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NULL whiners mantra is getting tedious... and CSM lacks HI SEC representation

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#681 - 2012-09-04 13:32:20 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
They can become better informed by us continuing and increasing what has been done before.

How?

Please read previous posts that pretty much says it all.

I've yet to see a single idea of yours on this topic which would be anything but a waste of time, so I ask again: how?

Frying Doom wrote:
Also as the CSM only come up in the game once a year, why would people who's only used access to eve is via the game consider it relevant?

Because they're being told "YOUR VOTE IS IMPORTANT - VOTE NOW", with links to various specially made pages related to the CSM, including a list of the candidates and, iirc, a page which told you which candidate your views fit the best?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#682 - 2012-09-04 13:37:52 UTC
Well sometimes its just time to be blunt in an argument.

This is wishful thinking. CCP is not going to bother educating people through some sort of forced program in which people are given no option but to vote, or any other sort of "educate the people about CSM" program. They don't give a crap who votes for the CSM anymore than the people who don't vote give a crap who ends up being on the CSM.

In the end in order for their to be a problem their has to be at least 1 unhappy party involved and there aren't any unhappy parties here. The people who don't give a crap about who the CSM is or what they do don't care and the people who do who do give a crap vote.

There really is nothing to argue here. Nothing will change because their is no demand or outcry for it to change except apparently this one poster.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Frying Doom
#683 - 2012-09-04 13:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
They can become better informed by us continuing and increasing what has been done before.

How?

Please read previous posts that pretty much says it all.

I've yet to see a single idea of yours on this topic which would be anything but a waste of time, so I ask again: how?

Frying Doom wrote:
Also as the CSM only come up in the game once a year, why would people who's only used access to eve is via the game consider it relevant?

Because they're being told "YOUR VOTE IS IMPORTANT - VOTE NOW", with links to various specially made pages related to the CSM, including a list of the candidates and, iirc, a page which told you which candidate your views fit the best?

And yet the turn out is still so low.

You tell me it is a waste of time but why? the fact that they are not part of their own games future is reason enough to try harder. Considering the fact that last year they did more to alert the populous to the elections than ever before and were rewarded with an increase of 10013 votes, so if what they did last year netted an extra 10,000+ votes it stands to reason that if even more is done, even more people will vote.

And this will result in a majority council eventually.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#684 - 2012-09-04 13:43:50 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
serras bang wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
From what I can tell at least the nullsec CSM representatives understand highsec mechanics and issues better than at least 90% of people who play EVE exclusively in highsec.
Furthermore they're capable of looking at EVE as a whole and understanding changes to highsec as how it would relate to the bigger picture. A highsec only candidate probably wouldn't have the same understanding of lowsec or nullsec and would probably be too concerned with just the issues (or some perceived issues) of his little corner of space.


and thats exactly a bad thing its why people from all sec space and profestions should be on here if you are a hi sec candidate and a carebear yourself then why should you give a damn about null and low you represent the hi sec players and only them not the null and low. so not the worst thing that could happen.

Except hisec isn't an insular place, it affects the entirety of the rest of the game. If it has a reward scheme which is too good (incursions pre-nerf, L4s, massive manufacturing capacity, etc etc etc), then it will have a detrimental effect on the other areas of space, and it does.

If you have a hisec carebear focusing only on hisec carebearing, then every time someone says things like "nerf L4s", "increase manufacturing installation costs", "increase sales taxes" or similar things, then he will have a literal heartattack because his rewards go down/costs go up oh god, whereas it may very well be a part of a long list of changes which CCP must make to keep the game as a whole healthy in the long run. Case in point, a thread somewhere in which someone said that the PI taxes were exorbiant and should really, really be reduced so they wouldn't get "so gouged with taxes". What they fail to see is that after the taxes are reduced, what'll happen is that everyone'll war down the prices on everything, and voila they're back to square one and they'll ***** and moan yet again about exorbiant taxes.

