EVE General Discussion

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I think this mechanic is made with the best of intentions to improve lowsec, but unfortunately getting rid of the cliche static gatecamp just won't cut it. The mechanic seems to be poorly thought out - every change in eve is adapted to quickly and effectively by the members of the eve community and this will be no different. I can imagine now the off grid gatecamps with massive DPS ships and the evolution of the fastest ganks in history, and of course the end of the traditionally easy ways into low - i.e frigates and cov ops ships. I see vast numbers of systems turned into massive games of hit-and run chicken, where the fights are fought in 30 seconds or not fought at all. And I see the lone baiting interceptor able to kill anything in under 3 minutes. Bait, point, wait, scoop loot.
Lowsec needs love, but you're just trying to friend-zone us!



Shameless self promotion: See https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1426523#post1426523 for my lowsec carebear survival guide!!

ganked

This is a rehash of my posts in C & P (sorry for the wall of text in advance)

I have given this alot of thought in the last day or so and, initially, I was totally outraged like a lot of other pirates. Then I realized that this isn't about piracy as much as its about gate camps. CCP hasn't come out and said this but the psychological barrier of gate camps and piracy is literally costing them money and players. I know people who have never played eve and part of the reason they don't is because of pirates and gate camps.....and they have never even seen one. I think its stupid, but if a lot of people really feel that way then I guess something has to change in order to expand the game at large. Keep in mind I think this is a psychological issue, not an actual game mechanic issue.

During fanfest I remember them sort of harping on where people live in the game. They showed a chart of the Lowsec, Highsec, Null and Wormhole populations. Then they went on to talk about how 'we' needed to be nicer to the new players because....well they quit. And think about it who do they run into first? Pirates....and we are merciless. So the perception is that you can't even get in the door of lowsec cause Pirates are sitting on the gates 24/7...which is flat out not true. CCP, clearly, wants to remove that psychological barrier by removing gate camping. It think its that simple.

I'm not a big gate camper myself. I'd rather catch them with their pants down at a customs office or in an Anom/site. If there are more people that 'feel' like they can come to lowsec then I can do that more often. I don't think this idea is fleshed out and, therefore I do not support it. Yet, I think I understand where they are comming from. Its about money, increasing the population and keeping people in the game....which goes back to money.

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Who is paying these people? Isn't it us? The fact that some people, including myself, are enraged by the fact that something NO ONE thought was broken is being tinkered with (even in theory) shouldn't surprise anyone. I think CCP needs to address the actual issue....though I'm not sure they can. Not because they aren't smarting enough, but because I don't think its something that can be coded away. You can't remove fear and stigma with code and THAT is the problem with lowsec. Yes you can change the mechanic but not the mindset. Thats just not how it works. People will still be afraid to go to lowsec and pirates will still prey on those that are inexperienced in combat. The only way to get that experience is to do it.

If the CSM or CCP wants to improve lowsec then that is what they have to address. The best way to do that is to educate the population. Put out a guide. A step by step "read this and you will survive" guide with CCP's big fat logo on it. Do that and they will come in droves. Your issue is that new players are not transitioning to lowsec or beyond. Then teach them how. You made the is game wonderfully complicated...painfully complicated. When you added the turtorials I was impressed. Implementing the skills and certs system was a brilliant move. This falls well short of that brilliance.

Don't nerf the game, buff the players. Sponsor the creation of a complete and comprehensive combat guide that will be available to every player. Gather all the minds from say EVE U, RvB and other and make that knowledge available to everyone. That is the only REAL way to address your long term concerns CCP. Invest in your players, don't nerf the product.

Its about psychological impact of piracy. I do not think that can be overstated. I think CCP HAS to be called out on this. Because, if I'm right, then a major drive to educate the next generation of players on how to pvp is the only answer. Not just the mechanic of pvp, but solid tactics based on experience. I also think its key that CCP put their stamp on it and post it as a pdf. Without that its just another random guide that won't be taken seriously. It needs to be taken as seriously as any other "official" guide. It should be about pvp combat ONLY and should be clearly marked as such. I truly believe that is were they should put there efforts. We can't allow this game to become wow. We have the best players on the planet because of the challenging enviroment presented here. Give them the tools they need and they will step up.

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Here's a prime example of what im talking about:

http://www.eve-guides.com/
-everything you need to carebear it up....nothing on pvp.

-http://www.eveproguides.com
videos, but you have to give them an email for the first vid....not sure what that leads too.

-Youtube
Lots and lots of videos, but most are pirates and experienced pvpers and would probably intimidate the hell out of a new player. The ones that are teaching you stuff are a bit hard to follow imo.

-Isk guide
if you read it you know it speaks in generalizations on the subject of pvp and isnt that helpful

CCP-
A PI vid and a exploration vid and they do both poorly.

