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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

First post First post
Author
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#341 - 2012-08-31 20:47:45 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I'm with XG on the capture/contest range, making it 30km all around and being able to contest as soon as you're on grid gives a buff to kitey faggots that don't need any more buffs to their play style. Is there any reason why you guys don't want to make the timer run back when someone is not actively running it?


Well, it's just one more reason to stop flying useless blaster boats :)
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#342 - 2012-08-31 20:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mike deVoid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
[/list]


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.

What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?


We know about that, don't worry.

The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.


What about diagonal militias?

If I am a pilot in the minmatar militia defensively capturing a gallente plex, but my gallente standing is only +3, the "friendly" rats in a major plex will shoot at me even though I am counting the timer down for them.

Will this be fixed? Or put another way, will my faction membership in the minmatar militia count?
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2012-08-31 21:06:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mike deVoid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
[/list]


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.

What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?


We know about that, don't worry.

The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.


Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#344 - 2012-08-31 21:13:28 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month?

At least the farmers will now have to bring the appropriately sized ships for the job. Their defending alts (activated at about 95% contested level), however, will remain in fast frigs. Farmers are gonna farm. Farming will be a bit harder in the next patch.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#345 - 2012-08-31 21:21:03 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month?

At least the farmers will now have to bring the appropriately sized ships for the job. Their defending alts (activated at about 95% contested level), however, will remain in fast frigs. Farmers are gonna farm. Farming will be a bit harder in the next patch.


My message to CCP is to have rats spawn in the plexes according to who's inside - I don't know yet whether this is technically feasible or not, but I'm heavily encouraging it. What is needed here is that if I'm running a defensive plex, There are Amarr attacker spawns entering periodically. If I'm running an offensive plex, there are amarr defender spawns entering periodically.

The devil will be in the AI / aggro / programming, but this should be the absolute design goal to strive for if at all technically feasible. The last thing I want to see is the farming issue moved to D-plexing but not eliminated entirely.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Mike deVoid
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2012-08-31 21:38:44 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Do you guys feel that defensive plexing may end up being the new farming flavor of the month?

At least the farmers will now have to bring the appropriately sized ships for the job. Their defending alts (activated at about 95% contested level), however, will remain in fast frigs. Farmers are gonna farm. Farming will be a bit harder in the next patch.


My message to CCP is to have rats spawn in the plexes according to who's inside - I don't know yet whether this is technically feasible or not, but I'm heavily encouraging it. What is needed here is that if I'm running a defensive plex, There are Amarr attacker spawns entering periodically. If I'm running an offensive plex, there are amarr defender spawns entering periodically.

The devil will be in the AI / aggro / programming, but this should be the absolute design goal to strive for if at all technically feasible. The last thing I want to see is the farming issue moved to D-plexing but not eliminated entirely.


Well you couldn't farm very easily since you'd get very little at low % of contestation.
Mackenzie Ayres
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#347 - 2012-08-31 22:09:12 UTC
As per my previous post, can we get the timers moved to the HUD?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1798235#post1798235

Mac
Durrr
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#348 - 2012-08-31 22:10:39 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


While I have no problem with the "rookie" and new "small" plexes, I have some comments/questions in regards to the new medium, and new large plexes.

First of all, will the new large plex still have an acceleration gate that keeps out:
A: Cynos
B: Capitals
C: Assigned Fighters from Carriers.

Or will they be more like the rarely seen unrestricted majors of today?

Secondly, I have a 'meh" feeling to the proposed medium plex change. I have a feeling that T2 cruisers would make t1 cruisers obsolete (since they cannot enter any smaller plex, and are at a rather large disadvantage to their t2 counterparts in mediums) at least with the way the ships are now (after cruiser tiercide, things may be different). IMO, t2 cruisers are much more on even footing with battlecruisers. If you really wanted a plex size which had t2/t3 cruisers, but not battlecruisers, I would urge that there remains a seperate plex for just t1 cruisers and below.