People who have a bigger view of the game will always end up having a more balanced view of how a change will impact the game as a whole, and this is better than someone who's sole eve existence consists of making manufacturing spreadsheets and hauling stuff around in hisec.


i see your point here i do however hi sec still has to be able to make your isk or your force people into low and null witch gose against the whole point of free will your choices are your own. i aint saying things such as minning or something should be the same everywere nah but it dosent mean you should nerf hi sec rather give a buff to low and null.

but the point still stands that reguardless of your biliefs if your a csm person and you got there to represent the hi sec population your there to represent them as best as possible even if that means fighting tooth and nail for something you do not necesary bilieve in or at the very least cut the deal that retains the most for hi sec.
Frying Doom
#685 - 2012-09-04 13:45:30 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Well sometimes its just time to be blunt in an argument.

This is wishful thinking. CCP is not going to bother educating people through some sort of forced program in which people are given no option but to vote, or any other sort of "educate the people about CSM" program. They don't give a crap who votes for the CSM anymore than the people who don't vote give a crap who ends up being on the CSM.

In the end in order for their to be a problem their has to be at least 1 unhappy party involved and there aren't any unhappy parties here. The people who don't give a crap about who the CSM is or what they do don't care and the people who do who do give a crap vote.

There really is nothing to argue here. Nothing will change because their is no demand or outcry for it to change except apparently this one poster.

Actually I would argue that given that they did spend extra time educating the populous last year, that they do infact care about the CSM and hell if they don't care why fork out for all those plane tickets.

As to unhappy people around here, have you seen the forums and that is the whine we know about, it is kind of like an iceberg only part of the whine is visible.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#686 - 2012-09-04 13:57:24 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
And yet the turn out is still so low.

Except it isn't.

serras bang wrote:
i see your point here i do however hi sec still has to be able to make your isk or your force people into low and null witch gose against the whole point of free will your choices are your own. i aint saying things such as minning or something should be the same everywere nah but it dosent mean you should nerf hi sec rather give a buff to low and null.

but the point still stands that reguardless of your biliefs if your a csm person and you got there to represent the hi sec population your there to represent them as best as possible even if that means fighting tooth and nail for something you do not necesary bilieve in or at the very least cut the deal that retains the most for hi sec.

I strongly doubt anyone wants to make it so nobody can make any money at all in hisec, not even I, and I'll happily say "remove L4s from hisec". There's a reason I keep saying remove L4s: CCP have repeatedly tried to up the reward levels in f.ex nullsec to the point where people actually find it worth doing, and they nerfed it in a panic within a few months of implementing them, because the rewards had to be too high to do so. L4s end up, in their current form, of setting a dangerously high baseline for effortless rewards (of course, now FW farmville is even worse, but CCP is going to nerf that shortly I believe), which in turn means that instead of being out and about in nullsec, most nullsec people have hisec chars to make money with, which has a detrimental effect on how alive a built-up space feels, it means that people have less incentives to actually take space, and less incentives to upgrade space, and in turn it means that roaming gangs are frustrated by a near complete lack of people to actually gank. Etc, etc, etc.

A hisec only guy will never, ever be able to see this side of the coin.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#687 - 2012-09-04 14:00:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anslo wrote:


So it isn't representative, I know. My point is that the CSM is supposed to be the voice of the player base, a representative one, but it isn't.


And WHY isn't it? Because ccp did something wrong? Because null sec residents did something wrong?

Or, because high sec people don't give a damn and don't vote.

Quote:

What is it with this attitude? So what if they want to solo? So what if they're casual? And so what if they wanna be in high sec? When it comes down to it, money is money. They're subscription is no better or worse than yours. As such, they DO deserve representation.


No they don't, if they can't be arsed to click a button and vote. They deserve exactly what they are getting (hell, not even that much IMO)

I don't care about people who want to solo or be casual or be in high sec (i'm taking a semi-break from null sec war running missions in high sec this week, real solo and casual like)........

