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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#621 - 2011-10-11 00:40:28 UTC
" Welpfleet " is a term used for psycological purposes. It means we are going to fail so accept defeat with a smile. Keeps their soldiers happy when they do lose a whole fleet. When they win and kill a fleet they recieve cudos as they were suppose to lose.
It is an acceptance of failure. It is a very smart tactic. Although it can only last between 3 to 5 weeks at a time before the loud voices ( whiney rejects / turbulant spys ) drown out the mantra.

David Carel wrote:
Tokino Kaalakiota wrote:
Mittani and the rest of the "supercap blob" whiners can go cry themselves to sleep while smart individuals can make use of existing tactics to counter supercap blobs


I recommend you to look up "Welpfleet" and the distribution of supers; it would be nice if you had a clue before posting.


“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"

Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#622 - 2011-10-11 00:40:32 UTC
Cheekything wrote:
One minor change and it'll be nearly perfect.

Increase Fighter Bomber Prices, current ones are far too cheap.

Fighter = > 15 mill => Similar Stats to a Tier 4 cruiser
Fighter Bomber => 20 mill => Similar Stats to a Tier 3 battleship.



If my fighter bombers can hit a tier 3 BS I would agree with you.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#623 - 2011-10-11 00:40:52 UTC
RORQUAL now has the strongest Set of Drones in the GAME!!!!

I am so going to PWN You all!!

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Samanta Raiolaser
SPTC-IC
#624 - 2011-10-11 00:43:53 UTC
2 things that I've found hilarious:

- Pilots saying "adapt or die" to supercap heavy alliances. When CCP adjusted supercaps the way they are today all you did was bawawawaw cry. The truth is "adapt or cry" huh?

- CCP Tallest said: "If you want to deal with sub-capitals, you should bring your own sub-capitals or a carrier." We have been saying for quite some time, dear biased Dev: "If you want to deal with super-capitals, you should bring your own super-capitals or dreads".
But asking 6000 goons to put some "effort" it's too much, right? Lets just nerf-it to the ground and make Soundwave and Mittens happy.

GG

Flame away




Kari Kari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#625 - 2011-10-11 00:52:01 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Kari Kari wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
If you enjoyed these changes and things happening to spaceships IN SPACE I guerantee you'll love the rest of the stuff we have lined up for winter Big smile

Keep an eye out for the blogs.



Already cancelled all other subscriptions since EVE and CCP has gone to total sh**!



no one cares about obvious alt posts. you will still be here and you will still be flying your caps.

Quit your whining and get back to farming out your 0.0 space.


Actually dips*** I will not be already gave most of my assets away to friends. So your intelligence level is pretty low... CCP LOW!
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#626 - 2011-10-11 00:52:14 UTC
Samanta Raiolaser wrote:
2 things that I've found hilarious:

- Pilots saying "adapt or die" to supercap heavy alliances. When CCP adjusted supercaps the way they are today all you did was bawawawaw cry. The truth is "adapt or cry" huh?

- CCP Tallest said: "If you want to deal with sub-capitals, you should bring your own sub-capitals or a carrier." We have been saying for quite some time, dear biased Dev: "If you want to deal with super-capitals, you should bring your own super-capitals or dreads".
But asking 6000 goons to put some "effort" it's too much, right? Lets just nerf-it to the ground and make Soundwave and Mittens happy.

GG

Flame away








so true
stupid monkey
Easy Co.
The Celestial Empire
#627 - 2011-10-11 00:55:03 UTC
not sure if its been asked yet but due to drones being removed from dreads/titans as well as other changes to most capitals, will we see a reworking of the manufacturing requirements for said ship hulls?

if the above is true then how about at the same time remove that ******** single turret hard point on the phoenix??
Dansara
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#628 - 2011-10-11 01:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dansara
I must applaud CCP for attempting to fix the problem with supers at the moment.

Log off timer gets a massive big tick, although then the EHP nerf seems to try to address the same probelm. Which doesn't make sense. If I can keep the super tackled and aggressed, the EHP nerf is redundant.

If CCP were adamant about an EHP nerf, they should try and balance all super caps so that the Hel isn't nerfed to hell. (Pun intended)

Stealth nerf to carriers with sig changes to fighters seems rushed and not too well thought out. Maybe just sig nerf FB's only, to something like 250-300

Giving supers the ability to field 20 x Fighters and 20 FB's seems better than making them choose between having one or the other. Switching a flight of fighters to FB will be a massive issue, given that supers can't dock.

