These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Otrovakruf
Dynaverse Omnicorp
#821 - 2011-10-11 07:35:57 UTC
There is one rule that everybody, except a few, seems to have forgotten!
The most important rule of all!

If you can't afford to loose it, don't fly it!

and that goes for all ship classes and pilots. So stop complaining about you 80-120bil Titan or 20 something bil SC.

Your playing eve, Ships die, they are still gonna be hard to kill, but atleast we small guys have a chance to kill you now.

Good job CCP
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#822 - 2011-10-11 07:37:28 UTC
Psymn wrote:
Anile8er wrote:
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?



Yes if CCP took ECM drones or Warrirors II's from your Abaddon a single dramiel would probably hold you down forever.


A dram fitted for cepting can 99% outrun ec-300's and 100% outrun warriors.


Sure guys SC's are expensive. Stop thinking about the hole in your wallet and start thinking about gameplay. Thats a bit harsh i know but maybe you all have milked the flavor-of-the-last-2-years and now have to learn to protect against their new weaknesses?

That was a rhetorical question btw. I have a feeling that caps will still be rarely deployed in low-sec off station since like has been said, supers can still make short work of them.
Only difference is that someone might lose a super or two due to their expectation that with a large price tag comes immunity to risk.


Wow.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#823 - 2011-10-11 07:40:24 UTC
Otrovakruf wrote:
There is one rule that everybody, except a few, seems to have forgotten!
The most important rule of all!

If you can't afford to loose it, don't fly it!

and that goes for all ship classes and pilots. So stop complaining about you 80-120bil Titan or 20 something bil SC.

Your playing eve, Ships die, they are still gonna be hard to kill, but atleast we small guys have a chance to kill you now.

Good job CCP


I can afford to loose my Nyx... thats why i use it. It's more that CCP is making my Nyx useless other than killing caps, and more so useless to me because I am not in a giant blob alliance, and I cant change into another ship.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#824 - 2011-10-11 07:41:24 UTC
ITT: Crying nullbears grieving for their "IWIN!!!!111oneone!!1" buttons.

Adapt and evolve, or GTFO.

Ni.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#825 - 2011-10-11 07:42:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
What I am saying here is that alliances with massive amounts of low SP toons will be able to completely dominate high SP toons
This is a good thing. SP is not a measurement of power — we are not playing an XP/Level/Class game here.



Then why doesn't everyone get max skills from day 1 ? SP is a measurement of power. Thinking it isn't, is insanity. Given that if two players are max skilled at flying a hurricane it comes down to skill and fittings. If one player is max skilled and the other has barely enough SP to fly the ship, how can you say that SP is not a measurement of power in a situation like that ?

Not only does SP affect what ships you can fly but it effects just about every modification you put on said ship.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#826 - 2011-10-11 07:45:21 UTC
Otrovakruf wrote:
There is one rule that everybody, except a few, seems to have forgotten!
The most important rule of all!

If you can't afford to loose it, don't fly it!

and that goes for all ship classes and pilots. So stop complaining about you 80-120bil Titan or 20 something bil SC.

Your playing eve, Ships die, they are still gonna be hard to kill, but atleast we small guys have a chance to kill you now.

Good job CCP


So you obviously assume that because super cap pilots are pissed that they can't afford to lose one ? That is laughable. I'm sure there are some that can't but many can afford to replace them. I have no issues about losing a ship in this game. It is when CCP makes them worthless to own that people start getting upset about it.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#827 - 2011-10-11 07:46:38 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
ITT: Crying nullbears grieving for their "IWIN!!!!111oneone!!1" buttons.

Adapt and evolve, or GTFO.




Here is an idea. Go macro in your Orca and hulk toons and STFU. Leave the topic to people who actually have pvp experience.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#828 - 2011-10-11 07:47:36 UTC
i guess my biggest complaint with the super carriers was their ability to just MOW though the sov structures like butter.

I though this was the primary task of dreadknots.

So now the only use for the deadknot is to just shoot Towers.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Psymn
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#829 - 2011-10-11 07:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Psymn
Anile8er wrote:
Otrovakruf wrote:
There is one rule that everybody, except a few, seems to have forgotten!
The most important rule of all!

If you can't afford to loose it, don't fly it!

and that goes for all ship classes and pilots. So stop complaining about you 80-120bil Titan or 20 something bil SC.

Your playing eve, Ships die, they are still gonna be hard to kill, but atleast we small guys have a chance to kill you now.

Good job CCP


I can afford to loose my Nyx... thats why i use it. It's more that CCP is making my Nyx useless other than killing caps, and more so useless to me because I am not in a giant blob alliance, and I cant change into another ship.



