mining. I'd go as far as saying its my main playstyle at the moment.

The thought of logging in to play sickly deer for some coward pvp wannabes is terrible. You gankers are just incapable of seeing this from the other side. You would destroy the game just so you can shoot ships that can't fight back. Pathetic.


I like mining, and I liked mining even more when cowards like you weren't mining. Suicide ganking of mining barges is probably the lowest form of PvP activity in the game, but mining is the lowest form of PvE activity in the game so they're a perfect match.

If you wouldn't even do a little bit of research to understand what gankers are doing and what their limits were, you don't belong in space flying a mining barge or exhumer. The simple facts of the matter were that a single catalyst would top out at about 10k damage. They made their profit from salvage and the very expensive T2 mining and ice harvesting equipment that many people were using to maximise their yield. All you needed to do was fit some tank at the expense of yield. Even 12k EHP would have been enough since most gankers were solo operators.

In addition, you can watch the belts, see who the gankers are, set their standings low so you see the orange or red indicator on their name in local, and make sure you keep your eyes open for their presence. But apparently even this tiny amount of effort was too much for some people: you bad miners were so fixated on maximum yield that you wouldn't take simple precautions because fitting a tank would cost you too much yield. Paying attention to the game every now and then would cost you more time and reduce your semi-AFK mining ISK/keyboard-hour ratio. So instead you unsubscribed and stated that your reason for unsubscribing was suicide ganking.

CCP destroyed my game to win back your subscription. The result is a situation much worse than suicide ganking ever was.


I've been here since 2008, and have never left. I tank my mining vessels and even watch scan. I've been ganked once ever. I just don't care for the mindset of players who like to torment miners for laughs is all. Ganking is a part of the game I do accept, and plan for....heck I even have a backup mining ship all fit and ready to go. Where did you get the idea I unsubscribed from?

I usually post in "ganking is good gameplay" threads disagreeing with that notion as a general course. It's gameplay that promotes bullying, and gives an excuse to harass players. I just don't agree that such a thing represents good gameplay. It's that simple.

First time I was eve successfully ganked was actually after the mining vessel buffs...I was experimenting with a 26k ehp Mac in a 0.5 system...pair of blaster catalysts took it out. I have a Mac now that's 30K ehp as a result of the experience.
Amber Coldheart
Doomheim
#105 - 2012-09-25 17:34:43 UTC
Iskemi wrote:
I don't understand something...
The goons (and that creepy faced baltec guy) keep saying ganking miners was profitable. How was it profitable? did they drop loot?

Sorry for being ignorant...

Not ignorant, so no worries :)

I've never suicide ganked anyone myself, but basically, a ship has a chance of dropping any of the modules its fitted with, as well as anything it might have in its cargo.

Your average suicide gank is done so that the ganking ships do their job, then they have a hauling alt that picks up all the stuff thats left in the wrecks.

This loot (strip miners cost a pretty penny), combined with insurance for the lost gank ships would usually make it fairly profitable to gank miners.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-09-25 19:26:43 UTC
Amber Coldheart wrote:
This loot (strip miners cost a pretty penny), combined with insurance for the lost gank ships would usually make it fairly profitable to gank miners.

Insurance for ships destroyed by concord was removed a while before the recent mining buff. Though I believe potential salvage drops from tech 2 ships, including barges, were buffed before that.
Amber Coldheart
Doomheim
#107 - 2012-09-25 19:29:41 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Insurance for ships destroyed by concord was removed a while before the recent mining buff. Though I believe potential salvage drops from tech 2 ships, including barges, were buffed before that.

ahh, i wasnt aware of that :) (only recently come back after 2 or so years absense).
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-09-25 20:02:38 UTC
Iskemi wrote:
I don't understand something...
The goons (and that creepy faced baltec guy) keep saying ganking miners was profitable. How was it profitable? did they drop loot?

Sorry for being ignorant...


Basically it was only profitable if the miner was untanked (stupid). The profit from the gank was from the stripminers and T2 salvage that dropped. Cost could be controlled by looting/salvaging your own ships as well. With the EHP buffs its pointless now as its no longer profitable to gank stupid miners anymore. The smart miners that tanked their ship were never in any danger in the first place as they were already unprofitable.

I guess the next step is to get DBRB to have a rookie ship gank op in highsec.

