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New dev blog: Ship balancing summer update

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Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#821 - 2012-06-25 15:55:24 UTC
JTK Fotheringham wrote:
I was thinking about the T2 bonuses to merc, ice and bulk mining, and how it's not clear how these bonuses will overlap with the re-envisaged ship types.

Why not make role bonus rigs?

So you want to modify your hulk for ice mining with a larger fleet, fit some ice mining rigs.

You want your small, well tanked Ret / Mac for merc mining in an 0.0 grav site? Fit a rig that grants the current Skiff role bonus.

That way, ships can retain their basic role, as re-envisage, but you can tailor your ship to the minieral types you mine most often.

Just saying.
/JTK

Stealth edit - You'll realise I don't read everything in long threads, and if this has been suggested, I'm just echoing my support.

Introducing rigs to grant that might be difficult.
With the current numbers is would enable a hulk to mine mercoxit like 3 skiffs and to mine ice like 1.5 mackinaws, so you would have to change the number of high slots to compensate that.

Whatever CCP is going to change, they should thing about repacking the exhumers and mining barges with dropping all the modules AND RIGS into the hangar.

From my point of view the current roles of exhumers are fine, I wouldn't want to have to switch ships only because I mine the same thing in a group or solo.

We'll have to wait and see how CCP will adapt the ships. I'm looking forward to reading that dev blog. And please CCP make it a dev blog talking about that (and maybe mining frigates and T3 mining barges) only.
Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#822 - 2012-06-25 16:37:51 UTC
Shocked

unless things have seriously changed almost no-one RRs Hulks in Empire. Hell they rarely did so in low/nulsec.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#823 - 2012-06-25 17:21:02 UTC
Quote:
The Vigil needs much love. Although i Hope it keeps its Minmatar love of speed..


Excuse my outrage posting but:

Thisthisthisthisthisthis.

I'd rather have the Vigil remain an untouched Virgin -- For the love of all matari gods and goddess, LEAVE THE SPEED BONUS!


My defensive suggestion would be to add a separate vigil hull with the "missile and whatever" aspects -- but the original Vigil with the Max. Speed Bonus must prevail, please *begs*


The Vigil is a fragile and rare tackling/support underdog.
Please keep it that way.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Midori Amiiko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#824 - 2012-06-26 07:33:01 UTC
I rebut two previous posts:
T3 mining--having blown up an assload of Sleepers I can say that they show no signs of industrial activity. The lack of verisimilitude would be astounding. I also fail to see how the versatility provided by sub-systems would be put to good use by mining ships. I'd rather see T3 confined to combat ships. T3 frigs, yes! T3 mining barge, puh-lease!!!
Caldari inty boosts--all Caldari can hang. If you don't like how slow they are, add a med extender to the mids. See how many hp you have?
SabuMaru ICE
DLM Enterprises
The Serenity Initiative
#825 - 2012-06-26 11:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: SabuMaru ICE
Midori Amiiko wrote:
I rebut two previous posts:
T3 mining--having blown up an assload of Sleepers I can say that they show no signs of industrial activity. The lack of verisimilitude would be astounding. I also fail to see how the versatility provided by sub-systems would be put to good use by mining ships. I'd rather see T3 confined to combat ships. T3 frigs, yes! T3 mining barge, puh-lease!!!
Caldari inty boosts--all Caldari can hang. If you don't like how slow they are, add a med extender to the mids. See how many hp you have?


as far as i know the 4 Fractions adapted the Sleeper Tech into the Tech3 ships
this would mean that fitting within the storyline the ORE-Alliance is able to do the same

and also fitting within the philosophy of CCP this means it is possible to create T3-"industial" ships
that can be used as the Swiss-Army knife of the Industrialists

looking at the roll with that ballpark i would say that the T3 would have the following possibilities
- ORE-Mining
- ICE-Mining
- GAS-Harvesting
- Ring-Harvesting ( if ever implemented )
- Mining Foreman
- Transport of ORE/ICE/GAS/RING/MOON/Planetary and there products
- Drone Specialization ( think Carrier )
- Interdiction Nullification
- Stealth/Cloaking


on the other T3 variations or for some even more T2's are possible
i do agree with you on that there should be more and more ships
that offer new gameplay.. but also new modules to add to that as well

but also other parts of this game need to evolve with that
something CCP did in my opinion pretty good so far

