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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

First post First post
Author
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#81 - 2012-08-16 16:31:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink

Gonna get replies posted to a bunch more of your questions and comments here soon, but have a meeting to run to. Expect walls of text in this thread later tonight.

I knew deep down in my gut where the navitas was headed, im not sure i like it, it was far more exciting when it was going to be a drone ship.


Don't be daft. As long as it doesn't suck that's infinitely superior.

-Liang

As soon as Fozzie mentioned they had new plans for the navitas I recallled whatt the csm mins said about wanting to do something with small and medium RR, that is when i realized we lost the navitas as a drone ship. I still dont like it, the Tristran could be a logi ship also, it will be getting bonuses that have no application to its t2 version.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-08-16 16:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Liang Nuren wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CCP Fozzie

Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work.

There are about 20 ships with this bonus and many of the T1 ships with it are just not competitive due to it. I've written some of my thoughts about it here. If you want to look at it, seeing the affected ships in a list makes you realize how far reaching this issue is.


I also want to mention that I'd really like the Inquisitor to be a Khanid ship (rocket damage bonus, armor resist bonus).


I really like the bonus on both the Executioner and Tormentor. The Executioner in particular. I wouldn't have been able to get either of these two kills without it last night:
- http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29491
- http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29487

-Liang


I agree, cap usage of lasers should not go up. What I'm suggesting is this.

Quote:
What I would do is just reducing laser cap usage by 50% and remove the -10% laser cap usage bonus, replacing it with a 5% damage per level on hulls that have no damage bonus. The ships that already have a damage bonus are reviewed individually, trying to give them a useful but not overpowered bonus:

(long list of ships and suggested bonuses follows)


More than anything I'm interested to hear some dev comments on this.
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-08-16 16:34:55 UTC
dont forget about destroyers,and caldari ship/missiles tweaks
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-08-16 16:35:15 UTC
Tristan's hybrid bonus make sense when you use smaller guns than 125mm to defend itself against fast moving targets...like drones and those T1 tackling frigates.

Those who are complaining about losing the "Cyno" Kestrel....you do know the Exploration Frigate revamp will still give you a T1 option for a suicide cyno run :P
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#85 - 2012-08-16 16:40:04 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:


I agree, cap usage of lasers should not go up. What I'm suggesting is this.

Quote:
What I would do is just reducing laser cap usage by 50% and remove the -10% laser cap usage bonus, replacing it with a 5% damage per level on hulls that have no damage bonus. The ships that already have a damage bonus are reviewed individually, trying to give them a useful but not overpowered bonus:

(long list of ships and suggested bonuses follows)


More than anything I'm interested to hear some dev comments on this.


The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#86 - 2012-08-16 16:40:37 UTC
Brunaburh wrote:


In addition, you've now set up a good number of Gallente T2 frigates to be suboptimal straight off of the T1 frigates. due to a lack of any missile boats. Gallente have always had a harder time due to mixed platform training for weapons (drones, guns, missiles) and now you take away one of the useful cross-train paths. Seriously, think about it.

To even touch this ship now you have to train a month of missile skills that have no bearing whatsoever to any other gallente frigate.


actually "gallente training" for subcapital t1 is "rather" easy with blaster(hybrids)/ drones and armor tank.
imagine training a minmatar character; you need projectiles, missiles, drones, armor & shield tank.
i do not see anything wrong when the combat philosophy of a race gets a bit more pronounced. this way you stop making every race the same.
just because there is one t1 gallente frig which uses light missiles and maybe rockets, why should you train every missile related skill? i like the philosophy of having the gallente frigs more hybrid and drone focusses and less using "foreign" weapons. this way you see, whats this race is all about and when moving past t1 and start specialising into t2 or broadening into other races you always can start training for the other toys. it may be a contestable opinion, but when specialising for a t2 ship, i find it acceptable to train for a "specialised" weapon type.

the main idea behind the bombers was not making them torpedo spitting missile boats, but have a platform for deploying bombs, which do not have much in common with missiles. it would be rather cool if only the caldari bomber would use torps and the other bombers would use large lasers/projectiles/ blasters.. heavily modified to make them only viable when shooting larger targets. like a penalty on signature radius.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#87 - 2012-08-16 16:40:40 UTC
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Tristan's hybrid bonus make sense when you use smaller guns than 125mm to defend itself against fast moving targets...like drones and those T1 tackling frigates.

Those who are complaining about losing the "Cyno" Kestrel....you do know the Exploration Frigate revamp will still give you a T1 option for a suicide cyno run :P


It's about nostalgia and history, not about having an effective cyno frigate.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#88 - 2012-08-16 16:42:45 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

the main idea behind the bombers was not making them torpedo spitting missile boats, but have a platform for deploying bombs, which do not have much in common with missiles. it would be rather cool if only the caldari bomber would use torps and the other bombers would use large lasers/projectiles/ blasters.. heavily modified to make them only viable when shooting larger targets. like a penalty on signature radius.