Siege timer reduction is a good start, although tracking needs to be looked at to make dreads more viable. ROF bonues to Moros seems rushed and not too thought through again.

To echo my CEO's comments. Titans really need to be turned into a logistics/command platform and reducing their effectiveness as an offensive/combat vessel is crucial.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#629 - 2011-10-11 01:01:01 UTC
Kari Kari wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Kari Kari wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
If you enjoyed these changes and things happening to spaceships IN SPACE I guerantee you'll love the rest of the stuff we have lined up for winter Big smile

Keep an eye out for the blogs.



Already cancelled all other subscriptions since EVE and CCP has gone to total sh**!



no one cares about obvious alt posts. you will still be here and you will still be flying your caps.

Quit your whining and get back to farming out your 0.0 space.


Actually dips*** I will not be already gave most of my assets away to friends. So your intelligence level is pretty low... CCP LOW!



How about you get the balls to post with your main? Until you post with your main you get no respect.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Warrrules
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#630 - 2011-10-11 01:02:43 UTC
One of the worse nerfs I have seen to date..

The log off timer is the only good part of this nerf...

All the EHP nerf is going to do is turn the super carriers into blob ships. No one will be willing to drop a ship that has zero defense against the only 2 ship classes that can tackle it. I guess my curse and dictor alts need to find a ratting supercarrier and solo it now...

The removal of standard drones will just force people into titans. Just like before fighter bombers, the supercarrier didn't hold the power for the price.. People just preferred to move straight into a ship that mattered (i.e. the titan.)

I agree with the dread buffs but it still needs more.. Dreads need to have a place in killing capitals again.. Not just dieing to them.



If you want to fix super carriers, limit the regular drones to deploying 5 at a time. This way they still have some defense against subcaps but are no better then the subcaps that can deploy the same drones. Revert the EHP back to normal so people will continue to use super carriers over titans.

If you want to fix titans, make them unable to receive remote tracking links, and alter the doomsday back to its original effect but LIMIT IT TO ONE PER SYSTEM for a set number of time, and make it scale off of sig radius so that smaller ships can tank it as well. This would cause the titan to become a strategic asset.. Alliances could no longer drop 30 and have an advantage. It would be all about the strategy of how it was deployed and used in the fight.. Titans should also be anchored in position for 3 mins after blowing the doomsday, making them targets to be tackled once they are used.

Stop taking ships to the extreme and think of ways to level them out.. Supers should not be defenseless against their much weaker, much CHEAPER counter parts (i.e. Battleships).
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#631 - 2011-10-11 01:11:55 UTC
/me posting more

Just saw the sigrad change for fighters. Were they really 100m? That must have sucked something fierce for subcaps. Now at 400m it means the only thing they will still be 100% effective against will be battleships and bigger.

So fighter-bombers for structures and fighters for cap-ships? Player escorts for subcaps? Sounds much better.

Now please remove the EWAR immunity. No system should be totally immune to EWAR. Highly resistant? Sure.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#632 - 2011-10-11 01:14:17 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
I'll rephrase, what specifically are the roles of each class of capital ship combat wise? It kinda feels like this is a very reactionary (although necessary change) that lacks the *vision* needed to be understood by us.


It's exactly what it is. Nerfing hp after buffing hp when it was needed. Not nerfing damage when the damage boost was causing the issue. Removing drones when they did nothing to make the ship overpowered or not.

TL;DR CCP have no clue what to do with supers, they just blantantly take populistic decisions. If CCP really looked at the issue with supers (titans as well as moms doing high damage), and thought through if they needed a damage role or not, they'd start nerfing those aspects. I.e. FB's, tracking links/guns and DD on titan. But no, they went with random populistic changes that makes no sense, and still not having a role for the ships.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#633 - 2011-10-11 01:14:41 UTC
look at all you idiots trying to use cost as a balancing factor

ever heard of diminishing returns

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Lorren Canada
High is the Way - But all eyes are Upon the Ground
#634 - 2011-10-11 01:17:46 UTC
Kel'taith wrote:
So a single dic could kill a SC now if it had enough ammo?


