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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#781 - 2011-10-11 06:56:26 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
The problem here is not capital ships. The problem here is people not understand fleet comp. A 60 man fleet of Muninns, Hictors, and scimitars can kill 3 super carriers with ease. If your not shooting their drones and letting them DPS you, how is that their fault ?

It may take a while to kill them but once they have no drones and no cap they're sitting ducks. Its not about a ship being to powerful. If a fleet of nothing but T2 cruisers can kill them, I wouldn't go to the extreme lengths to **** on them like is happening here.


This man is right.

Supercaps are very killable for subcaps at the moment in EVE, it just requires planning and organization. Basically what CCP is saying with these changes is you shouldnt need a well thought out fleet to kill a supercap you should just need a blob.

I find it funny that these changes GREATLY FAVOR Goonswarm and TEST. And yes I have seen some Goon and TEST players post against these changes. The vast majority support the changes and have been pushing for a patch like this for the last year or so.


I'm going to have to agree with you. It seems to me that the alliances that would benefit the most from this are the people who have been backing this since the beginning. I'm going to have to add Initiative and former initiative mercs corps in here.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#782 - 2011-10-11 06:56:28 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:
@Fighter Nerf:
Not seeing too many issues. Sentry drones have a signature resolution of 400, so fighters should still be able to hit battleships without much difficulty.
No, they're not the same because sentries do not generate their own transversal — fighters do. In addition, the two operate on vastly different ranges where that tracking change creates vastly different results. As a result, they will almost not be able to hit battleship at all (effective DPS output of 3.5%).
ToXicPaIN
Souls of Steel
#783 - 2011-10-11 06:57:03 UTC
malet wrote:
kralz wrote:
CCP for real, when this goes live, can i have a pop up window asking me if i want to be refuned both isk for the carrier and capital mod skill books and every single SP i invest in them? all of my training is cap oriented with every account and every toon, this patch totally ruins my game...

carrier pve ruined...and no one is gonna buy carriers, so my bpos are worthless, SC are utterly worthless, wasted toon, just lemme go back about 2 years of sp and relocate skills and i may keep playing, i trained my skills on known ship pros and cons....note i fly a nyx....its really not fair that i should have 5 accounts totally screwed over because some whiny noobs cant compete.

its cool tho, goons have won the game indeed.

does CCP actually play the game? in any way? or is there some really strong drug in jove space us mere us cannot dare to try? i mean are u guys really really this stupid?



Best post here tbh, Just goes to prove CCP are not playing the game. You are listening to the whiners . I have 3 accounts that are supercaptial trained, 2 titan and 1 nyx. Why should we suffer just because you fail to get a grip on what is happening in the game.

I have to agree i would like to see a pop up window asking if i would like all my skills for supercaps reallocated all the isk and time reimbursed. You have truly become detached from the wonderful game that you have created. Such a shame but at least star wars galaxies is out soon,, along with BF3, guess then you will see a few more unemployed GM`s in Iceland as i suspect a lot of people leaving this game in disgust.

Most of the whine comes from the people that don`` have the foresight to compete, and the ex northern coalition that gorged all their isk instead of investing it in super cap production for their alliances. Now they are homeless and bitching about it. So what do you do? You punish the people that invested time and money in their people.

The stealth carrier nerf is a joke, even CCP say in their blog to bring carriers to the field, why would you do that. The fighter nerf just makes them a large hauler to move ships around. Thats it.

You are killing the game and driving your player base to other forms of entertainment such as bf3 / s.wars etc. If that was your intention then good job!! Good luck with DUST514, If your lucky you may have a subscriber base of 50k people left.

And one final thing, if you think supercaps are too hard to kill, stick them up against a malestrom fleet of a welp fleet of canes, then come back to me and tell me they cant be killed!!!!

Dont expect any more cash from my wallet, or allow us 1 docking to reporcess these now completely useless ships and give us our skillpoints back


!! AGREE !!


SuperCarrier can be killed only with 77x Hurricanes

http://bdeal.org/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=48343

Titans can be killed only with 44x Battelcruisers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q97pyRfzztQ

there is no point to get a -20% HP Nerf , and also to remove the Normaldrones and the DD must be work on subcaps.

Please let me dock my SC and Titan ... please !!!! i want to reprocess him and build more Subcap ships for the N00bs in this game ...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#784 - 2011-10-11 06:57:36 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
No ship should be 100% reliant on other ships to survive
1. They're not.
2. Why not?
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#785 - 2011-10-11 06:58:05 UTC
I read on Kugu that he was going to kick everyone out of Delve in 1 month. That was about 3 weeks ago. Delve still awaits his Shock and awe plan. He used his CSM intel to start pumping out dreads ahead of time. So everyone better keep up.


Manfred Sideous wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
chunorris wrote:
In 6 months, when this game will be ruined and goonswarm trololol CCP with his 150 dread fleet, you will rememer this devblog. Now, any 180 man hurricane fleet will kill a supercarrier fleet. That is not balance.

