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New dev blog: Ship balancing summer update

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SabuMaru ICE
DLM Enterprises
The Serenity Initiative
#901 - 2012-07-27 13:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: SabuMaru ICE
vorminar wrote:

i think the new part of the cargo hold is for ore only and it will have a separate (normal) cargo hold as well


on SiSi some of the changes are already LIVE
and i can tell u yes there are a cargo hold (500M3) and an OREhold ( mack has biggest @ 25.000m3 )

nice one is ...

A skiff can have over 140.000 EHP ... new king of 0.0 ?

Hulk has same yield as it has now, so say 100%
stats are at the moment :

Hulk: Fleet Miner
- 100% Yield
- 7.500m3 OREhold
- ~15.000 EHP max
- 25m3 Drone ( 5drones)
- 500m3 normal

Mackinaw Solo Specialist
- 75% Yield
- 25.000 m3 OREhold
- ~30.000 EHP
- 20m3 Drone ( 4drones)
- 500m3 normal

Skiff King of 0.0
- 75% Yield
- 20.000m3 OREhold
- 100.000+ EHP (easily )
- 15m3 Drone ( 3drones)
- 500m3 normal



ICE and MEROX bonus are from RIG's
vorminar
Vindicator Corporation
#902 - 2012-07-27 16:08:04 UTC
hmm hope the hulks ore carrying capability are raised any more bonus's to it and ill do more than that in 1 hit Twisted
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#903 - 2012-07-29 07:49:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Mackinaw has super small capacitor.
Only 500 units, really ?

I suggest you increase it to 1000.
It is a cruiser sized vessel anyway so it should have more than 500.
Either increase capacitor or decrease capacitor use for miners even more.


Also i'd like to have a sound notification of my cargohold being full.
Because i get sound notification when asteroid delpeats and when my capacitor is empy, but not when my cargohold is full or if i somehow overload a ship's cargohold and can't undock.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#904 - 2012-07-29 12:08:57 UTC
SabuMaru ICE wrote:
- snip -
stats are at the moment :

Hulk: Fleet Miner
- 100% Yield
- 7.500m3 OREhold
- ~15.000 EHP max
- 25m3 Drone ( 5drones)
- 500m3 normal

Mackinaw Solo Specialist
- 75% Yield
- 25.000 m3 OREhold
- ~30.000 EHP
- 20m3 Drone ( 4drones)
- 500m3 normal

Skiff King of 0.0
- 75% Yield
- 20.000m3 OREhold
- 100.000+ EHP (easily )
- 15m3 Drone ( 3drones)
- 500m3 normal - snip -

Drone Bay size: I was just on SiSI and the Hulk and Mac still have 50m3 drone space, Skiff 15m3.

I may have missed some proposal of drone bay size. I hope they are not planning what SabuMaru posted, this would be bad.

The Hulk might make sense as you could deploy a full flight of mining drones and, if in fleet as intended, you won't need the protection from ratz. On a Mack, it would be a disaster. On a Skiff, only 3 light drones just seems stupid. What are you supposed to do with only three drones?

Also, I said the day the new ORE ships went onto SiSi that the mack is seriously cap and CPU constrained. This needs some review. I'm okay with difficult fittings, and I understand that the constraints are there to force a choice between tank and yield. But the Mack is just impossible at this point. It can't fit a fully active 4-mid-slot buffer+resist tank. You have to use a passive component somewhere. This seems to defeat it's intended role as a soloist.
Drumar Rotineque
Norfolk N Wayman
#905 - 2012-07-29 13:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Drumar Rotineque
Kor'o Yr'Y'eldi wrote:
Wenron wrote:
One technical note:

Damping - reducing an effect, or, in the world of controls, minimizing overshoot.

Dampening - getting something wet.

There, I've finally said it. This has been annoying me for a looooooong time.