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10494486

No more falcon kills? Sorry bro
Sigras
Conglomo
#830 - 2011-10-11 07:48:19 UTC
ToXicPaIN wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Joe Censored wrote:
So now a single sabre can solo hold a titan hostage for 23 hours straight, no way for a titan to kill it, or escape, in pretty much any circumstance.

Something seriously wrong with that.
Yes there is something seriously wrong with that: the titan pilot's corp/alliance. They need to be fired from the job.


Ok let me throw up a senario here. Tell me what you think.

TEST rolls into a system with a 200 man subcap fleet. The alliance that owns the system can field a maximum of 80 pilots. Currently they have a chance to defend themselves because we'll say they can field 6 Super carriers and 12 Carriers. After this patch, TEST can roll into that system and there is really very little the smaller alliance can do about it. The capitals become all but useless. The cycle times on capital reps make it stupid to choose them over logistics ships. So all in all, they lose everything because the people that don't have them are upset.


Welcome to "Drake Online"

First of all, drakes can still be hit by the nerfed fighters because theyre still freaking huge.

Secondly, that scenario goes more like this:

TEST rolls into a system with a 200 man subcap fleet. The alliance that owns the system can field a maximum of 80 pilots. Currently they all stay logged off or in station because they know as soon as they deploy their 6 Super carriers and 12 Carriers they'll get ganked by 5x their number of supercaps

After the patch . . . pretty much the same thing happens
Sigras
Conglomo
#831 - 2011-10-11 07:50:12 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Otrovakruf wrote:
There is one rule that everybody, except a few, seems to have forgotten!
The most important rule of all!

If you can't afford to loose it, don't fly it!

and that goes for all ship classes and pilots. So stop complaining about you 80-120bil Titan or 20 something bil SC.

Your playing eve, Ships die, they are still gonna be hard to kill, but atleast we small guys have a chance to kill you now.

Good job CCP


I can afford to loose my Nyx... thats why i use it. It's more that CCP is making my Nyx useless other than killing caps, and more so useless to me because I am not in a giant blob alliance, and I cant change into another ship.

Oh no! you'll be forced to use the supercarrier to do what it was originally designed to do! the horror! the horror!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#832 - 2011-10-11 07:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Velin Dhal wrote:
Then why doesn't everyone get max skills from day 1 ?
Non sequitur.
Quote:
SP is a measurement of power.
No. It's a measurement of time.
Domain-specific SP is a measurement of closeness to some ideal 100% equipment effectiveness.
Total SP could possibly be a hint towards versatility, but the skill system is too varied for it to tell us anything in detail.

If you thought it had anything whatsoever to do with power, you should return that character to its previous owner, because this game does not work the way you think it does (something that every older player would know).
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#833 - 2011-10-11 07:51:36 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
What I am saying here is that alliances with massive amounts of low SP toons will be able to completely dominate high SP toons
This is a good thing. SP is not a measurement of power — we are not playing an XP/Level/Class game here.



Then why doesn't everyone get max skills from day 1 ? SP is a measurement of power. Thinking it isn't, is insanity. Given that if two players are max skilled at flying a hurricane it comes down to skill and fittings. If one player is max skilled and the other has barely enough SP to fly the ship, how can you say that SP is not a measurement of power in a situation like that ?

Not only does SP affect what ships you can fly but it effects just about every modification you put on said ship.


SP is not completely useless but you need a lot more than "All V" to be successfull.
And thats how its meant to be, a very good Pilot with an "All IV" char should beat a average or bad pilot with an "All V" char if they fly comparable ships.
This is a bit of the problem with supers.
Subcap fleets can be countered with all kinds of stuff, a counter fleet concept, a better fc on the other side, better intel, better pilot motivation/reshipping etc. It doesnt matter how large a subcap fleet is as the pure numbers are allways just an indicator and good FCs will beat larger fleets then they command for example.
Supers are a bit more simple and while tactic helps, I havent yet seen a single fight beeing won by the faction that compensated less supers with superior tactics.
The general idea of this nerf seems to be to keep supers, especially supercarrier, out of subcap fights, and that sounds good for me because the things I mentioned above are now going to be more important.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#834 - 2011-10-11 07:53:05 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Anile8er wrote:
Otrovakruf wrote:
There is one rule that everybody, except a few, seems to have forgotten!
The most important rule of all!

If you can't afford to loose it, don't fly it!

and that goes for all ship classes and pilots. So stop complaining about you 80-120bil Titan or 20 something bil SC.

Your playing eve, Ships die, they are still gonna be hard to kill, but atleast we small guys have a chance to kill you now.

Good job CCP


I can afford to loose my Nyx... thats why i use it. It's more that CCP is making my Nyx useless other than killing caps, and more so useless to me because I am not in a giant blob alliance, and I cant change into another ship.

Oh no! you'll be forced to use the supercarrier to do what it was originally designed to do! the horror! the horror!


