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New dev blog: Ship balancing summer update

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Alain Badiou
Combine Honnete 0ber Advancer Mercantiles
#701 - 2012-06-18 17:25:53 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
RedClaws wrote:
CCP,

Please realize that players with higher SP currently don't like flying destroyers and to a lesser degree frigates because of the clonecosts , for me it costs about 50-60 mil to replace my medical clone. The odds of getting podkilled in a light interdictor is quite high.

Having high skillpoints doesn't mean that the player also has a lot of isk or some way to make isk more efficiently than a lower skilled character. Sure, I don't deny that it helps but having 10 mil SP or 100mil SP doesn't really matter for the income of level 4 agent missions.

Thanks,
Red



This is good point. I like flying with small ships too, but prices of my clone is too costly to flight with them in 0.0.
Ship repairs at not NPC 0.0 stations is costfree, would be nice there the cost free clones or reduced costs such as at FW stations.


Create a new char (like this one). Can be flying T1 Frigs and destroyers effectively within a month. Hilariously fun and clone cost is under 1M. Totally worth the effort. Saves my 80M char for cap warfare and all the other stuffs.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#702 - 2012-06-18 17:41:12 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
1.
How many ship have in EVE just one mid slot ? Check this out.

2. The problem is the drake blob. Why ? Because the drake is the best solution if you have enough members and not need too much learning time, so the newbees can easily using them after short learning period and they will increasing those drake blob numbers.

3. Wait. methought the short range weapon have better DPS than long range. So, you are wrong.
Every other ceptor can use long range weapon systems and every ceptor have bonuses for those weapon systems, except Malediction.

4. No, they still ridiculously slow. They useabled at station camp and gatecamp (except just few ship arazu etc), but when need to fight out of station/gate range they have poor performance, because they are slow and the webs not slowing downt the targets too fast. So they reach to optimum shot range too slow and this is huge disadvantage than any other ships.
Just asking yourself if you would two opportunities:

Fly with a very slow boat with huge short range DPS, but never can't reach the enemy or a faster ship with common DPS which can dictate range and dont lose his DPS when shot farther range.

I guess slow boat which is lost his DPS over 20km and can't reach his target it's a bad choice.
No matter how big your DPS if you can't hit anything.
This would be a bad approach from an engineer, if would want to build a slow boat with very short range weapons.

It's same, when heavy cavalry is dissapeared which changed onto a more mobile tactical unit.


You didn't really address any of the points I was making.

1.) All I said was that people get plenty of kills with a one-midslot coercer. It's not a requirement for being a viable ship. Yes, it may be the *only* ship that has that layout, but "everyone else has one" isn't a reason to buff something. You have to first prove that the lack of a the second mid cripples the ship.

2.) Other's have already said this so I don't need to repeat it, but just because a ship is used in a fleet doctrine doesnt mean its OP. (Believe me, no one relishes the thought of a Drake nerf more than me - but it needs to be justified, a specific change for a specific reason). Saying "gobs of noobs use them" is not logic that will ever be used to balance a ship, I'm just explaining how the dev's work.

3.) Wait, what? My point was that tackle interceptors are not designed for applying DPS to their target. That is the job of Assault ships, or any other number of ship. As for the "short range > long range DPS" comment, feel free to mount light missile launchers on it if you like. See what kind of DPS you get when compared to rockets. It doesnt really matter, if you're attempting to fit enough DPS on your fleet inty to kill the ship you're tackling, you're doing it wrong. Fleet inty's are designed for obtaining and holding point, for the rest of the fleet to finish off. Your job is to *survive*. The enemy will have drones on you. I'd love to see you attempt to stave off a wing of warrior II's with railguns, artillery, and light missile launchers. 125mm's, gatling pulse lazers, small blasters, and rockets work much better for this purpose.

4.) You dont have to explain why Gallente ships need speed to me, I understand that. I was just explaining that CCP just got finished buffing speed, that's all. *Why* Gallente ships need speed is a separate issue from whether or not CCP is going to buff it a second time before tackling the other issues that Gallente ships struggle with.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Maul555
Xen Investments
#703 - 2012-06-18 17:46:06 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Maul555 wrote:


1 I do mine in a backwater
2 mining aligned is hardly the life saver it is said to be when your not being a hyper-paranoid meth freak
3 I use local
4 this is highsec, I am too busy using D-Scan in my actual wormhole to give a rats ass about gankers

And I never sit at at the warp in point for belts like a lump as you say... And there is no price on my head.


Are you going to continue to fantasize about my mining routines while calling me stupid, or can we drop all of this nonsense?



If you're too distracted to mine safely in HS, you might consider running a less expensive mining ship.

Mining aligned will keep you 100% safe, guaranteed. Just warp off when someone starts landing on grid.

You just admitted that you are choosing to not use the tools available to keep safe. So why should your expensive cardboard box be safe?



I have not once asked for my expensive cardboard box to be safe. And yes, I am too distracted to mine safely in highsec, and I wrote that possibility off a long time ago. I am really glad for you that when you mined in highsec, that was the only thing you where doing, and you devoted %100 of your attention to that task while eying every passer by with suspicion.
Gainard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#704 - 2012-06-18 17:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gainard
They all can, as they have more than 3k EHP.
EHP is nice, if you have time and mods that work fast enough. Otherwise just HP aply. And on top of that, the Mackinaw is a poor tanker, without the ability to use med slots.