but in the end ... let them first balance the game as it is now,before adding more.
we will mostly likely all want more ships ... more modules... more space... more content
but lets just assist CCP with ideas and constructive criticism..
that is something that will be beneficial to all in the end
Adoniyah
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#826 - 2012-06-26 11:34:24 UTC
You know what the best part is? You cant get the UI right and your release new ****.
Kayrl Bheskagor
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#827 - 2012-06-26 17:07:23 UTC
With CCPs track record of late, ie incursions, war decs, the inventory and the faction warfare screw-up, plus all the crushing lag from the latest 'improvements", I'm not at all looking forward to seeing how badly they screw up the barges.
Headstone Carver
Cool4Cats
#828 - 2012-06-26 17:19:16 UTC
looks like the vigil is gonna get ruined, was one of my favorite t1 frigs.
I can kill almost any interceptor with it, with the exception of the ranis , I've even managed a couple of Slicer kills with the Vigil, but missiles ? really ? please dont make it so that every frig must have a fleet support role , some of us like frigs as a solo option.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#829 - 2012-06-27 02:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanessa Vansen
Quote:
New ORE frig: we want this ship to replace current mining frigates as low barrier of entry vessel, but also fulfill high-end gameplay expectations by providing a very mobile platform for mining in hostile space. Lowest mining output, decent ore bay, little to no resilience.
Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP.
Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge.
Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.


So, the smallest ship will have the best defense.
From a graphic/size point of view, it seems more fitting to go like this:

Procurer/Skiff: ore bay is identical to Hulk's current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.
-> concentrate on mining operation and cargo
- Covetor/Hulk: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP
- Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge

Or swap Covetor/Hulk with Retriever/Mackinaw
Racro Arifistan
Nirmata.
#830 - 2012-06-27 11:44:40 UTC
The tristan will have a better use and may see more usage :)Big smile

Space Chimp
Midori Amiiko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#831 - 2012-06-27 17:54:39 UTC
SabuMaru ICE wrote:
Midori Amiiko wrote:
I rebut two previous posts:
T3 mining--having blown up an assload of Sleepers I can say that they show no signs of industrial activity. The lack of verisimilitude would be astounding. I also fail to see how the versatility provided by sub-systems would be put to good use by mining ships. I'd rather see T3 confined to combat ships. T3 frigs, yes! T3 mining barge, puh-lease!!!
Caldari inty boosts--all Caldari can hang. If you don't like how slow they are, add a med extender to the mids. See how many hp you have?


as far as i know the 4 Fractions adapted the Sleeper Tech into the Tech3 ships
this would mean that fitting within the storyline the ORE-Alliance is able to do the same

and also fitting within the philosophy of CCP this means it is possible to create T3-"industial" ships
that can be used as the Swiss-Army knife of the Industrialists

looking at the roll with that ballpark i would say that the T3 would have the following possibilities
- ORE-Mining
- ICE-Mining
- GAS-Harvesting
- Ring-Harvesting ( if ever implemented )
- Mining Foreman
- Transport of ORE/ICE/GAS/RING/MOON/Planetary and there products
- Drone Specialization ( think Carrier )
- Interdiction Nullification
- Stealth/Cloaking


on the other T3 variations or for some even more T2's are possible
i do agree with you on that there should be more and more ships
that offer new gameplay.. but also new modules to add to that as well

but also other parts of this game need to evolve with that
something CCP did in my opinion pretty good so far

but in the end ... let them first balance the game as it is now,before adding more.
we will mostly likely all want more ships ... more modules... more space... more content
but lets just assist CCP with ideas and constructive criticism..
that is something that will be beneficial to all in the end


You may have convinced me...T3 is expensive so let's hope the risk/reward works out for the miners.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#832 - 2012-06-27 18:13:58 UTC
Vanessa Vansen wrote:

From a graphic/size point of view, it seems more fitting to go like this:

Procurer/Skiff: ore bay is identical to Hulk's current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.
-> concentrate on mining operation and cargo
- Covetor/Hulk: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP
- Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge


This ^^ makes the most sense. Hulk is massive, should be the tanky variety. Skiff is tiny, should be the efficient harvester. I don't give a crap how they're named, but visually that's just common sense.

I also think that they should have an item (like a midslot version of a triage or siege module, but doesnt make your ship stationary), and imparts a bonus to a particular resource being harvested.