The funny thing about that is that the current bombers are modified in favor of having BETTER damage application (but not raw DPS) than battleships. And you're suggesting making the turret ones significantly worse? Heh.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2012-08-16 16:47:11 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.

/shrug

-Liang


Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#90 - 2012-08-16 16:47:29 UTC
So five tristans walked into a minor... And each dropped a sentry. That would be comedy gold to do at least one time.
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-08-16 17:03:08 UTC
* steals Laing's asb Executioner fit.
Aurum Gallente
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-08-16 17:13:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Aurum Gallente wrote:
I'm happy to see tristan like this but 3 med+2 light drones or one sentry in frigate class? It can kill any T1 cruiser or tier-3 BC. If you want to see powerful drone platform just change turret bonus to something useful like drone HP or stasis webifier range or armor resistances. I prefer 0 turrents and long webifier


It has 40m3 bay but only 25m3 bandwidth, so 5 light drones or one sentry.

I know it. I am Gallente and I don't know what for this tristan needs guns. It needs drone optimal bonus if you against webifier optimal bonus. Change turret's bonus to 2.5% and add drone optimal range 5% per lvl. Light drones have problems with too small optimal range with very high speed so tracking bonus not very useful for light drones.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#93 - 2012-08-16 17:15:37 UTC
I don't understand the hullabaloo over the Tristan. I flew it exclusively for near 4 months when I first started. It was a crap ship, the split bonuses meant I couldn't really do much dps. You either fit it for cruiser battling, or for drove fighting. Neither one was it particularly good at.

It had 1 drone. What is the point of that?

It is by far more focused and better as a ship than it was. What difference does it make if the Navitas is used as something else.

With the Incursus serving as the close range blaster ship, it makes sense that the other combat frigate would be the other Gallente play style of longer range and drones.

As for not having any entry missile ships. See Amarr, They don't get any missile ships until Assault Frigates, but no one bitched about that. Yes, training up a bomber from Cal/Min is less time, but so what. Training ANY Turret ship for Caldari means the same thing.

Also, you'll likely be getting a missile based destroyer platform, which makes a nice stepping stone as well so, don't count chickens before the've teircided themselves.

I agree on cap use argument.

I also agree on Minmatar having to train too many things, they should not be able to do everything. As it is, they get every single option with no downsides.

Bombers are fine as they are, leave them be. Every race has the same approximate bomber training, some just have it easier than others. Having the Tristan just means you have rockets/MLO trained to 3, not that you have all the support skills unless you fly the Tristan exclusively for 4 months straight, and even then I didn't have all the missile support skills.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Dock Workers
#94 - 2012-08-16 17:17:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

What I am saying is that the Navitas looks like a space fish like the Vexor and Dominix. The Tristan does not.


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink


FRIGATE LOGISTICS \o/

I thought that was the big reveal, then I read this, and I think you're dropping us hints :)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#95 - 2012-08-16 17:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.

/shrug

-Liang


Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.


I don't think those statistics really mean what you think they do. For starters, about half that list is meaningless because it simply represents what fleet doctrines are being used right now. I think that people are lemmings and game design shouldn't revolve around what any particular mouthpiece is telling people to fly.

Of the ships on that list which are potentially differentiable from fleet doctrines, I'd say that there's 6 Projectile ships, 2 Hybrid ships, and 2 Laser ships. Breaking those down a bit further, we see:
- BS: Nobody flies them outside of fleets. Whatever.
- BC: Hurricane, Tornado, Naga, Oracle (2 Proj, 1 Hybrid, 1 Laser)
- Cruiser: Zealot, Cynabal (1 Laser, 1 Projectile)
- Destroyer: Thrasher, Saber (2 Projectile, also this is meaningless as the destroyer rebalance has not yet arrived)
- Frig: Rifter, Merlin (1 Projectile, 1 Hybrid)

What I'm really seeing is Minmatar dominance via the Hurricane and Saber. And that's your argument that lasers need a massive across the board buff?

-Liang

Ed: I would accept an argument that the Tornado, Naga, and Zealot are fleet doctrines. I don't really keep track close enough to know. It shouldn't materially affect the argument though.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#96 - 2012-08-16 17:25:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

the main idea behind the bombers was not making them torpedo spitting missile boats, but have a platform for deploying bombs, which do not have much in common with missiles. it would be rather cool if only the caldari bomber would use torps and the other bombers would use large lasers/projectiles/ blasters.. heavily modified to make them only viable when shooting larger targets. like a penalty on signature radius.


The funny thing about that is that the current bombers are modified in favor of having BETTER damage application (but not raw DPS) than battleships. And you're suggesting making the turret ones significantly worse? Heh.

-Liang


as bombers are quite mobile thy can easily cut down transversal and with unmodified large turret they would roflstomp everything into oblivious. similar to talos and tornado.
it was just a fast idea, not to be taken too seriously ^^
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2012-08-16 17:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Liang Nuren wrote:


What I'm really seeing is Minmatar dominance via the Hurricane and Saber. And that's your argument that lasers need a massive across the board buff?