Quote:
Personally as a carrier owner I'd prefer to see the fighter nerf applied specifically on SCs and not on all carriers


Lol. Personally, i prefer dont touch anything about drones in supers but you know, start crying with 6000 friends and put a csm in your life and ccp will do everyting you want.




Excuse me sir, but the forums have taught me that the CSM is a completely powerless entity and that the Chairmanship is a title without meaning.

Try to keep up!



So you won't be seeking re-election or will you? Can I get a quote here please?

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"

Joe Censored
Wok The Dog
#786 - 2011-10-11 06:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Censored
So now a single sabre can solo hold a titan hostage for 23 hours straight, no way for a titan to kill it, or escape, in pretty much any circumstance.

Something seriously wrong with that. Not every titan participates in the blob fest by the way. Guess now titans are dedicated only to blobs. Single use ship.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#787 - 2011-10-11 07:01:07 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
My Thoughts,

I believe titan guns need nerfed - the ability for titans to be remote sensor boosted and trackling linked while unable to e-war'd in return is entirely broken. The fights earlier this year consisted of bait out the battleship gang then bring in X number of titans relative to the hostile fleet size, DD command and logi and then they would ALPHA STRIKE BATTLESHIPS AND CRUISERS OFF THE FIELD because they would be remote boosted and supported by superarriers which themselves would not kill anything but they would remote sensor boost and tracking enhance the titans while their guns completely destroyed the hostile fleets. In those instances the supercarriers would rarely deploy a drone of any kind and did not need to.

I believe the drone nerfing for supers will not have a major effect, that the fighter sig resolution nerf is silly as usually tracking on fighters usually mitigates that problem anyway. Also one of the problems ive noticed with fighterbombers is that they cannot be killed, even away from the supercarrier they've instantly redocked / warped off - you should be able to tackle and bubble fighterbombers and kill them.


Hey look, someone who actually plays the game and knows what they're talking about. Cool.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#788 - 2011-10-11 07:02:31 UTC
Joe Censored wrote:
So now a single sabre can solo hold a titan hostage for 23 hours straight, no way for a titan to kill it, or escape, in pretty much any circumstance.

Something seriously wrong with that.
Yes there is something seriously wrong with that: the titan pilot's corp/alliance. They need to be fired from the job.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#789 - 2011-10-11 07:02:38 UTC
Joe Censored wrote:
So now a single sabre can solo hold a titan hostage for 23 hours straight, no way for a titan to kill it, or escape, in pretty much any circumstance.

Something seriously wrong with that.


Not just a Titan...every capital in the game
Vulfnaadur
Veris Explorers
#790 - 2011-10-11 07:03:22 UTC
Might as well let everyone fly a titan, heck let them go into high sec. Give them out to rookie pilots with cookies and milk.
Your changes suck. Not just for the pilots who fly them and spent years training for them, but for the builders and those
who deal in cap parts and prints.

mkint
#791 - 2011-10-11 07:03:52 UTC
you know... I cba'd to read the whole threadnaught... makes me wonder if CCP's gonna do the same thing. Usually they only read the first 5 pages, listen to only the first 2 posts of "great!" and assume everything will go fine.

Does anyone else have the feeling that CCP's gonna screw the pooch on this one somehow?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Akiriy Azuriko
Sleeper Dreams
D E L E T E L O C A L
#792 - 2011-10-11 07:04:08 UTC
Nice work CCP. now wheres that hybrid buff ?
ToXicPaIN
Souls of Steel
#793 - 2011-10-11 07:05:03 UTC
Joe Censored wrote:
So now a single sabre can solo hold a titan hostage for 23 hours straight, no way for a titan to kill it, or escape, in pretty much any circumstance.

Something seriously wrong with that.


signed !
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#794 - 2011-10-11 07:05:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Anile8er
Ganthrithor wrote:


This isn't COAD, its not a place for propaganda and posturing-- its a place to discuss the future of gameplay. I would hope that people wouldn't just vote the party line on every issue here.


No its not COAD, but it is very clear to see that the changes that many of the Goons, a majority player base of lower SP/ new players no offense, have pushed for are on the plate for the patch.

Ganthrithor wrote:


I'm mostly for these changes (I think supercaps are broken and killing gameplay) but there's just one particular point on which I disagree (that the total removal, rather than limitation of, drones on supercarriers is unnecessary). I'm not going to argue that this is necessary just because Mittani says I should, or because I think it would benefit our alliance (which I think it would, since we tend to be more subcap than supercap heavy).


I 100% agree that Supercaps are broken in EVE and I have been posting to that effect for the last 18 months. However I 100% disagree that the changes to supercaps presented by CCP are the fix.

Perhaps being able to dock a supercarrier should be put on the plate if CCP really see's these changes as the way forward. Essentially they are telling a player that you have to fly a ship that can do one thing only and unless you have a sitting toon you are trapped in that ship.
Joe Censored
Wok The Dog
#795 - 2011-10-11 07:05:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Joe Censored wrote:
So now a single sabre can solo hold a titan hostage for 23 hours straight, no way for a titan to kill it, or escape, in pretty much any circumstance.

Something seriously wrong with that.
Yes there is something seriously wrong with that: the titan pilot's corp/alliance. They need to be fired from the job.