You should be able to have bulky, tanky gas mining barges for nullsec clouds that go BOOM. You should have a lighter, faster, version that is more suited for low sec harvesting. Same with ice mining, mineral mining. I think all three material types should be able to gathered with all three barge styles, allowing miners to customize their barge for the appropriate resource and safety / efficiency level.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#833 - 2012-06-27 19:47:36 UTC
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:
With CCPs track record of late, ie incursions, war decs, the inventory and the faction warfare screw-up, plus all the crushing lag from the latest 'improvements", I'm not at all looking forward to seeing how badly they screw up the barges.

Of late?

lets go backwords in time over there list of screwups

Incarna
PI (the initial release that resulted in a masive wave of scraping of Station compoents for profit)
Faction warfare aka RIFTERBLOB(and yes I flew rifters at the time)
moon mat processing bug that lead to the mat exploit
T2 lotto

Honestly theres times I suspect that half of us stick around just to see whatthey screw up next.
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#834 - 2012-06-27 20:19:08 UTC
I dunno about that, Hans.
As far as I can tell, the size depends on the amount of mining turrets, so I would say the hulk should have the best mining yield, as that is what it visually conveys to me when I look at them: more turrets, more yield.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#835 - 2012-06-28 00:11:42 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
I dunno about that, Hans.
As far as I can tell, the size depends on the amount of mining turrets, so I would say the hulk should have the best mining yield, as that is what it visually conveys to me when I look at them: more turrets, more yield.


"More turrets, more yield" this is exactly the problem CCP has to address.
For Exhumers they solved it by granting special bonus for Mercoixt (Skiff) and Ice (Mackinaw) mining to compensate for missing high slots. Now, they could do the same with mining barges and end up like this:
- Procurer/Skiff - Mercoxit Mining
- Retriever/Mackinaw - Ice Mining
- Covetor/Hulk - Non-Mercoxit Mining
Together with "tiericide", i.e once you can fly a Procurer you can also fly a Retriever and a Covetor as well as once you can fly a Skiff you can also fly a Mackinaw and a Hulk, you solved that problem without having to change the number of high slots.
In addition, you have room to introduce a mining frigate which could carry 5 high slots for miners (not strip miners) and to introduce a T3 mining barge to implement the ideas of CCP.
MortisLegati
Everything Went Black
#836 - 2012-06-28 00:43:30 UTC
Vanessa Vansen wrote:

In addition, you have room to introduce a mining frigate which could carry 5 high slots for miners (not strip miners) and to introduce a T3 mining barge to implement the ideas of CCP.



It is now abundantly clear you have not read the devblog announcing the new mining frigate. I now bring into question the credence of your opinion.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#837 - 2012-06-28 01:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanessa Vansen
MortisLegati wrote:
Vanessa Vansen wrote:

In addition, you have room to introduce a mining frigate which could carry 5 high slots for miners (not strip miners) and to introduce a T3 mining barge to implement the ideas of CCP.



It is now abundantly clear you have not read the devblog announcing the new mining frigate. I now bring into question the credence of your opinion.

I read it up and down.

The detail you missed are the numbers of high slots : 5 - since it is the max. number of gas harvesters and the mining frigate shoulde be able to mount them, if you should use it for gas mining.
MortisLegati
Everything Went Black
#838 - 2012-06-28 02:59:06 UTC
Vanessa Vansen wrote:

The ORE Frigate should be able to gas mine effectively.


They could do that with just one slot; give it a 500% bonus. Three or four highslots could give a whole number that gives just slightly more than other ships. Highsec gas mining is super unprofitable right now, so a frigate that is a low ISK/low skill boat that could mine at the effectiveness of battlecruisers for gas would make a large amount of sense.

In the world of ship bonuses, (at least for mining) slots don't matter.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#839 - 2012-06-28 05:41:53 UTC
MortisLegati wrote:
Vanessa Vansen wrote:

The ORE Frigate should be able to gas mine effectively.


They could do that with just one slot; give it a 500% bonus. Three or four highslots could give a whole number that gives just slightly more than other ships. Highsec gas mining is super unprofitable right now, so a frigate that is a low ISK/low skill boat that could mine at the effectiveness of battlecruisers for gas would make a large amount of sense.

In the world of ship bonuses, (at least for mining) slots don't matter.


that's one way, another would be to reduce the fitting cost depending on the skill level, similar to covert ops and cloak, but for miners and gas harvester
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#840 - 2012-06-28 06:38:39 UTC
Honestly, I'm expecting new barge models to support the idea that they all will have roughly similar yields. They'll all need the same number of strip miners.

At which point it only makes sense to remove the ice/merc specialties and go with the tank/bay/yield specialties discussed in the blog.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.