My ideal situation would be:
Rookie Plex- T1 Frigs
Small Plex: Faction/T2 Frigs/Dessies + Rookie plex ships
Red Headed Stepchild Plex: T1 Cruisers + Small Plex ships
Medium Plex: perhaps similar to today's large plexes, although I wouldn't be offended if they didn't allow battlecruisers.
Large Plexes: Unrestricted sub-caps
and on a very rare occasion Giant Plexes: Completely Unrestricted- I would still like to keep the plex free of cynos though, so that if someone wants to bring capitals in, they would have to cyno them somewhere other than on top of you, and then warp them in.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#349 - 2012-08-31 22:49:09 UTC
Durrr, lets have a bit of faith in CCP Fozzie - the reason you feel Tech 2 frigs aren't OP in small plexes is because Tech 1 frigs have been balanced properly and now are very much viable alongside their tech 2 counterparts.

Once tech 1 cruisers (including logi) are buffed to the same level of usefulness (especially in terms of bang-for-your-buck) as tech 1 frigates, you'll see them fielded just as much even if tech 2 cruisers are allowed in medium plexes.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Durrr
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#350 - 2012-08-31 23:44:00 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Durrr, lets have a bit of faith in CCP Fozzie - the reason you feel Tech 2 frigs aren't OP in small plexes is because Tech 1 frigs have been balanced properly and now are very much viable alongside their tech 2 counterparts.

Once tech 1 cruisers (including logi) are buffed to the same level of usefulness (especially in terms of bang-for-your-buck) as tech 1 frigates, you'll see them fielded just as much even if tech 2 cruisers are allowed in medium plexes.



I did point out that this is how I felt about how the cruisers are now (pre-tiercied). The fact remains though that if they implement these changes for winter, it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love, during which time nobody will really fly t1 cruisers in mediums.

I will take your word though Hans, and give 'em some faith.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#351 - 2012-08-31 23:50:38 UTC
Durrr wrote:
it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love


Sure about that? Cool

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#352 - 2012-08-31 23:51:51 UTC
I don't feel tech 2 frigates are balanced in the proposed small plexes and certainly not against Tech 1 frigates even the rebalanced ones. Assault ships will be the new top frig, even destroyers the cheap pvp option for countering frigs will have a hard time especially those with restricted damage types against racial resists. 

I certainly hope that there is not the kind of power creep that Tech one cruisers can compete with HACs. Buffing T1 cruises would mean they are more viable along side navy and pirate cruisers but I would consider ships like the vexor and thorax quite well balanced and still far off the HAC versions whose nearest T1 competition is really battlecruisers.
Hoarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#353 - 2012-09-01 00:03:52 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Durrr wrote:
it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love


Sure about that? Cool



THIS. This is the greatest thing I've heard in EvE all year. CRUISER LOVE FOR THE WINTER WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#354 - 2012-09-01 00:23:26 UTC
I can't Like + this post enough.

Seriously, great stuff!!!

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright folks, as promised, here are some iterations we are planning for winter.

Remember, this thread will focus on FW NPCs and complexes, for War Zone Control and System Upgrade changes, please refer to this post.


  • FW COMPLEX CHANGES

  • After reading the feedback from numerous community sources (had to read this post again to make sure we didn't forget any good point), we acknowledge that Factional Warfare complexes need to be changed and are high in our priority list.

    * Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.

    * Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.

    * Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.

    * Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).


  • FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES

  • We will be talking about complex NPC changes only here - we know FW mission NPCs need to be tackled as well, but for now let's focus on one problem at a time. Before we list the changes, the main activity we see for Factional Warfare is PvP. PvE should not override PvP in this feature, as such the NPCs need to be very specialized to meet the goals you mentioned in this thread.

    * NPC attribute revamp: this means two things. First, making sure no faction has an advantage over another. For example, having some factions use missiles while other have turrets is a no go. The other is to make sure we prevent, or at least significantly reduce AFK farming without hampering PvP when it does happen. Current FW complex NPCs will be scrapped and replaced with new ones that have the following characteristics:

    * Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes, but their damage potential is so small it won't hamper players if attacked by others while capturing.
    * Very high speeds: no matter what your fitting is, they will catch you. No endless Benny Hill music scene anymore.
    * No EW: no electronical warfare or any kind, as this would be destabilizing when PvP occurs
    * Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
    * Active tanking: NPCs will have an active tanking according to the complex size they are on to discourage players to tackle larger sites with undersized ships. For example, while Minor sites could have a frigate NPC easily killed in your own frigate, Major could have battlecruiser or battleships NPCs with a active tank extremely difficult to tackle on the same frigate.


