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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

First post First post
Author
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#301 - 2012-08-31 17:14:31 UTC
Bienator II wrote:

so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex.


That idea is definitely on our radar but we have not committed to it yet internally, still being discussed.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#302 - 2012-08-31 17:15:13 UTC
Amazing changes.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat

...

NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.


How apt are they to kill drones?
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#303 - 2012-08-31 17:15:17 UTC
Generally sounds really good.

With capture buttons (and definitely the capture range) being right on the warp-in beacon, won't all plex fights just be close range blapping?

Also, did I miss anything on whether a timer will count back down if no attackers are in range?
(there was quite a lot to read through over the two threads)
Jack bubu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#304 - 2012-08-31 17:18:14 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
@Ytterbimbang those fixes would already fix a lot of issues.

however a few possible problems:
- bring a wt alt with you.. no npcs spawn?


i also don't like the warpin spot changes. IMO there should be more reasons why i should stay in a plex and defend my efforts when a wt warps in, otherwise they will just leave as soon something is on close range dscan, move to the next system while the wt has to undo the plexing. (pvp blocker)

so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex.

yes but when your wt alt prevents nps from spawning he will pause the capturing himself, if he leaves the npcs spawns :)
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#305 - 2012-08-31 17:19:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ty Delaney
It all looks good!

Except there's something weird going on. This:

Quote:

* Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes.


Would seem to imply that the NPC rats build up over time. (They would have to, as otherwise a 'very low damage' npc isn't going to ever break an active tanked ship.)

But this...
Quote:

* NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed.


Seems to imply they do not ever build up.

So... how is a single "very-low-damage" NPC going to kill a single or dual-repped incursus who just chooses to ignore it?

(Yes, I know he'll never capture the plex if he doesn't kill it, but he still doesn't NEED to kill it to live.)

Related question:
If NPCs put a site into contested mode, and they respawn replacements when you kill the current one, how long is (for example) a 10-minute plex really going to take, with these changes? How much time from a dead NPC to the new spawn?
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#306 - 2012-08-31 17:19:17 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Axl Borlara wrote:

With capture buttons (and definitely the capture range) being right on the warp-in beacon, won't all plex fights just be close range blapping?
It just changes the dynamic a bit. The short range solo guy can sit on warpin and run timer now without having to make a choice of setting up properly for a fight or running the timer. However, fast guys can sit on timer and burn away when enemy comes in. For gangs, one fast guy can sit on timer, and the rest of the gang can sit at whatever range they like.

Just don't be a slow, long range solo guy. You're dead. Big smile
Dan Carter Murray
#307 - 2012-08-31 17:19:24 UTC
actually...on second thought, doesn't this decrease the BC usage since there is no plex which caps out at BC hull size? (in other words, Large complexes are the only ones which BCs can enter, but BSs can also enter...along with everything else)

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#308 - 2012-08-31 17:21:29 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Amazing changes.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat

...

NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.


How apt are they to kill drones?


With the sleeper AI we basically have a slider to adjust their hatred of drones, we can take them all the way from "Member of NPCs for the ethical treatment of drones" to "Drones killed my parents and forced me into life as a sociopathic superhero" and anywhere in between.

So we'll tweak based on test server feedback.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Roddex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#309 - 2012-08-31 17:22:05 UTC
Will the cruiser complex (Medium) allow Tech 3 cruisers?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2012-08-31 17:22:16 UTC
the low dps idea is a bad one.

Let them fight like lions but step back once a friendly capsuleer arrives
Mike deVoid
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2012-08-31 17:23:13 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
[/list]


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.

What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#312 - 2012-08-31 17:23:44 UTC
Roddex wrote:
Will the cruiser complex (Medium) allow Tech 3 cruisers?


... well, it doesn't currently allows tech 2 cruisers, so...
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#313 - 2012-08-31 17:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Jack bubu wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@Ytterbimbang those fixes would already fix a lot of issues.

however a few possible problems:
- bring a wt alt with you.. no npcs spawn?
...

yes but when your wt alt prevents nps from spawning he will pause the capturing himself, if he leaves the npcs spawns :)


oh right. that fixes it. thanks!

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#314 - 2012-08-31 17:25:03 UTC
Mike deVoid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
[/list]


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.

What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?


We know about that, don't worry.

