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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

First post First post
Author
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#321 - 2012-08-31 17:43:42 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Capture beacon location:
Bad idea. Assaulting a plex occupied by an enemy is insanely hard as is, this will effectively put all 'defenders' on the warp-in where they get 2-3s worth of "free" dps due to grid load and such.


There's at least 2-3 seconds of an invulnerability timer after you land, isn't there? It's something that rarely matters, but I was in a fleet once where we were instructed to wait on moving or activating any module so as to not break this invulnerability.
Mike deVoid
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2012-08-31 17:46:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mike deVoid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
[/list]


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.

What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?


We know about that, don't worry.

The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.


And for defensive plexing I won't get shot either?

The other aspect is that with the forced killing of NPCs now you will permanently mess up your faction standings locking you out of highsec even after you leave FW. It took me a long while to get my Caldari standings back up high enough that I could visit Jita again. I'd rather not lock myself out of highsec forever just for engaging in PVP in FW in my past. I can't run datacentre agents more than once so... find a solution for this please? Or tell me you like that there are permanent consequences for having picked a side in FW that persist after leaving?
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#323 - 2012-08-31 17:53:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mike deVoid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
[/list]


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.

What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?


We know about that, don't worry.

The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.


On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#324 - 2012-08-31 17:55:38 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Capture beacon location:
Bad idea. Assaulting a plex occupied by an enemy is insanely hard as is, this will effectively put all 'defenders' on the warp-in where they get 2-3s worth of "free" dps due to grid load and such.


There's at least 2-3 seconds of an invulnerability timer after you land, isn't there? It's something that rarely matters, but I was in a fleet once where we were instructed to wait on moving or activating any module so as to not break this invulnerability.

Then it has been added after I quit the plexing game some two years ago, cannot count the number of times I have saved a pod after ship popped without the ability to move much less fight.

But raises a tasty idea: Five second gate cloak when coming through plex gate. Double (or triple) width of 'spawn sphere'. ie make it a 5-7.5km radius rather than 2.5km and you'll suddenly have a fighting chance against even numbers who are entrenched inside plex.
Dan Carter Murray
#325 - 2012-08-31 17:56:08 UTC
Manssell wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mike deVoid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
[/list]


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.

What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?


We know about that, don't worry.

The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.


On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction?


you knew the repercussions when you joined FW.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

FistyMcBumBasher
Goryn Clade
#326 - 2012-08-31 17:57:37 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).



I am not sure what the plans are with the t1 cruisers, but with the change of t2 cruisers being allowed into mediums, logistics ships and recons are going to become more common. This will make people more risk averse, thereby decreasing the likelyhood that a gang will jump into another unless there are have equal numbers of logi/recons on both sides.

A more elegant solution would to make T2 cruisers in line with battlecruisers. T2 frigates are not allowed into the frigate sized plex, so why should t2 cruisers be allowed into T1?
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#327 - 2012-08-31 18:00:15 UTC
Is it possible to get rid of acceleration gates? Instead just now allowing ships to warp the beacon? Chalk it up to the mass of the ship not being able to generate a proper warp bubble or something like that. Gates discourage PVP. Just let frigates warp in on other frigates!
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#328 - 2012-08-31 18:02:18 UTC
Manssell wrote:
On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction?


Even if you don't shoot the rats, you'll get promotions from capturing plexes. Later promotions give you the largest faction standings in the game; the earliest promotions are competitive with what you'd get from running the SoE epic arc. So promotions destroy enemy standings all by themselves, and making you kill rats to plex is not really piling on new diplomatic troubles for you.

Train Diplomacy (a rank 1 skill); shop in Jita by just flying in (faction navy only web, and are entirely evaded by agile ships) and buying stuff and having an alt/courier service ship it out. Or even have an alt do the purchasing and contracting both, without ever leaving jita.

What you're really restricted from is missioning, incursions, and public events - stuff that requires you to hang aronud in a system, rather than move through it - in half of highsec.
Durrr
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#329 - 2012-08-31 18:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Durrr
disregard
Durrr
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#330 - 2012-08-31 18:27:48 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Me again o/

Capture beacon location:
Bad idea. Assaulting a plex occupied by an enemy is insanely hard as is, this will effectively put all 'defenders' on the warp-in where they get 2-3s worth of "free" dps due to grid load and such. It needs to be 20km+ for it to have a positive impact on PvP, the farmer will be unaffected as he will warp when you land on gate instead of when you land inside so they'll still be buzzing around.
End result will be an amplification of current trend when assaulting, overwhelm with stupidly high numbers = no fight.


When was the last time you were in a fleet fight in a plex? Everyone sits at range of the warpin anyways (with the button currently 60KM off) except for 1 person running it for the benefit of the fleet.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#331 - 2012-08-31 18:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Milton Middleson
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Bienator II wrote:

so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex.


That idea is definitely on our radar but we have not committed to it yet internally, still being discussed.


I think you should seriously consider it, because without it the current changes still don't really fix the problem that it is more time efficient to defend your space by dplexing than driving out offensive plexers. While I'm quite happy to see the end of gunless plexing frigates, I expect that it will still be trivial to run small plexes in a destroyer. I don't want to see fruitlessly pursuing stabbed merlins replaced by fruitlessly pursuing nanothrashers (granted, they will be much easier to catch that frigates, but the point is that driving someone out of a plex should result in them losing at least some of their forward progress).
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#332 - 2012-08-31 18:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Manssell wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mike deVoid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
[/list]


Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


I probably shouldn't expose this but I currently benefit from being in Caldari FW and having very high Gal and Min faction standings (I used to be in Gal FW 2 years ago). Currently this means that offensive plexing is easy since I never get attacked by the NPCs, but conversely it means I can never run a defensive plex.