If a supercarrier pilot dies to a dic you should take him behind the woodshed and promptly cut off his head.
Lorren Canada
High is the Way - But all eyes are Upon the Ground
#635 - 2011-10-11 01:18:50 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
I'll rephrase, what specifically are the roles of each class of capital ship combat wise? It kinda feels like this is a very reactionary (although necessary change) that lacks the *vision* needed to be understood by us.


It's exactly what it is. Nerfing hp after buffing hp when it was needed. Not nerfing damage when the damage boost was causing the issue. Removing drones when they did nothing to make the ship overpowered or not.

TL;DR CCP have no clue what to do with supers, they just blantantly take populistic decisions. If CCP really looked at the issue with supers (titans as well as moms doing high damage), and thought through if they needed a damage role or not, they'd start nerfing those aspects. I.e. FB's, tracking links/guns and DD on titan. But no, they went with random populistic changes that makes no sense, and still not having a role for the ships.


What do you know about supers? Go back to mining ice with your buddies so we can gank them again.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#636 - 2011-10-11 01:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Obsidian Hawk
Ok so here is a tl;dr of the first 32 pages.


RAGE from 1/2 of 0.0

Joy from the other half.


The rage part comes from alliances that rely only on supers and can't fly anything smaller. The joy is coming from the alliances who dont have 1051375023 super caps to field at one time.


Pandemic legion - doesnt care, they are still going to hot drop your capitals and make you lose money, just going to be more creative about it.



CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM summarized / suggestions

1. Arrow Please let dreads keep their drone bay - but have the siege module make it so dreads cannot use drones while in siege mode - similar to carriers triage mode. Idea

2 .Arrow Nothing really wrong with fighters and their scan resolution, they are fairly easy to kill as is, so no real need to change them.

3. Arrow Hel is getting hit the worst and will have the lowest EHP of all the mom's please leave their hp alone and maybe look into changing the bonus from logi to something like drone rof.

4. Arrow Drone bay sizes should be able to take a full compliment of fighters and fighter bombers. 25 f / 25 FB. This will leave some versatility to moms to either assign fighters to sub caps to help them out or have a full wing of bombers for capital / sov fights.

5. Arrow Look into dread / titan tracking of turrets,

6. Arrow You should explain more in depth about hybrid changes to quell the fear about the changes it is going to receive, you already broke its poor little legs.

7. Arrow If regular carriers are going to be support ships to the supers, make sure they get some good bonuses to help defend against sub caps,
7a - small hp buff
7b - better tracking for all drones
7c - speed bonus drones ETC

8. Arrow A note to the community - THESE ARE PLANNED CHANGES AND ARE NOT YET IN STONE! Get on the test server and try it out and offer constructive help not whining and rage quitting.

9. Arrow This is not a slap to bitter vets, most bitter vets flew before tons of super caps and massive pwn mobiles, they are smart and can adapt, they know tactics, and will adapt before the nerf hits.

10. Arrow To those asking for a reduced cost since hp is getting nerfed - quit asking the prices haven't really changed since they were introduced into the game. Back before their buff moms barely had 1 million ehp total and were still 18 bill.

11. Arrow Finally to the devs - BEFORE YOU IMPLEMENT THIS, please post a second dev blog about community suggestions on these changes and talk more with us about what changes will be final and which ones will be left on the floor, or changes we can meet each other half way.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#637 - 2011-10-11 01:24:12 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Does fighter tracking nerf means we will see an T3 cost inflation, and general ISK value inflation?

Them people who rat with normal carriers gonna be mad xD


Sanctumrunners getting a nerf is a great thing, they're already making stupid money and need a massive hit in the wallet.. but think about officer killing. No more super/carrier killing officers, and no more titan dd officers either. So either titan guns or bring a fullscale fleet with RR support to kill them? Officers were already ridicilous to kill, since people felt the need to use supers/caps on them, and now that state has gotten even worse. Roflcopter.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Kari Kari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#638 - 2011-10-11 01:26:27 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
People who buy obvioulsy unbalanced stuff because of the unbalanced **** in the stuff should stay quiet. You ought to know that it is going to be balanced sooner or later.


Seriously, I think when you train for a ship as long as we have as super cap toons, we hsould be able to b****, since we go cheated out of the ship we trained for. SO how about you noob go back to the noob alliance you came from thanks.
FHM
Doomheim
#639 - 2011-10-11 01:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: FHM
Very nice change's ! Finally small alliances that can field 100 experienced people will be able to take their stand and push
for their own 0.0 I WIN BUTTON REMOVED

The most stupid complaints you hear about these balances answered:

1) We are veterans in this game ( Goons, PL, Raiden... ) we win every fight because we have the hardcore skill of being able to press I WIN button.