*IRL mechanical engineer*


Thank god someone else noticed that. Lol


I've been loling about this! Your definition of dampening is incomplete, it also means to deaden or resist and does fit. But you, as an intelligent mechanical engineer should know, that both words are derived from the same word, damp. It's not just about water
Kaycerra
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#906 - 2012-07-29 17:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaycerra
SabuMaru ICE wrote:
vorminar wrote:

i think the new part of the cargo hold is for ore only and it will have a separate (normal) cargo hold as well


on SiSi some of the changes are already LIVE
and i can tell u yes there are a cargo hold (500M3) and an OREhold ( mack has biggest @ 25.000m3 )

nice one is ...

A skiff can have over 140.000 EHP ... new king of 0.0 ?

Hulk has same yield as it has now, so say 100%
stats are at the moment :

Hulk: Fleet Miner
- 100% Yield
- 7.500m3 OREhold
- ~15.000 EHP max
- 25m3 Drone ( 5drones)
- 500m3 normal

Mackinaw Solo Specialist
- 75% Yield
- 25.000 m3 OREhold
- ~30.000 EHP
- 20m3 Drone ( 4drones)
- 500m3 normal

Skiff King of 0.0
- 75% Yield
- 20.000m3 OREhold
- 100.000+ EHP (easily )
- 15m3 Drone ( 3drones)
- 500m3 normal



ICE and MEROX bonus are from RIG's



Nope.

We've already had someone outline the difference in yields, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=138155&find=unread

And they are not 100/75/75. They are: Hulk 100%, Mackinaw 86%, Skiff 79%. Additionally, Ice bonuses also come from the ship, and its inherent ability to fit ice miners. The hulk will mine ice the fastest.

Furthermore, yes, the skiff gets a big buffer, but it does NOT get a massive active tank, which is what is important for solo mining in 0.0. Additionally, yield is still king, in 0.0. Buffer is not very useful in 0.0. Its pretty near impossible to get caught by pvpers, with your scouts up, as long as you warp off once you see them next door, or warp out of your hidden belt with a bubble on the gate the moment they enter system.

The REAL roles are:

Hulk: Max Yield, Fleet Miner, 0.0 only, best with a hauler
Mackinaw: Haul it yourself king, Good balance for not getting ganked as often in highsec, nice middleground.
Skiff: Empire Publord Miner: Mediocre yield, but what do bots care about yield when they can't be easily ganked anymore?
Annie Freemont
Doomheim
#907 - 2012-07-29 22:44:20 UTC
What was the reason why the hulk lost 500m3 from the capacity of 8000m3? The ship is the largest of the barges, yet only has 500m3 more capacity than the hull it comes from.

Yes, I am an alt.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#908 - 2012-07-30 13:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Scrapyard Bob
If the barges/exhumers are going to see such a large increase in their ore bay, then the Orca needs its ore bay raised as well.

Orca - ore bay is currently 50k m3

That should be raised to at least 100k m3 and possibly into the 200k m3 range.

Rorqual's ore bay should probably be boosted from 250k up to 400-500k m3.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#909 - 2012-07-30 13:16:08 UTC
Annie Freemont wrote:
What was the reason why the hulk lost 500m3 from the capacity of 8000m3? The ship is the largest of the barges, yet only has 500m3 more capacity than the hull it comes from.


The bigger problem with the 500 m3 cargo bay is trying to carry T2 mining crystals, each of which is 50 m3.

The cargo bay sizes should be (# of strip miner slots x 500 m3) for each hull. That allows you to carry 9 or 10 T2 mining crystals for each strip miner, which gives you spares, alternate ore crystals.

Or cut the size of T2 mining crystals down to 10 or 15 m3 per unit instead of 50 m3.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#910 - 2012-07-30 13:46:37 UTC
Drone bays are too small, what are miners supposed to do with 3x scout drones? Wait until hisec rats die of boredom? Question

Last time I flew a unskilled miner, her 5x T1 drones were taking way long to kill rats in a 0.6 system. I think that 25 m2 should be the minimum for ships intended to solo.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#911 - 2012-07-30 13:49:40 UTC
Annie Freemont wrote:
What was the reason why the hulk lost 500m3 from the capacity of 8000m3? The ship is the largest of the barges, yet only has 500m3 more capacity than the hull it comes from.