-The Beginners Guide to Piracy
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=936500
Probably the best guide out there and its STILL incomplete

We can do better than this and CCP needs to have a direct hand in it to see that its completed. That is if they are serious about promoting EVE and solving the lowsec issue. You have to get the information in the hands of the players. As said above not everyone has the time or the motivation to seek this stuff out. Make getting the info easier, not the game.

Sooo...sentry guns now fire on you for just having negative SS in low sec?

Yeah, do that I dare ya. Your pay check is more important to you than your game is to me. Any more brilliant changes to capture the inevitable FLOOD of new money after the upcoming BLOCKBUSTER DUST release that will have people flocking to low sec to earn more aurum to buy more monocles?...what do you guys have a team of pot-smoking monkeys working on this?

So nothing will change then?

I think we all need to calm down here and just take a second to read and take in Malcanis' signature.

why not?

When in another thread I mentioned about the big EvE game mechanic defect of having all the PvP stuck at gates, stations and few other places, it opened people's eyes enough that some new threads have born talking about it.

Now let me mention another eye opener and this one is really a BIG eye opener for everybody.


"Why don't players come to low sec and risk, given the rewards?"
Is it the stigma? Apparently it is, but that's not the true or most important deal breaker.

"Would increase reward make more guys come to low sec?"
No. Don't believe me, try tripling the reward, not a dog will bother to come anyway.

So why, oh why low sec is "empty"?


The answer is in the sheep.

The fictional sheep needed to come to low sec with a promise of untold riches just does not exist. Not on the scale to make it relevant. In the past years ago there were some, but today's players are not the 2004 players.


The hi sec cattle - so to speak - is not the kind of sheep compatible with going to low sec. Or null sec for the matter.
The do NOT play to risk. They play to "spend free time doing something fun / making me rich".
They "play EvE for the "unknown" (notice the ""), for the flavour of impending risk. Impending but NEVER risk that becomes true. When they fail at that and actually face risk and loss, they are so shocked and annoyed that :tears: and :smack: happen.
They never, never really wanted to play a risk vs reward game, just a "risk scented vs reward game". Stop a second and ponder on the cascading consequences of this statement.
Given the hard choice they will always go for less reward if risk ever actually risks becoming true. No amount of reward will do, unless you really risk breaking the game in 2 months for how huge it would have to be.

In real life it'd be the politically correct middle class sneaking at softcore "sensual" (yay censorship) magazines. Half nipple is the maximum they self allow to trespass their morals with.
They are just not going above that, they will never go out to the full thing.

Neither you nor CCP can do anything to change them, consider them "lost". They bring in a large number of good subs but they are in their own universe. A minority may be teached, may be convinced with huge efforts, with the "courses" spoken about above but it's still a statistically irrelevant nor staying number.

The kind of cattle you need is enterprising cattle, people willing to play a risk vs reward game. They are not the guys above, they are just not the same people.

And here comes the catch. Even among pirates, only a fraction are ready to play a risk vs reward game (how many spend their day just "PvE farming a gate" with overhelming force, ready to hightail if any danger / organized bunch comes?
Same for null sec players, so many are just there because the blob gives them their safety feeling.

Out of the remaining very few players not identified by the above, how many are willing to be a sheep?

Because here's the underlying huge issue, if you really are a risk vs reward player you are probably NOT a sheep. You are the guy playing sheep just to cyno in 4 ships when the loner pirate warps close.

Risk vs reward players are the only ones who could want to risk for reward (doh!) yet this is typical of players who don't have the "victim" mindset and don't easily fall prey.

Basically, those who are in for the risk vs reward game are only the PvPers or those who are so much ready for PvP that they are basically equivalent to PvPers and scare PvPers away (EvE PvPers often times won't want to face a "fair fight").
Another negative factor is that "PvP ready" people don't really love to PvE in pimpboats all day long and become a target. They rather prefer being the ones killing the totally few guys who do. Often times they just don't like PvE at all, hard to play target when you are really only in for the PvP.

So what to do? FW is what comes close to the profile of a risk vs reward players (minus the PvE FW site orbiters of course).
FW has to be iterated again and again till some mechanic makes it *possible* for risk vs reward people to engage in something worth killing.

Forget having the juicy hi sec sheep easily be baited by "rewards" and willing to come to you as sacrifical lambs, all you'll get are guys with sharp teeth who are smart enough to not be found by you when you want your fill of PvP on your terms.

Yeah but you know, those who will come, won't be in a corp called "Fluffybunnies indy miners" but in some "Predators are us YARR!" (you know it's not unknown to you ) with all skulls and bones on the corp logo.

I don't see them being abundant at all.

I will not unsubscribe.

My advice to CCP Greyscale: Don't listen to the usual whiners and "I will unsubscribe" victims... but do listen to this guy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1739951#post1739951. He has a point.