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Trin Xi
#109 - 2012-09-25 20:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Trin Xi
You're implying that killing miners improves the quality of supply of miners to gank. Ha.

Some reworking of the Bastiat's Glazier's Fallacy might have been more entertaining: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Post with someone else's main™.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#110 - 2012-09-25 20:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Trin Xi wrote:
You're implying that killing miners improves the quality of supply of miners to gank. Ha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

No. I'm not sure you read the OP, but I'm implying that killing miners provides me with less miners to gank, and therefore with less miners sharing a similar burden of demand for their minerals, the less miners will be wealthier than they would have been if gankers hadn't killed off their competitors.

Big difference.

Just to be absolutely clear, this is not a case such as the broken window parable.

I know all too well that there are costs. Most of them incurred by me.

No insurance for gankers, remember?

Edit: Dr. EyjoG (sp?) also seems to think that conflict (ie, ship destruction) is good for the economy. You can forum search for his posts.

It's a pretty consistent theme of his.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Trin Xi
#111 - 2012-09-25 20:41:20 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Trin Xi wrote:
You're implying that killing miners improves the quality of supply of miners to gank. Ha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

No. I'm not sure you read the OP, but I'm implying that killing miners provides me with less miners to gank, and therefore with less miners sharing a similar burden of demand for their minerals, the less miners will be wealthier than they would have been if gankers hadn't killed off their competitors.

Big difference.

My phrasing on that summation was a bit loose. Rather than say "improves the quality of supply" (suggesting an increase), I should have said "improves the quality of the remaining stock". Your deer population analogy, along with similar analogies (forest fires renew forests... etc.) doesn't quite work.

It was still a good post, though.

Post with someone else's main™.
Trin Xi
#112 - 2012-09-25 20:57:18 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
...[snip]
I know all too well that there are costs. Most of them incurred by me.

No insurance for gankers, remember?

Edit: Dr. EyjoG (sp?) also seems to think that conflict (ie, ship destruction) is good for the economy. You can forum search for his posts.

It's a pretty consistent theme of his.

Ship destruction is good for the Eve economy. But that doesn't mean that miner ganking is good for miners, as you assert. (Fruit is good for you, therefore you should eat 100 oranges every day.)

Whether miner ganking is good for the game is a different matter. Such an assertion probably is true, given certain levels of ganking.

Post with someone else's main™.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#113 - 2012-09-25 20:59:30 UTC
Trin Xi wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Trin Xi wrote:
You're implying that killing miners improves the quality of supply of miners to gank. Ha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

No. I'm not sure you read the OP, but I'm implying that killing miners provides me with less miners to gank, and therefore with less miners sharing a similar burden of demand for their minerals, the less miners will be wealthier than they would have been if gankers hadn't killed off their competitors.

Big difference.

My phrasing on that summation was a bit loose. Rather than say "improves the quality of supply" (suggesting an increase), I should have said "improves the quality of the remaining stock". Your deer population analogy, along with similar analogies (forest fires renew forests... etc.) doesn't quite work.

It was still a good post, though.

Thanks.

But I'm not sure current economic indicators in Eve Online support your position. It seems clear that, with more miners, their average wealth increase is lower. We can derive that from the falling prices of mats and the visibly increased population of high-sec mining vessels.

Can you provide me with some examples of where, exactly, my theory about the influence of negative pressure on mining falls apart? Because so far all I've seen from other posters are posts stating, "You're crying!" and, "You promote gameplay I don't support! Get out of the sandbox!" Which is obviously knee-jerking and not of any real content.

And to the poster who specifically said "ganking for lulz is grief play" or whatever, let me put my ganking into in-game terms for you:

My character is in a state of unofficial war against most NPC corporations and high-sec miners.

Reason enough. It's a game.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Hypercake Mix
#114 - 2012-09-25 21:09:11 UTC
Could try finding an industrialist willing to sponsor the ganking of the miners around him/her.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#115 - 2012-09-25 21:34:31 UTC
Hypercake Mix wrote:
Could try finding an industrialist willing to sponsor the ganking of the miners around him/her.

Thats even less likely than getting them to fit a tank

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Irate Fox
Aideron Technologies
#116 - 2012-09-25 21:37:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vanria Vexed wrote:
You can still gank mining vessels, it just requires the ganker to invest more money into a successful gank.