The New Hulk is intended to work in a fleet with hauler support.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#912 - 2012-07-30 16:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs won’t affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size.


    • I really like this idea. Will this"HULKS will be used best in fleets" initiative also carry some changes to the HULKS fleet support ships.

    For example what about increasing the size of the ore hold in the ORCA and Roqual. Since the hulk will be able to hold even less than it does now(with cargo expanders as many miners choose to fit it) The modified ore/cargo size may not allow them to keep mining without jet canning until the hauler returns. larger ORE holds in these ships would off set that.

    How about a new mining support industrial. pure hauler ship(even freighter size) with massive ore hold that can be loaded in space unlike the current freighter. Give it a small regular cargo hold for hauling supplies for the fleet but mostly it is used for hauling the massive amounts of ore generated by a decent size HULK fleet. Even just a new standard industrial T1 ORE ship with a 50,000m3 ore hold would help with logistics. Warping the ORCA back and fourth makes it hard to manage fleet boosts. rather than using 2 ORCA's.

    I see it as a standard fleet of HULKS supported by an ORCA and a ore hauler could operate in high sec. While Larger null sec fleet with Roqual support using a ORCA as a hauler. either way the ORCA could greatly befit from a larger ore hold. 50,000m3 is small considering you can expand the normal cargo easily to 89,000m3. Even completely remove the ORCA's normal cargo hold. Give it a 100,000m3 ore hold and 60,000 corp hanger up from 40,000m3 corp hanger capacity. A little less total capacity than it has now but would also be freeing up the rig slots from cargo expanders.
    Bugsy VanHalen
    Society of lost Souls
    #913 - 2012-07-30 17:08:05 UTC
    Scrapyard Bob wrote:
    If the barges/exhumers are going to see such a large increase in their ore bay, then the Orca needs its ore bay raised as well.

    Orca - ore bay is currently 50k m3

    That should be raised to at least 100k m3 and possibly into the 200k m3 range.

    Rorqual's ore bay should probably be boosted from 250k up to 400-500k m3.

    yeah, yeah,

    This is a no brainer. If HULKS are to be significantly more efficient in fleets that the fleet support ships absolutely need to be able to collect what they are putting out. HULK fleets generally have 3-10 HULKs. There are larger fleets but a single ORCA should easily support 4-6 HULKS.

    I also agree that the absolute minimum drone bay size has to be 25m3. I mean come on. Even the huge ehp procurer will eventually be whittled down by rats with only 3 light drones for defense. This is not a protect me while AFK issue. You should not be forced to warp off when ATK because belt rats spawned and you have no way of killing them. You need to be able to kill the rats to continue mining, not just tank through a suicide gank. The procurer/skiff is suposed to be the high EHP ship which can solo mine in null?? It should have at least 25m3 drone bay, 5 light drones. But really should be much much more. 5 light drones is not near enough defense even for just rats in null sec. while the Retriever/Mack should have at least 50m3 to put out 5 lights, or 5 mining drones or give up the mining drones to bring 5 medium drones. The Covetor/HULK being the highest yield should also have the room to bring 5 mining drones and 5 light drones. If they add medium and heavy mining drones than the hulk should have 125m3 drone bay to put out 5 heavy mining drones. This is not just about defense, you need to keep mining drones as an option while still bring some combat drones for defense. the smallest drone hold should actually be 50m3 so you could choose between bringing 5 light drones and 5 mining drones, or 5 medium drones. The high EHP barges/exhumers should be able to bring larger drones for better defense. While the high yield barges/exhumers should be able to bring the right drones to max out yield. I am sure I read somewhere about medium and large mining drones being added. What ships would use these if Exhumers can't? Are they supposed to be for mining with a carrier?
    El'ismhur Khunsiu
    Les chevaliers de l'ordre
    Goonswarm Federation
    #914 - 2012-07-31 06:08:48 UTC
    Scrapyard Bob wrote:
    If the barges/exhumers are going to see such a large increase in their ore bay, then the Orca needs its ore bay raised as well.