.....So long as they understand that what they are doing basically makes them a second class citizen not experiencing the full game, we have no problem. When you play an MMO like a single player game, why do you expect it to be like a single player game? It's an mmo.

Again, I don't care how someone else plays,l until they come here and ask CCP to change the game to suit them rather than either accepting it as it is or adapting themselves to the game as it is.

My problem with the "solo, casual high sec only, no voting for the CSM" set isn't how they play (play as you like as long as you are within the eula), it's that they somehow expect the same support from ccp and in game as those of us who pay our dues in unprotected space while being social and putting in the game time to get good. The "high sec residents" sense of undeserved entitlement rivals any real world welfare queen in intensity lol.


This GAME is no different than any other. There are people in these forums that would like to believe they are somehow better than everyone else that pays their sub just as they do. Just like other GAMES it’s the vocal minority on the forums that’s seems to get the Devs attention. Here is a news flash for you. This is a GAME and many people take it just for what it is… a GAME… People play for many reasons most are casual or solo, it’s those people that keep this game going, it’s those people subs that keep eve going and pays salaries and allows people like yourself to come here and think your superior. Without the silent majority you wouldn’t have this game. Then where would you go to feel superior?
Signal11th
#688 - 2012-09-04 14:03:26 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anslo wrote:


So it isn't representative, I know. My point is that the CSM is supposed to be the voice of the player base, a representative one, but it isn't.


And WHY isn't it? Because ccp did something wrong? Because null sec residents did something wrong?

Or, because high sec people don't give a damn and don't vote.

Quote:

What is it with this attitude? So what if they want to solo? So what if they're casual? And so what if they wanna be in high sec? When it comes down to it, money is money. They're subscription is no better or worse than yours. As such, they DO deserve representation.


No they don't, if they can't be arsed to click a button and vote. They deserve exactly what they are getting (hell, not even that much IMO)

I don't care about people who want to solo or be casual or be in high sec (i'm taking a semi-break from null sec war running missions in high sec this week, real solo and casual like)........

.....So long as they understand that what they are doing basically makes them a second class citizen not experiencing the full game, we have no problem. When you play an MMO like a single player game, why do you expect it to be like a single player game? It's an mmo.

Again, I don't care how someone else plays,l until they come here and ask CCP to change the game to suit them rather than either accepting it as it is or adapting themselves to the game as it is.

My problem with the "solo, casual high sec only, no voting for the CSM" set isn't how they play (play as you like as long as you are within the eula), it's that they somehow expect the same support from ccp and in game as those of us who pay our dues in unprotected space while being social and putting in the game time to get good. The "high sec residents" sense of undeserved entitlement rivals any real world welfare queen in intensity lol.


This GAME is no different than any other. There are people in these forums that would like to believe they are somehow better than everyone else that pays their sub just as they do. Just like other GAMES it’s the vocal minority on the forums that’s seems to get the Devs attention. Here is a news flash for you. This is a GAME and many people take it just for what it is… a GAME… People play for many reasons most are casual or solo, it’s those people that keep this game going, it’s those people subs that keep eve going and pays salaries and allows people like yourself to come here and think your superior. Without the silent majority you wouldn’t have this game. Then where would you go to feel superior?



You make me ashamed to be a Steel Panther fan. Sad

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Frying Doom
#689 - 2012-09-04 14:04:19 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
And yet the turn out is still so low.

Except it isn't.


Nice dodge on the 10013 extra votes last years education netted. The fact is education works the numbers prove it works, so more education will net more votes.

and 16.63% is a low turn out, no matter how you stack it, it might be good for player interaction but then I asked Tippia multiple times if those MMOs had a player council, but did not seem to get an answer. The basic fact is 16.63% is a minority.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
highonpop
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#690 - 2012-09-04 14:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: highonpop
If there are so many more people in highsec that actually care about the game enough to vote in the CSM, why cant they get someone on the CSM? Nominate someone and then vote for them. Not that hard.


