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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-08-16 15:39:51 UTC
I was really hoping for a Fap worthy rocket tristan with a armour rep bonus.

Dreams shattered. Though this drone Tristan is not bad at all. Would love to see the tracking bonus dropped for something else, admittly 5% hybrid damage per level would be a little bit OP with the drones and an armour rep bonus would make it silly for pve.

Still. Good job CCP. Also that breacher, I might have to give that a whirl.

I lied :o
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#62 - 2012-08-16 15:41:43 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2012-08-16 15:43:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.


BRB, buying all the small armour reps.

http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-08-16 15:45:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.

I knew deep down in my gut where the navitas was headed, im not sure i like it, it was far more exciting when it was going to be a drone ship.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Erim Solfara
House of Solfara
#65 - 2012-08-16 15:47:26 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CCP Fozzie

What about the Inquisitor?


It's getting a new role, to be unveiled along with the last set of frigs.


I'm not following the paradigm here, are all the races getting 2 combat frigates? If so, why on earth is the mining frigate becoming a combat frig, and a combat frig becoming something else?

Inquisitor should be in this group as far as I can tell from the information we have already. Would much rather the Tormentor became the new non-combat ship.
Adolf Hilmar
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-08-16 15:47:33 UTC
Nooo! Don't nerf my cyno kestrel's cargo hold. I need that space for ozone.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#67 - 2012-08-16 15:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Brunaburh wrote:

So what's the point of having a Gallente T2 stealth bomber at all?

Seriously, you've now laid out that there isn't a single Gallente frigate that requires any missile skills. The whole "racial" combat platform of drones + blasters sounds good in your head maybe, but doesn't make sense from a gameplay standpoint. Blaster boats have to be point blank and are armor tanked, so are slow to get into range and do their damage. Drone - focused boats aren't practical in PvP unless you are a suicide PVP player, because of drone recall times in GTFO situations. You've taken one of the most offensive ships in the Gallente frigate fleet and crippled it.

In addition, you've now set up a good number of Gallente T2 frigates to be suboptimal straight off of the T1 frigates. due to a lack of any missile boats. Gallente have always had a harder time due to mixed platform training for weapons (drones, guns, missiles) and now you take away one of the useful cross-train paths. Seriously, think about it.

+1 CCP. Reduce number of mixed weapons systems; reduce mixed platform training; get rid of missiles on Gallente hulls. Fire that missile loving traitor Jacques Roden!

Seriously, the only decent missile boat (besides the stealth bomber which stands apart like the Tier 3 BC) the Gallente have is the Lachesis - and it only uses three of the five high slots for missiles (which is fail btw). So there's no real progression for missiles anyways. No, the Celestis doesn't count - nobody puts missiles on them.

Finally, the only solution for GTFO situations is that the player has to accept the fact that he's going to be purchasing alot of drones. It's the cost of doing business as a Gallente pilot - along with higher hull prices across the board.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#68 - 2012-08-16 15:55:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.


It looks more like the Vexor and Dominix than the Exequror. Since the Gallente get shafted at everything how about making its logistics frigates and combat/logistics frigate? Rep bonus + drone damage bonus? If you do that to the Navitas that would be hot!
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#69 - 2012-08-16 15:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcel Devereux
X Gallentius wrote:

Finally, the only solution for GTFO situations is that the player has to accept the fact that he's going to be purchasing alot of drones. It's the cost of doing business as a Gallente pilot - along with higher hull prices across the board.


Not only purchasing lots of drones but going back to resupply quite often because he can't recall them fast enough. The lack of drone bay is a serious design flaw.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-08-16 16:02:55 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.


It looks more like the Vexor and Dominix than the Exequror. Since the Gallente get shafted at everything how about making its logistics frigates and combat/logistics frigate? Rep bonus + drone damage bonus? If you do that to the Navitas that would be hot!

That would be OP but so cool to see happen

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#71 - 2012-08-16 16:09:25 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.


It looks more like the Vexor and Dominix than the Exequror. Since the Gallente get shafted at everything how about making its logistics frigates and combat/logistics frigate? Rep bonus + drone damage bonus? If you do that to the Navitas that would be hot!

That would be OP but so cool to see happen


I would rather OP than subpar and useless.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#72 - 2012-08-16 16:12:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Kestrel:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level
Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M (+1), 2 L, 4 launchers
Fittings: 45 PWG (+15), 180 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+109) / 350(+37) / 350 (+84)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 165s (-22.5s)/ 2 (+0.667)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (+24) / 3.27(-0.6) / 1163000 / 3.56s (-0.65)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km (+10) / 620 (+155) / 5 (+2)
Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 38 (-9)
Cargo capacity: 160 (-145)


Let me make sure I understand this change. You're replacing the 10% kinetic damage bonus with a 10% missile velocity bonus and giving it an extra mid. I'd say that chances are the new Kestrel is inferior to the old one despite the extra mid and fittings. What do you say to a 5% ROF bonus over that 5% Damage bonus?

Also, please don't ruin the "Cyno Kessie". I don't have any particular love of the Kestrel for cynoing since I have cyno 5 on all my alts, but it's... history. And I'm sentimental. :)

Quote:

Tristan:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level
10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2)
Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-1)
Cargo capacity: 140


You know, I really expected the Navitas to be the drone boat. I'm really glad that we're getting a reasonable drone frigate, because it's totally different than the Atron and Incursus. However, this particular incarnation doesn't feel very compelling for some reason. Maybe it's the 40m^3 drone bay? Maybe it's my skepticism of the drone tracking bonus?