    Why do the active tanking point matter you say? Because:

    * NPCs contest capture timer: as long as there is a NPC in the area the capture timer is paused, just like with an enemy player. Capture timer is only paused when attacking a complex. Defending a complex with NPCs of the same faction would not cause such pause. Coupled with the active tanking point above, it means that if you can't kill the NPC reasonably fast, you can't capture the complex.

    * NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. That was particularly a problem with EW NPCs, as while a few jamming NPCs is annoying but not a big deal, having 10-15 of them jamming you would prevent you from doing anything. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed. Again, PvE should not take over PvP in Factional Warfare.

    * NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: NPCs spawn at a semi-random period of time, and only when the complex is attacked while there is no defending player. Technically that means NPC prevent AFK farming. NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

    * NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.



Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate

Where I am.

Ovali Garsk
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2012-09-01 00:32:04 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.

* Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.

* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.

Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


Ok, I love the NPC changes.

Love the move of the capture button and the increase to 30km (for kiting style plexers).

But the increased contested range leaves me bewildered. Isn't that exploitable? What would stop sbd. from grabbing a fleet interceptor/Dram and essentially forever keep sbd. from contesting that plex. In ordinary circumstances you'd just move on, i guess (and let him waste his time), but what about a crucial moment, when people are trying to get a system into or out of vulnerable? Grab a few pilots and forever stop a those plexes from being completed?

Maybe I am missing something.

Other than that, good changes. Love the new iterating CCP.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#356 - 2012-09-01 01:02:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Durrr wrote:
it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love


Sure about that? Cool


Look what you did Durrr, you made Fozzie mad! Now he is going to hold out on rebalancing the cruisers for two years. Good job. Good job.

Fozzie, you have no officially gone on the record saying that you will fix cruisers by Winter ;-)

I know, I know, I have issues and should see a therapist about my trolling issues.
Sven Viko VIkolander
Tang Ping
#357 - 2012-09-01 02:35:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
Amazing changes.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat

...

NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.


How apt are they to kill drones?


With the sleeper AI we basically have a slider to adjust their hatred of drones, we can take them all the way from "Member of NPCs for the ethical treatment of drones" to "Drones killed my parents and forced me into life as a sociopathic superhero" and anywhere in between.

So we'll tweak based on test server feedback.





lolololol
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#358 - 2012-09-01 03:22:26 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I don't feel tech 2 frigates are balanced in the proposed small plexes and certainly not against Tech 1 frigates even the rebalanced ones. Assault ships will be the new top frig, even destroyers the cheap pvp option for countering frigs will have a hard time especially those with restricted damage types against racial resists. 

I certainly hope that there is not the kind of power creep that Tech one cruisers can compete with HACs. Buffing T1 cruises would mean they are more viable along side navy and pirate cruisers but I would consider ships like the vexor and thorax quite well balanced and still far off the HAC versions whose nearest T1 competition is really battlecruisers.


I too think the current plex restrictions are better than the proposed new ones.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#359 - 2012-09-01 03:26:52 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I do not feel the capture beacon location should change, at least not as much as you are suggesting.



Yeah it just means I will lose a few more ruptures to cynabals (and now vagabonds) unless I am sitting there spamming the dscan like a ninny.

Also like you said the distance helped for when blobs jumped in. Keeping everything right at the warp in will lead to more ganks but it won't lead to any more decent fights.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#360 - 2012-09-01 03:31:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Durrr wrote:
it will be at least 6 months (if not a year) before the cruisers get some love


Sure about that? Cool



Unless they are going to be able to compete with hacs its hard to see what place they will have in faction war.

These faction plex restriction changes seem like a big boost to t2 industry.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815