    Orca - ore bay is currently 50k m3

    That should be raised to at least 100k m3 and possibly into the 200k m3 range.

    Rorqual's ore bay should probably be boosted from 250k up to 400-500k m3.


    Yes completly true. We need to increase the ore bay for orca and rorqual.
    Mechael
    Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
    #915 - 2012-07-31 06:51:25 UTC
    El'ismhur Khunsiu wrote:
    Scrapyard Bob wrote:
    If the barges/exhumers are going to see such a large increase in their ore bay, then the Orca needs its ore bay raised as well.

    Orca - ore bay is currently 50k m3

    That should be raised to at least 100k m3 and possibly into the 200k m3 range.

    Rorqual's ore bay should probably be boosted from 250k up to 400-500k m3.


    Yes completly true. We need to increase the ore bay for orca and rorqual.



    If you give a mouse a cookie ...

    Decrease the regular cargo capacity if you're going to increase the ore bay on the orca/rorq. Corp hangars are fine as they are.

    Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
    Blastcaps Madullier
    Handsome Millionaire Playboys
    Sedition.
    #916 - 2012-07-31 11:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Blastcaps Madullier
    Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
    Drone bays are too small, what are miners supposed to do with 3x scout drones? Wait until hisec rats die of boredom? Question

    Last time I flew a unskilled miner, her 5x T1 drones were taking way long to kill rats in a 0.6 system. I think that 25 m2 should be the minimum for ships intended to solo.


    Get T2 drones they make a hell of a differance.

    and I really hope that was a typo on drone bay size of the hulk on sisi, hope it's still 50M3 and NOT 25M3
    Infinite Force
    #917 - 2012-07-31 15:57:48 UTC
    Scrapyard Bob wrote:
    Annie Freemont wrote:
    What was the reason why the hulk lost 500m3 from the capacity of 8000m3? The ship is the largest of the barges, yet only has 500m3 more capacity than the hull it comes from.


    The bigger problem with the 500 m3 cargo bay is trying to carry T2 mining crystals, each of which is 50 m3.

    The cargo bay sizes should be (# of strip miner slots x 500 m3) for each hull. That allows you to carry 9 or 10 T2 mining crystals for each strip miner, which gives you spares, alternate ore crystals.

    Or cut the size of T2 mining crystals down to 10 or 15 m3 per unit instead of 50 m3.

    Crystal sizes are currently 15 & 25 m3 each - 1/2 the size of what they used to be. However, it's still not properly balanced. There are two other threads - one in the Test Server feedback and one in S&I that are currently discussing these changes too.

    I haven't looked today (at the time of this posting) to see if any further updates have been made on SiSi.

    HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

    http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #918 - 2012-08-01 23:04:45 UTC
    anyone else notice the retriever only has 1 midslot when mac has 4?

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Merritoff
    Zod's Minions
    #919 - 2012-08-02 01:40:13 UTC
    I am assuming that the Mining Drone bonus will eventually be removed from Vexor and Arbitrator cruisers? Plus the updates that in recently history, mining drones are given bonus by the Drone Navigation module. Can there be mining drone bonuses on the Barges now?

    The Mining Upgrades skill only operates when Mining Upgrade modules are installed. In the current climate, not using rig, mid and low slots for defense is an invitation to disaster. Can this skill be modified to the same behavior as Weapon Upgrades?
    Overs
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #920 - 2012-08-03 13:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Overs
    Why not buff ore yields for the higher end minerals instead of mining ship buffs? For example instead of processing 333 units of Veldspar into 1000 units of tritanium, change the refining rules so that 250 units of Veldspar refine into 1000 units of tritanium, or have 333 units of Veldspar process into 1250 units of tritanium.

    Also why not exclude the MLU cpu penalty from exhumers and mining barges or have it not apply to strip miners?