-Liang


I think we have very different ideas what massive means. Did you not read the link that I posted? Tell me:

A Tormentor with +7.5% tracking and +5% damage per level (and built-in -50% laser cap usage) would be massively more powerful than the same ship with -10% laser cap usage per level and +5% damage per level?

What about an Omen with +7.5% tracking and +5% rof (and built-in -50% laser cap usage)?

What about the drone legion subsystem? Would that be massively overpowered if the its only laser bonus, -10% cap usage per level was replaced with +5% damage per level?

What about the covert legion with the same problem?

What about the Retribution getting a 10% damage boost that replaces the +5% damage per level and -10% cap usage bonus? The ship currently has problems breaking 200 dps, can't fit a web and is the worst AF to engage bigger targets with.

What about the Absolution? Would a tracking bonus make it overpowered? I very much doubt it. It only has 3 mids, it should have tracking bonus anyways.

What about the Abaddon? Would it be massively overpowered if its cap lasted a few minutes more?

etc...
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#98 - 2012-08-16 17:36:19 UTC
Ok I gonna bring this up here, how many gallente pilots are tired of drone/hybrid combo ships. They are the only race that doesn't get seperate weapon platform ships. Every drone ship gets a hybrid bonus (myrmidon aside) it would be nice if the drone ships were drone ships and the hybrid ships were hybrid ships. Give the drone ships drone hp bonuses, tracking bonuses, optimum range bonuses, damage bonuses, mwd speed bonuses or logistic/ewar bonuses.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#99 - 2012-08-16 17:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

I think we have very different ideas what massive means. Did you not read the link that I posted? Tell me:

A Tormentor with +7.5% tracking and +5% damage per level (and built-in -50% laser cap usage) would be massively more powerful than the same ship with -10% laser cap usage per level and +5% damage per level?


Heh, yeah it really would be. I think you should go read the old threads about the Crusader to see why this is true.

Quote:

What about the Retribution getting a 10% damage boost that replaces the +5% damage per level and -10% cap usage bonus? The ship currently has problems breaking 200 dps, can't fit a web and is the worst AF to engage bigger targets with.


If you have problems with the Retribution, I literally have no idea what the hell is wrong with you.

Quote:

What about the Abaddon? Would it be massively overpowered if its cap lasted a few minutes more?


I'm going to go with yes.

The rest of the stuff that you pointed out is pretty much you pointing at a ship that's horrifically broken for other reasons and attributing it to the cap use bonus.

-Liang

Ed: Really, saying that the Omen is broken because of the cap use bonus instead of it's utterly **** fittings is just mindblowing and destroys your entire argument.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Azual Skoll
The Altruist
#100 - 2012-08-16 17:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Azual Skoll
Assuming for a moment frigate logistics is what we're considering, there are a couple of a pretty big problems to consider.

What exactly does a logistics frigate rep? If it's repping cruisers or larger then there's no real advantage over a logistics cruiser. So I assume they're for repping other frigates.

Even if you take locking out of the equation (for example by assuming these logistics frigs could all but insta-lock), there's usually a delay between a ship taking damage and the logistics ships stemming the bleeding. Excluding 1v1 encounters though, a frigate taking fire in PVP is usually in one of two situations: it's either evading all or most of the incoming damage, or it's dying - usually very quickly. The window available for a logistics ship to lock that frigate and begin repairing it is very slim indeed, to the point where most ships will be dead before reps land in any real fight (especially with armour reps, which land at the end of their cycle).

In addition to that, the low EHP and resists of your typical t1 frigate (potentially excluding merlins and punishers) means that reps simply aren't that effective on them. High resists are all but essential for remote repair to work, and it's really quite hard to fit a frigate in that way. Additionally, fights involving larger ships are likely to see frigates volleyed straight through their primary shield/armour buffer, meaning no amount of reps can actually keep them afloat. Assault frigs are tough enough for it to work, but inventing a new ship class purely to repair assault frigs seems a little unnecessary.

A possible alternative which would come in really handy, would be a t1 boosting frigate able to fit a single gang link, in a similar vein to the t1 battlecruisers. Right now using gang links is something that a frigate-only fleet simply can't do, unless it's willing to cut it's mobility significantly (since cruisers warp at half the speed of frigates, or slower if compared to t2 frigates) - in other words, sacrifice the main reason to use a frig fleet in the first place. Being able to receive the benefits of a gang link would allow frigate fleets to become a lot more flexible, and level the playing field between a frigate fleet and a gang of larger ships. Obviously, this would work even better if combined with a change to make warfare links on-grid only, but that's a separate conversation entirely! Blink

Other than that, I love what you're doing with balancing so far (even if it does mean I have to rewrite half of my blog!). I like that you've moved away from giving every race a missile frig and a drone frig, that felt a little too homogeneous and I think this way you're maintaining more racial flavour while still giving new players some genuine choice. Keep it up!

Tusker, Small Gang PVPer, and author of The Altruist (guides to PVP in Eve) Formerly Director of Agony Unleashed's PVP-Uni