Comfort my fears: Have you tested whether this drone tracking speed bonus makes a difference with fast drones shooting fast ships with small hitboxes? What practical DPS difference can I expect when shooting an AB Slasher with a set of Warriors?

Quote:

Breacher:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 3 launchers, 0 Turrets (-1)
Fittings: 35 PWG (+4), 180 CPU (+45)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+149) / 350(+37) / 300 (+50)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 (+112.5)/ 150s (+9.37s)/ 2 (+0.667)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+16) / 3.16 (-0.62) / 1087000 (-100000) / 3.21s (-0.99)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 (+10) / 10 (+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km (+2.5) / 650 (+75) / 4 (+1)
Sensor strength: 8 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-5)
Cargo capacity: 175


This... is interesting. I admit that I was hoping to see all active tank bonuses go to that 10%/level the Incursus got, but I guess shields get the hilariously overpowered ASB and I shouldn't complain. I'm not sure which way I'd leap when presented with the speed of a Condor or a bonused medium ASB. I feel like the sig radius will tip me in favor of an ASB Condor though.

I expect that the two drones is actually makes for a DPS advantage over the Condor, but I think I'd still prefer to see them moved into a high + launcher.

But hell, I should just be glad you're buffing frigs. And even if they go live as you put here, I'm still enjoying the hell out of the Executioner. I'm sure I'll find a reason to like these guys. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#73 - 2012-08-16 16:14:03 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CCP Fozzie

What about the Inquisitor?

With ASBs as they are, I have a hard time not seeing this new Breacher dominating every other frig in its class. Have you tested this particular aspect yet?


The Executioner will destroy the Breacher.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Makalie
Frenzied Faoladh
#74 - 2012-08-16 16:14:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Oh dear god please, this. Logi frigates! Please!
And T1 logi cruisers, besides the Exequror, would be rad, though I suppose cross training up to that wasn't that bad.

I hope you brought enough ammunition.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#75 - 2012-08-16 16:17:14 UTC
Kethry Avenger wrote:

And can anybody please answer the question of the Amarr cap use bonus? There have been lots of people asking questions and few threads also.


What do you mean: the question of the Amarr cap use bonus? It's freaking awesome on ships with some kind of damage bonus!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#76 - 2012-08-16 16:19:27 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CCP Fozzie

Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work.

There are about 20 ships with this bonus and many of the T1 ships with it are just not competitive due to it. I've written some of my thoughts about it here. If you want to look at it, seeing the affected ships in a list makes you realize how far reaching this issue is.


I also want to mention that I'd really like the Inquisitor to be a Khanid ship (rocket damage bonus, armor resist bonus).


I really like the bonus on both the Executioner and Tormentor. The Executioner in particular. I wouldn't have been able to get either of these two kills without it last night:
- http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29491
- http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29487

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#77 - 2012-08-16 16:22:33 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.

I knew deep down in my gut where the navitas was headed, im not sure i like it, it was far more exciting when it was going to be a drone ship.


Don't be daft. As long as it doesn't suck that's infinitely superior.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-08-16 16:27:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.



hhhmmmmm,

I always thought a Destroyer hull would make a better light logistics ship. Firgates don't have enough slots and a far too flimsy with weak sensor strengths and poor tageting range to fill this role. A destroyer hull would fill it better and we need more destroyer huls with roles!

I think you're missing a trick by not giving Gallente a T1 Missile frigate and making the Navitas a drone boat..

The way I imagined the T1 frigate line up accross all races was something like this:

A Kite Missile boat **Bombardment** (Inquisitor / Kestral / Tristan / Breacher)
An EWAR boat (Crucifier / Griffin / Maulus / Vigil)
An Interceptor (Executioner / Condor / Atron / Slasher)
An Explorer or Scout (Magnate / Heron / Imicus / Probe)

Two Combat boats (High DPS and Tank) with racial flare
Punisher - Lasers
Tormentor - Lasers + Drones
Merlin - Hybrids
Bantam - Missiles
Navitas - Drones
Incursus - Hybrids
Rifter - Projectiles
Burst - Jack of all trades (Projectiles and Missiles with some Drones)
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-08-16 16:29:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CCP Fozzie

What about the Inquisitor?


It's getting a new role, to be unveiled along with the last set of frigs.


Inb4 logi frigs nooooooooooooo dont ruin frig fighting with logi frigsssssssssssssss

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-08-16 16:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Zoofelynn wrote:
How come "small" balance changes have to come along a big expansion? Why not just continuously balance and put these changes and other upcoming balance changes into small patches that can be applied during a regular maintenance?


I would very much like an answer to this as well. I seem to remember either CCP Ytterbium or someone else saying ship rebalance will be done in small steps using small groups to keep things reasonable. Now it looks like it'll be a 4-month break with no changes, and one huge mega-dump (albeit tested on SiSi) in Winter, including frigates, destroyers and possibly even come cruisers?

What changed between last iteration and now?

Quote:
To be fair, it doesn't take months to come up with the changes currently suggested. With this pace it's gonna take until 2020 before all ships have been looked at.


This too. Most of us expected drastic, sweeping changes. But so far, it's just tweaking same old paradigms. And while adding things like frigate and destroyer size drone boats is very welcome, it shouldn't take all that long. It's not like new modules or new hulls are being added - it's same old mush with different numbers.

Also nothing major is being changed. I had hoped for a major drone boat overhaul, for example. Abandoning the tired and broken (ever since subcaps got a 5-drone limit) mechanics of split weapon systems (hybrids and drones in roughly 50/50 ratio). But it seems all we're getting is a mini-Vexor, which is really nothing new, it just has to be scaled down.