What is going to happen to me when you 'fix' this?


We know about that, don't worry.

The NPCs should always consider faction membership above standings after the patch, so they'll shoot you like they shoot everyone in your faction.


On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction?


you knew the repercussions when you joined FW.


I know that. That's why I waited so long in my Eve life to finally join FW. I had some things to finish up. But lots of newer people I have been meeting don't understand what they are getting into in regards to the pain in the butt it's going to be for them after they leave FW. Of corse there is consequences for them, but the grind in this game is bad. But I suppose this is one of those "eve is hard for the sake of being hard arguments"?
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#333 - 2012-08-31 18:40:28 UTC
Quote:

* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).

Leave "unrestricted" to bunker busts. New L4 ought to be old L3.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#334 - 2012-08-31 18:41:18 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.


So far I LOVE everything about this but this:

a) If the pilot goes "off grid" are they still considered in the plex zone? (To prevent an enemy player from just burning away in a 8k/s dramiel forever.

b) System defence is possible with a super nano ship that runs forever with offgrid boost. Mix this with the grid mechanics and it can get a little exploitable in the sense that defence is no longer pvp but "run around and around and around until the opponent gets bored".
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#335 - 2012-08-31 18:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
FistyMcBumBasher wrote:
A more elegant solution would to make T2 cruisers in line with battlecruisers. T2 frigates are not allowed into the frigate sized plex, so why should t2 cruisers be allowed into T1?

This will definitely change the dynamics of the fights. The space for successful engagements with T1 cruisers and non-nanofag BCs has been removed. Logi/ECM ftw in this new FW.

There is no need to change plex entrance requirements now that the T1 frigs have been rebalanced.

Edit: Also, this will make T2 ships "king of the hill" and leave their T1 counterparts out in the cold. I thought the vision was for T2 = 0.0, Faction Navy = Low Sec, and T1 = High Sec?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2012-08-31 19:15:31 UTC
I do not feel the capture beacon location should change, at least not as much as you are suggesting.

At the moment when I pick up a ship on scan I have to decide to close to the beacon or stay and run the timer it will be easy to camp the warp in. I often camp the warp in any way, the npc’s can be killed and then I can run the timer if things are quiet.

The main reason I don’t like this is that currently if I pick up multiple ships on scan and then one warps in I can still choose to fight in the knowledge subsequent ships at least have some distance to travel. I don’t think lots of blobbing on the warp in will be fun.

I also feel that being able to contest the beacon from any point in the plex is exploitable, currently if someone gets range within a plex I can still approach and start counting down the timer they then are forced into engaging or risk losing the plex, the increased beacon activation range should give enough distance.

It is the NPC speed, tanking and timer changes that will work against afk farming plexers not moving the beacon.

I also do not like the ship restriction changes.

I can get T1 cruiser fights I can get frigate fights. T1 cruisers will be made obsolete in the plexes and the new small size will just be full of assault ships reducing the role of destoyers and even navy frigs.
Mike deVoid
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2012-08-31 19:25:34 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Manssell wrote:
On a related note, If we must now kill the rats to capture plexs, is there any thought being given to the issue of the terrible, terrible grind that must be done if one leaves FW to get standings back just to bad with the opposing faction?


Even if you don't shoot the rats, you'll get promotions from capturing plexes. Later promotions give you the largest faction standings in the game; the earliest promotions are competitive with what you'd get from running the SoE epic arc. So promotions destroy enemy standings all by themselves, and making you kill rats to plex is not really piling on new diplomatic troubles for you.

Train Diplomacy (a rank 1 skill); shop in Jita by just flying in (faction navy only web, and are entirely evaded by agile ships) and buying stuff and having an alt/courier service ship it out. Or even have an alt do the purchasing and contracting both, without ever leaving jita.

What you're really restricted from is missioning, incursions, and public events - stuff that requires you to hang aronud in a system, rather than move through it - in half of highsec.


You do not get promotions just for capturing plexes.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#338 - 2012-08-31 19:32:30 UTC
Mike deVoid wrote:
You do not get promotions just for capturing plexes.


I did not imagine all of the "You have been promoted." notifications that arrived the instant I captured a plex.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#339 - 2012-08-31 19:33:10 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Is it possible to get rid of acceleration gates? Instead just now allowing ships to warp the beacon? Chalk it up to the mass of the ship not being able to generate a proper warp bubble or something like that. Gates discourage PVP. Just let frigates warp in on other frigates!


I got it! Anyone can warp to the beacon but ships not meeting the requirements get dropped out of warp 500km or more from the beacon. Think of the beacon having a large warp bubble that stops that ships from entering it. You already have warp bubbles that drop people out of warp at a distance, so this is technically doable. Just need a few if's and else's with a large radius and BAM! no more acceleration gates.

Soundwave, I'm still waiting to hear back about my start date.
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2012-08-31 20:01:09 UTC
I'm with XG on the capture/contest range, making it 30km all around and being able to contest as soon as you're on grid gives a buff to kitey faggots that don't need any more buffs to their play style. Is there any reason why you guys don't want to make the timer run back when someone is not actively running it?