1) You are not veterans you only exist because of the I WIN button i am looking forward to High Sec mining corporations
whelping PL, Raiden, Solar, WN, Goon fleets like its no tomorrow. Veterans adapt to changes not cry about them. Saying
that most veterans will quit when having their supers nerfed shows how wrong your idea and meaning of the word: veteran
really is.

If you need to quit because you got BUT HURT and are no longer able to press the I WIN button and call your self a veteran go and do it no one will miss you Q3 2011 reported 1k super capital pilots active in EVE well that's the FAT we can easily trim.

2) Super capitals can no longer defend them selves against sub-capitals.

Another stupid argument that can be made only by a stupid person. Super capitals are slow, big and clumsy logistical
platform whit ability to counter other BIG things and should not be used for melting sub-capitals.
If you field your super your should field it to a purpose knowing full well you can easily use it. Just because you payed 18 billion or 85 billion for your hull does not mean you are granted the I WIN button.

By bye ******** and arrogant corp mates that think they are so important based on the fact they have a SC.

3) I can no longer rat in my Carrier, Super Carrier, Titan.

If you ever did that you deserve to die in it. Titans and Super Carriers are meant to be an alliance investment not a personal investment. So they should not be cost effective or give you a 200 or 360mil/h bonus they are not ratting machines and if
that is what you used them fore you need to go back and start doing L1's and learn a thing or two about the game.

4) 100 Canes can no kill a lone Super Carrier

Well ofc the outcome of that fight had to be reversed. It how it is in real life and whatever imaginary life you imagine.

5) Most common argument from Goons, PL, WN, Raiden, NC... In this topic is:

We can no longer use the I WIN button our super capital blob is dead we are about to loose super capitals on daily basis
that will be caught ratting for our extreme veteran title.

Answer: Just learn to PVP learn to play.

6) Dreads will be OP

How cuss it to hard to put a scram on it when it exits sige? Or based on fact it cant hit anything that moved at 1m/s ?
Or is it 2 hard to light a cyno from your spy alts to drop a SC fleet on them. Only thing this changed is taking the
pace of this game to a new level where you will have to respond to assaults faster.

And even if their will be OP there is a counter CCP gave you and promised to buff them. They are the ships you
so refuse to fly. You will find them under the market tab BLACK OPS finally a use for them. Have em standing by
and you have a fleet ready for rapid deployment in your sov space.

7) I trained for 6 months but SC's are useless now give me back my skills

You were aware of what you were committing to and the fact everything is viable to change in game. So if you think it was
a mistake going for a SC it is only your own problem. Also few years ago i trained for a Dread that are useless ATM
you don't see me crying for years give me back my skills.





If you cry about these changes you are possibly the 13-25 year old kid that has a ton of time to spare and grinds those
anomaly's, L4s and 10/10 DED's and logs off the second someone mentions CTA or Roam.
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#640 - 2011-10-11 01:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Akara Ito
Misanth wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
I'll rephrase, what specifically are the roles of each class of capital ship combat wise? It kinda feels like this is a very reactionary (although necessary change) that lacks the *vision* needed to be understood by us.


It's exactly what it is. Nerfing hp after buffing hp when it was needed. Not nerfing damage when the damage boost was causing the issue. Removing drones when they did nothing to make the ship overpowered or not.


You cant nerf the FB damage because the role of a supercarrier is to deal a lot of damage.
They are anti sov dps plattforms and now they finally become this and not more.
The hp nerf is actually pretty small but its going to have his effect with the log off changes.

Oh and just for the records: If you lose a Supercap to "a single hic" or a very, very small gang that means:
you werent able to get some friends to come along for whatever you're doing and
you werent able to figure out why this funny fitting you got from this wiki has neutralizer on it and
you are unable to use a decent fit and
you dont know a single person who could help you organise some backup and
you were stupid enough to get your SC in a combat situation under this circumstances; then holy ******* **** you deserve whats comming to you.

Every ship in EVE has a role, every fleettype has a counter, the only ships that didnt fit into this were supercaps.
Welcome back to (space)earth.