Why?

As I said before, most highsec inhabitants just don't care enough or take eve seriously enough to vote in the CSM. I speak from experience, I had never voted, had a desire to vote, or even knew why I should vote for CSM until I moved out of highsec


If there really are that many more people in HS than 0.0 that want CSM representation, then VOTE IN THE CSM ELECTION! You act like they are assigned by CCP.

FC, what do?
Signal11th
#691 - 2012-09-04 14:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
And yet the turn out is still so low.

Except it isn't.


Nice dodge on the 10013 extra votes last years education netted.
.



You sure the majority of those aren't just alts of people who already vote......

Also you keep bleating on about 16% being a minority, well you don't actually have a valid start out number to make this assumption, no-one has made a tally of of how many people who don;t vote are bots, alts of people who vote, people who will never vote.

So until this is known 16% might actually be a larger number than you envisaged.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#692 - 2012-09-04 14:08:22 UTC
I know, once CSM voting opens, CCP should make it so that you must vote to log in. Of course, they would need to randomize the order so that the person on top doesn't get in as the "people who don't care" representative.

On the plus side, we might get another unstable person on the CSM for maximum hilarity and minimum success.


We had a high sec candidate once. Her name was AnksomethingIcan'tspell.
Look her up on the old forums.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#693 - 2012-09-04 14:10:22 UTC


OP believes in democracy.

I move that we vote to close this thread as the discussion is foolish, pointless and the argument is going in circles.

All in favour?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Frying Doom
#694 - 2012-09-04 14:13:57 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
And yet the turn out is still so low.

Except it isn't.


Nice dodge on the 10013 extra votes last years education netted.
.



You sure the majority of those aren't just alts of people who already vote......

Also you keep bleating on about 16% being a minority, well you don't actually have a valid start out number to make this assumption, no-one has made a tally of of how many people who don;t vote are bots, alts of people who vote, people who will never vote.

So until this is known 16% might actually be a larger number than you envisaged.

Again unknown but not very likely as no one group went up by anything like that and the votes required for the seats except the top seat were reasonably stable to . So even if you assumed that the top voter had 5000 padding alts that still leaves over 5000 new voters for the election. No matter what it is still showing that last years increase in education worked.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#695 - 2012-09-04 14:16:49 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:


OP believes in democracy.

I move that we vote to close this thread as the discussion is foolish, pointless and the argument is going in circles.

All in favour?

Actually the OP believes in:
DarthNefarius wrote:
The meme that CCP has a perennial “drive people out of high-sec” dilema is just a pile of bull *****. Come on that is a myth thats repeated over & over again by NULL trolls in hopes CCP starts believeing in it.

The only more moronic/tedious myth is James 315's UNABOMBEReske manifestos on how mining is the scurge of all Eve.

Also it appears from the way this thread is moving the general lack of CSM represtation of pilots in HI SEC is lacking
Discuss...

So maybe you need further EducationLol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#696 - 2012-09-04 14:16:52 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
And yet the turn out is still so low.

Except it isn't.


Nice dodge on the 10013 extra votes last years education netted.
.



You sure the majority of those aren't just alts of people who already vote......

Also you keep bleating on about 16% being a minority, well you don't actually have a valid start out number to make this assumption, no-one has made a tally of of how many people who don;t vote are bots, alts of people who vote, people who will never vote.

So until this is known 16% might actually be a larger number than you envisaged.

Again unknown but not very likely as no one group went up by anything like that and the votes required for the seats except the top seat were reasonably stable to . So even if you assumed that the top voter had 5000 padding alts that still leaves over 5000 new voters for the election. No matter what it is still showing that last years increase in education worked.

I think it was the EVE mail and local spam that worked.


No evidence to back it up though.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#697 - 2012-09-04 14:16:54 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Nice dodge on the 10013 extra votes last years education netted. The fact is education works the numbers prove it works, so more education will net more votes.