The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#315 - 2012-08-31 17:27:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


With the sleeper AI we basically have a slider to adjust their hatred of drones, we can take them all the way from "Member of NPCs for the ethical treatment of drones" to "Drones killed my parents and forced me into life as a sociopathic superhero" and anywhere in between.

So we'll tweak based on test server feedback.


I am a card-carrying member of PETD. Please don't hurt the drones, Gallente ships have it bad enough as it is. You gave us the cool Tristan, don't ban it from the plexes!

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Jack bubu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#316 - 2012-08-31 17:29:24 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:
Roddex wrote:
Will the cruiser complex (Medium) allow Tech 3 cruisers?


... well, it doesn't currently allows tech 2 cruisers, so...

but it will after these changes.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#317 - 2012-08-31 17:30:58 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.


YAAAAAAAAY!!!! An end to "Standings tanking" !!

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#318 - 2012-08-31 17:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Me again o/

Capture beacon location:
Bad idea. Assaulting a plex occupied by an enemy is insanely hard as is, this will effectively put all 'defenders' on the warp-in where they get 2-3s worth of "free" dps due to grid load and such. It needs to be 20km+ for it to have a positive impact on PvP, the farmer will be unaffected as he will warp when you land on gate instead of when you land inside so they'll still be buzzing around.
End result will be an amplification of current trend when assaulting, overwhelm with stupidly high numbers = no fight.

Unify capture range:
30km is too much and will kill fights in minors entirely. Combined with the above you have zero hope of evicting say an Arty Thrasher swarm (which are probably still the most common spam ship).
If it must be uniform then 20km is much better, especially when combined with 20km beacon location.

Increase contested range:
Goddess no .. or rather not without additional tweaks, particularly to grid size. Might just be twitches left over from the old Dramiel's Benny'ing all over the place but this will not promote fights as the guy on the button will not chase a silly bugger all over creation just to get the seconds ticking when he can just as easily go to another plex.

Complex size and name changes:
Good. Allow rookie ships in all sizes and you are set.

  • FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES
  • Holy crap! Thought it a long-shot when I and others suggested creating a FW specific sub-set .. pure :AWESOMESAUCE:

    * NPCs contest capture timer:
    MOAR SAUCE!

    * NPC number reduction:
    With tanks and better AI, numbers wont matter much so good on you.

    * NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening:
    Be careful with how this is implemented, I foresee alts in opposing militia being used to turn off spawns .. quadruple check the code before launching it.
    Also, if they are not to have eWar then why did you use it above as justification for reducing numbers .. hmmmmmmm Lol

    * NPC standing aggression revamp:
    And there you have it folks, "Blurry" in Iceland is the same broken, borked, unwieldy etc. in the rest of the world!

    Good call. You are working on aggression mechanics at any rate so better have a strong back-bone that can be used elsewhere than try adding some ham-fisted "attack everything" line to FW rats.
    Just do us a favour, declare the obvious abuses a No-No until the system is in place and give those GM types something to do while swilling what is likely atrocious coffee (office coffee = *yuck*).
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Bienator II wrote:

    so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex.


    That idea is definitely on our radar but we have not committed to it yet internally, still being discussed.

    Hope so, it was a great idea in 2009 when Merdaneth suggested it and it is a great idea now .. solves a whole slew of problems related to defensive plexing.
    Alli Othman
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #319 - 2012-08-31 17:36:57 UTC
    Bienator II wrote:
    @Ytterbimbang those fixes would already fix a lot of issues.

    however a few possible problems:
    - bring a wt alt with you.. no npcs spawn?

    Did you even think before you said that? The contestion won't run with a WT in the plex.
    Cynthia Nezmor
    Nezmor's Golden Griffins
    #320 - 2012-08-31 17:40:03 UTC
    Sleeper AI is very good idea, low damage is not. Even with these changes there will be a lot of "we plex this system, the enemy can't bring enough numbers, they leave us alone" situtation. Basically there will be a lot of pve. If those NPCs can actually kill me (scram, web, neut, jam, td, etc.), it makes it risky and therefore more FUN.

    Also could you please somehow break the off grid boosters if a fleet member is in a plex? It seems awfully unfair that I have a faction frigate in a minor, but my Tengu cant come to help when I am fighting an enemy frigate and his Loki.

    http://i.imgur.com/QLit4.gif