If it was only originally designed to kill capitals, then why exactly can it do everything it can currently ? Its not as though they just threw them on the server without testing them on the test server.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#835 - 2011-10-11 07:54:54 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
If it was only originally designed to kill capitals, then why exactly can it do everything it can currently ?
Because the implementation did not follow the design.
Quote:
Its not as though they just threw them on the server without testing them on the test server.
Actually, they kind of did — people warned them about this, but it fell on deaf ears.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#836 - 2011-10-11 07:56:44 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Confirming that logoff timer change is for all ships and not just capitals.


YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES !!!
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#837 - 2011-10-11 07:57:54 UTC
I too know that CCP does not play in 0.0. Go to highsec and CCP can work magic for you.

BoltsBitch wrote:
My carriers fighters allready occasionally totally miss battleships and now you are saying they will only have ONE THIRD of thier current tracking?
What the hell? SadEvil

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#838 - 2011-10-11 07:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven
So tl;dr of the devblog:

  • maintaining and training supercarrier gets easier and cheaper (no drone skills except FB4/5), characters get cheaper on Bazaar - more supercap proliferation
  • 25 mil skillpoints toons will be able to have everything needed at 5
  • longtime impact on supercarrier production: will get cheaper, probably soon only T2 fitted?
  • you need more guys to cover your supercap fleet, so alliances will form bigger powerbloc if they want to get stuff done
  • when sov mechanics gets changed supercarriers are useless again
  • no ratting supercarriers/ carriers kills when roaming cause fighter changes Sad
  • small alliance with small blue list will have issues to do anything sov related, pretty sure that is what we all are looking forward
  • dreadnoughts become viable again
    • [*] titans can still hit subcaps

    Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
    Velin Dhal
    Zeonic CG
    #839 - 2011-10-11 07:59:39 UTC
    Akara Ito wrote:
    Velin Dhal wrote:
    Tippia wrote:
    Velin Dhal wrote:
    What I am saying here is that alliances with massive amounts of low SP toons will be able to completely dominate high SP toons
    This is a good thing. SP is not a measurement of power — we are not playing an XP/Level/Class game here.



    Then why doesn't everyone get max skills from day 1 ? SP is a measurement of power. Thinking it isn't, is insanity. Given that if two players are max skilled at flying a hurricane it comes down to skill and fittings. If one player is max skilled and the other has barely enough SP to fly the ship, how can you say that SP is not a measurement of power in a situation like that ?

    Not only does SP affect what ships you can fly but it effects just about every modification you put on said ship.


    SP is not completely useless but you need a lot more than "All V" to be successfull.
    And thats how its meant to be, a very good Pilot with an "All IV" char should beat a average or bad pilot with an "All V" char if they fly comparable ships.
    This is a bit of the problem with supers.
    Subcap fleets can be countered with all kinds of stuff, a counter fleet concept, a better fc on the other side, better intel, better pilot motivation/reshipping etc. It doesnt matter how large a subcap fleet is as the pure numbers are allways just an indicator and good FCs will beat larger fleets then they command for example.
    Supers are a bit more simple and while tactic helps, I havent yet seen a single fight beeing won by the faction that compensated less supers with superior tactics.
    The general idea of this nerf seems to be to keep supers, especially supercarrier, out of subcap fights, and that sounds good for me because the things I mentioned above are now going to be more important.



    I agree that at the moment things are a little off. I think this patch is far in excess of what should be done however. Giving capitals a penalty to normal combat drone damage or lowing the amount they can deploy would be legit and something I think a lot of opposed pilots could live with.

    Not to mention the fighter nerf is going to make regular carriers crap.

    On the off hand as well, Capitals and Super Capitals are a part of 0.0 warfare. It is what they were designed for. True they get brought into low-sec on occasion but the real point here is that people are looking to exclude entire ship types from fleet fights just because one side can't or won't field Caps of their own.
    Acwron
    Meet The Fockers
    #840 - 2011-10-11 08:01:00 UTC
    Joshua Samson wrote:
    So your supercarrier can get tackled by a single HIC and its hard to get out. Well tough **** cupcake, how about you bring that support that should go with your massive capital?

    Awesome changes. Only thing i would also like to see is titan gun tracking nerf and a cyno spin-up timer thingy.



    All I can see in the NERF side is : It's cool to be tackled by a lousy dictor and just can't hit it...After all, you fly a 17 bill Hull price SC and a dictor is like...how much? And he's playing with you LOL...and another LOL...here comes another LOL !!!

    Let me guess...you never flew anything else but that lousy drake, did you?

    I want all my SP spent on carrier 5, titan 5, capital turret 5, DD...


    NERF NERF !!! The drake army shouts ! Nerf what you can't fly, boost what you can ! Good politics !

    BIG GRIM at you guys...Eve is already old enough, dying soon...Was fun but hey, there are plenty of other options, really.