That had absolutely nothing to do with education, and everything to do with turning people from "I don't give a ****" to "I actually care" by demonstrating that the CSM isn't a complete and utter sham like it was pre-CSM6. CSM6 became the most popular CSM election because CSM5 were filled with pants on head ******** fucksticks who unironically thought things like jumpbridges were used, daily, to move whole fleets from one side of the universe to the other side of the universe. No matter how many times we said "we use staging systems, you imbecilic retards", they still went with "hurr durr JBs = force projection durrrr", so we got engaged and actually gave a ****.

Apparently the same thing happened for CSM7. This was not something which CCP themselves did, this came around from players themselves going "you know, this is something I should care about", and your ideas of "put an abstain/vote dialog box upon login" will not come even close to achieving any of that. All ideas of that nature will do is **** people off.

Frying Doom wrote:
16.63% is a low turn out

Nope.

Frying Doom wrote:
The basic fact is 16.63% is a minority.

And the basic fact is that unless you make people care, the minority is going to be the majority. Putting up abstain/vote dialog boxes upon login will not make people care.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#698 - 2012-09-04 14:22:50 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
[quote=Frying Doom]Nice dodge on the 10013 extra votes last years education netted. The fact is education works the numbers prove it works, so more education will net more votes.

That had absolutely nothing to do with education, and everything to do with turning people from "I don't give a ****" to "I actually care" by demonstrating that the CSM isn't a complete and utter sham like it was pre-CSM6. CSM6 became the most popular CSM election because CSM5 were filled with pants on head ******** fucksticks who unironically thought things like jumpbridges were used, daily, to move whole fleets from one side of the universe to the other side of the universe. No matter how many times we said "we use staging systems, you imbecilic retards", they still went with "hurr durr JBs = force projection durrrr", so we got engaged and actually gave a ****.

Apparently the same thing happened for CSM7. This was not something which CCP themselves did, this came around from players themselves going "you know, this is something I should care about", and your ideas of "put an abstain/vote dialog box upon login" will not come even close to achieving any of that. All ideas of that nature will do is **** people off.
Actually the vote increase for your candidate does not explain the increased votes, nor does players who have no exposure to the forums suddenly voting because they suddenly learned about it.

I find it no coincidence that when CCP increased its player education levels the number of voters increased as well. As the statistics I have quoted have nothing to do with the increase in voting between CSM 5 and CSM 6 their actions have little bearing.

Argue all that you may the conclusion that advertising the CSM to the player base worked and worked well and it will do again and hopefully in an even bigger way.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#699 - 2012-09-04 14:30:26 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:


OP believes in democracy.

I move that we vote to close this thread as the discussion is foolish, pointless and the argument is going in circles.

All in favour?

Actually the OP believes in:
DarthNefarius wrote:
The meme that CCP has a perennial “drive people out of high-sec” dilema is just a pile of bull *****. Come on that is a myth thats repeated over & over again by NULL trolls in hopes CCP starts believeing in it.

The only more moronic/tedious myth is James 315's UNABOMBEReske manifestos on how mining is the scurge of all Eve.

Also it appears from the way this thread is moving the general lack of CSM represtation of pilots in HI SEC is lacking
Discuss...

So maybe you need further EducationLol



Hi sec players don't vote, you believe voting would solve that.

So surely if the majority of people reading this thread voted to close it and shut you up you'd be ok with that right?

Or do you need to go educate the high sec players this thread is there first?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#700 - 2012-09-04 14:33:25 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
I find it no coincidence that when CCP increased its player education levels the number of voters increased as well.
…except that CCP didn't increase their “education”. What happened was that people cared enough to vote. You keep confusing “being educated” with caring when the two are completely unrelated.

By the way, how do manage to keep justifying to yourself the absolutely nonsensical claim that having 2-3× (or 15× depending on how you count) the engagement of other games somehow counts as the engagement being “low”?