The problem is that you cannot make a profit anymore. They might still be gankable but if there is no money in it then nobody is going to do it. The only threat to high sec miners have more or less been removed.


That's weird, because low-sec piracy and ganking in high-sec were never very profitable activities. I was always told by people who blew me up; and there are lot of them thanks to bad luck and lazyness, that it was all up for the laughs and having fun...

...no?

Isn't the entire ganking economy based on tears, not isk?

Unless, of course, you were busy selling mining ships....
Herr Hammer Draken
#117 - 2012-09-25 21:56:00 UTC
Irate Fox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Vanria Vexed wrote:
You can still gank mining vessels, it just requires the ganker to invest more money into a successful gank.


The problem is that you cannot make a profit anymore. They might still be gankable but if there is no money in it then nobody is going to do it. The only threat to high sec miners have more or less been removed.


That's weird, because low-sec piracy and ganking in high-sec were never very profitable activities. I was always told by people who blew me up; and there are lot of them thanks to bad luck and lazyness, that it was all up for the laughs and having fun...

...no?

Isn't the entire ganking economy based on tears, not isk?

Unless, of course, you were busy selling mining ships....


The price of strip mining lasers and crystals recently went through the roof, High enough in fact to make ganking profitable on many barges. So I wonder about your statement. Perhaps the gankers are selling these things...

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#118 - 2012-09-25 22:22:54 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Irate Fox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Vanria Vexed wrote:
You can still gank mining vessels, it just requires the ganker to invest more money into a successful gank.


The problem is that you cannot make a profit anymore. They might still be gankable but if there is no money in it then nobody is going to do it. The only threat to high sec miners have more or less been removed.


That's weird, because low-sec piracy and ganking in high-sec were never very profitable activities. I was always told by people who blew me up; and there are lot of them thanks to bad luck and lazyness, that it was all up for the laughs and having fun...

...no?

Isn't the entire ganking economy based on tears, not isk?

Unless, of course, you were busy selling mining ships....


The price of strip mining lasers and crystals recently went through the roof, High enough in fact to make ganking profitable on many barges. So I wonder about your statement. Perhaps the gankers are selling these things...

We sell the stuff that makes the tech ii stuff.

So, yeah, basically we do.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#119 - 2012-09-25 23:03:55 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
I usually post in "ganking is good gameplay" threads disagreeing with that notion as a general course. It's gameplay that promotes bullying, and gives an excuse to harass players. I just don't agree that such a thing represents good gameplay. It's that simple.


Ganking is good gameplay, it does not promote harassment. What does promote harassment is the broken wardec system which doesn't provide a limit on the duration of wardecs, and makes it cheaper for a large entity to harass a smaller entity than vice versa. Bad gameplay is when players can get easy rewards for doing silly things such as autopiloting a freighter load of PLEX. Ganking provides the consequences that NPCs cannot.

I have survived gank attempts in the past, with ships tanked far less than 30k EHP. As long as you pay attention to the usual traffic and remain especially alert when unknowns pass through the system, you should be safe. As you pointed out yourself, you've been playing for years and only suffered one loss.

I apologise for assuming you were one of the people who unsubscribed over the issue.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
PI Maker
Doomheim
#120 - 2012-09-26 03:52:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PI Maker wrote:

why don't you and your buddies stop whining and bring out a destroyer fleet? can you seriously not get 5 or 6 goons in destroyers together to do some ganking of miners? can a 6k man alliance not put together 250 destroyer alts? have the goons been neutered by a simple EHP buff? is that all it took to turn you guys into whiny babies? where the **** is your emergent gameplay?


We only ganked miners because it was profitable. The EHP buff means that macks are no longer profitable to gank so we no longer gank them. This is something miners have never been able to grasp for some reason.

The EHP of the mack also means that the skiff, a ship built for greater protection from ganks, is pointless.

so basically, you're whining that the resource you were farming isn't as profitable as it once was. has it really come to this? i thought you guys were the best and brightest villains in eve. has the idea well been tapped out? with 6k of you, it shouldn't be hard for you to get together a massive noob ship blob. you could do it with trial accounts. even buying fittings for it would be a rounding error in your null sec pilots' wallets.

put your numbers to work. your high sec pve got nerfed. get over it. i'm pretty sure that's what goons tell the rest of us.