Not every titan is part of the blob fest
FearOwns
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#796 - 2011-10-11 07:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FearOwns
CCP,

I like your progress towards finally fixing a problem that has existed for over two years. However, the approach is not ideal. Supercarriers and Titans are very expensive investments to their owners. The proposed change is simply a slap in the face for those that took the time to actually train and purchase a supercarrier or titan. When I heard of these changes I initially thought it was goon propaganda until I read it here.

Log off timer
The change to log off timers actually makes sense! Once your ships are on field they should remain until the bitter end.

Remote ECM Burst Change
This makes sense!

Drones
I agree that removing drones other then fighters and bombers make sense, however supercarriers should still be allowed to fit 20 fighters and 20 bombers. Especially when considering the fighter sig increase will not allow them to hit a BS that is moving over 100m/s.. You do realize this hurts regular carriers too right?

EHP Reduction/Drones
As I mentioned before, titans and supercarriers are not cheap, by reducing their EHP its simply making them no better then regular carriers which are a fraction of the price, can be insured, require less SP, and can dock. Medium sized gangs can already take down supercarriers with ease. The usual complaint towards supercarriers is that they are extremely effective in killing carriers and dreadnaughts, the proposed changes do nothing to solve this problem. They are still extremely effective capital killers. A solution to this would be along the lines of actually making a supercarrier a "super" carrier and removing bombers completely(where did they even come from?), making supercarriers a viable support platform as they were intended when they were created. I personally would prefer not to have invested 20+Bil on a ship that will now not be able to launch full sets of fighters or bombers(or hit anything smaller then a capital), and can be killed by two hics and a dreadnaught. (The chance of ECM bursting two hics is very slim and killing them will be out of the question considering the fighter change.)

Dreadnaught Changes
I actually agree with all of the proposed changes here. Dreadnaughts are under utilized and this should hopefully make them a bit more popular.

Titan Superweapon
It makes sense to take away the titans ability to 1 shot mach's roaming around null sec. But completely removing their only defense mechanism towards hics/dics is a bit crazy. With the log off timer change, a single hic could hold a titan permanently until PL makes their 4 mid points and 30 minutes later to kill the poor guy. Along with the drone bay removal they have a 0% change of getting the single hic/dic off them.

There are better ways to answer the tears of the hurricane blobs.. Which if I remember correctly, do kill supercarriers quite effectively with the current mechanics..
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#797 - 2011-10-11 07:09:21 UTC
Joe Censored wrote:
Not every titan is part of the blob fest
Well, that clears things up.

SC pilots in this game are so 1337 that they need an entire blob to kill a single sabre. Lol

Come on, guys, L2P.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#798 - 2011-10-11 07:11:55 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:


This isn't COAD, its not a place for propaganda and posturing-- its a place to discuss the future of gameplay. I would hope that people wouldn't just vote the party line on every issue here.


No its not COAD, but it is very clear to see that the changes that many of the Goons, a majority player base of lower SP/ new players no offense, have pushed for are on the plate for the patch.


I agree, and I think its dumb of them to support the bits of these proposed changes that don't make sense.

Anile8er wrote:

Ganthrithor wrote:


I'm mostly for these changes (I think supercaps are broken and killing gameplay) but there's just one particular point on which I disagree (that the total removal, rather than limitation of, drones on supercarriers is unnecessary). I'm not going to argue that this is necessary just because Mittani says I should, or because I think it would benefit our alliance (which I think it would, since we tend to be more subcap than supercap heavy).


I 100% agree that Supercaps are broken in EVE and I have been posting to that effect for the last 18 months. However I 100% disagree that the changes to supercaps presented by CCP are not the fix.

Perhaps being able to dock a supercarrier should be put on the plate if CCP really see's these changes as the way forward. Essentially they are telling a player that you have to fly a ship that can do one thing only and unless you have a sitting toon you are trapped in that ship.




I completely agree. I think the SC drone nerf goes to far, that it will limit SCs to being either glorified, mobile SMAs/CHAs or relegate them to unopposed structure shooting, neither of which sounds very exciting to me. If my ship is going to be made as useless as a dread, I'd like it to be refunded, tia.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#799 - 2011-10-11 07:12:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Joe Censored wrote:
So now a single sabre can solo hold a titan hostage for 23 hours straight, no way for a titan to kill it, or escape, in pretty much any circumstance.

Something seriously wrong with that.
Yes there is something seriously wrong with that: the titan pilot's corp/alliance. They need to be fired from the job.


Ok let me throw up a senario here. Tell me what you think.

TEST rolls into a system with a 200 man subcap fleet. The alliance that owns the system can field a maximum of 80 pilots. Currently they have a chance to defend themselves because we'll say they can field 6 Super carriers and 12 Carriers. After this patch, TEST can roll into that system and there is really very little the smaller alliance can do about it. The capitals become all but useless. The cycle times on capital reps make it stupid to choose them over logistics ships. So all in all, they lose everything because the people that don't have them are upset.
Psymn
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#800 - 2011-10-11 07:13:32 UTC
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?