Set drones to agressive
Setting your drones to agressive in High sec can lead to you being concordockened. I actually keep them in the drone bay unless attacked by rats.

Set ECM drones to agressive, or bring a friend in something with sebos.
A tanked hulk with either a friend in a fast locking Gank BC or RR ship means Alpha is required (in fact, 6 Tornados are required.
ECM drones - dronebay and bandwith is limited and usually one is faced with rats, so I choose dps over ecm. My choice of course. As to having a friend in a BC/BS won't save you - if they see him they either do not attack or bring a friend or two as well.

So stop fitting and flying your ship bad, and you have everything you want.
I fit my mining barge for mining. Thats its job. As for avoiding being scrambled: a mining barge should be fitted for mining and not for anti ECM or anti frig or anti what ever - fit a ship for its purpose. Try to fit it to suit all all purposes and it will fit none.

Nullsec is safe due to the large amount of effort expended by a large number of people.
Never said anything different. Point is, you know immediately if the new pilot is friend or not.
To do any meaningful mining you can not run each time someone appears in local - in null sec you know if it is not blue it is time to run, otherwise just mine on. In high sec gankers just push their security level high enough to not appear orange or red - if those colors appear in local I run - I am not that stupid...


Quote:

The orehold of Hulk, Skiff and Mackinaw (when icemining) should be large enough to hold two cycles of a perfect miner with a perfect supporter (both with implants and maxed out skills). [...]. Check the space left only at the end of the cycle, not at the beginning.


2 clicks every ten minutes. Oh, the horror.
You obviously are not a skilled miner. I am maxed out and have a maxed out supporter. Of course I also have the best implants, ships and modules. I even sometimes mine ore instead of Ice.



Quote:

To make the Procurer useful it needs to be able to fit 3 stripminers. Which of course would require the retriever to fit 3 as well. Add a multiplicator to assign a bonus/malus as you seem fit. A Procurer will never become popular with just 1 stripminer and most likely not even with 2, no matter what the cargo-/orehold or the tank. If I can fit a battleship with 8 MinerII and it outmines the procurer, guess what I will use? If I can use a Hulk and even though I have to dock frequently I still outmine the Procurer, guess what I will use. In a dangerous area, where the Hulk perishes soon, how much longer will a scrambled Pocurer last? Guess who will mine there?

To make the Mackinaw more useful allow the medium slots to be used. Currently one can only put a couple of civilian shield booster there - which is just enough to fend off rat damage in upper high sec areas...

Make the cargohold extenders/rigs apply to the Orehold, please!!! I know you won't, but I would love this Big smile On a (relatively) small cargohold those are nearly useless and therefore a waste of slots.

Don't buff the Hulk beyond recognition, it takes a lot of time to get there, which should still be worthwhile. Adding the ore miner skill should take care of the training time / usefullness rate between T1 and T2 barges.

Mining cruisers - increase ore-/cargohold to make them usefull. Any Destroyer outmines them and they even come with more cargo... Better yet, skip the dedicated mining frigates, they are to small. Make the mining cruisers the entry level for dedicated mining, with a decent bonus and a suitable cargohold. Ofc one should still be able to mine in a frigate, just skip the mining bonus there.


Seriously? They said that they'd be buffing the yield of the Procurer/Retriever. Might want to wait to see the numbers before you **** yourself over them.

Actuallz I believe thez are going to push them. However, I say: kill them while the are small - I did not say anything about the new unified inventory until I had to deal with this s**t. I just try to voice my concerns before it happens again this time.

Mining Cruisers are going the way of the Dodo, replaced by an Ore Frig.
Mining cruisers will go that way... unless modified as suggested. As for mining frigs - frigs by definition are small. I would not use a mini to deliver ore to a steel manufacturing plant, I' d use a resonably sized truck.

If they're a waste of slots, don't use them... *gasp*
Nice to see you can be impressed!

Scrambled industrial ships die unless CONCORD responds quickly. In areas without CONCORD, they just die. The trick is to not get scrambled.
Concord does respond too slow - Lost a Mackinaw in a 0.7 System though being aligned. Watching local and warping out when a ship appears in the vicinity that is not an industrial is not always working, they just take to much time for everything. As for fitting see above...

Man, I train for certain goals and then the related skills / modules / ships get nerfed. I hate to be addicted to EVE.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#705 - 2012-06-18 17:50:42 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
I have not once asked for my expensive cardboard box to be safe. And yes, I am too distracted to mine safely in highsec, and I wrote that possibility off a long time ago. I am really glad for you that when you mined in highsec, that was the only thing you where doing, and you devoted %100 of your attention to that task while eying every passer by with suspicion.


No one should be *forced* to stay at their computer's 24/7, that's the cool thing about the barge overhaul. It gives people like you that don't want to play the game with 100% of your attention a chance to still make some money mining and do so in a safer setup than you ever could before. You can choose to do the semi-afk mining thing in a tanky barge, or you can actually focus exclusively on mining and go for max yield (but you'll need to keep your wits about you).

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Gainard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#706 - 2012-06-18 17:54:49 UTC
Gainard wrote:
They all can, as they have more than 3k EHP.
EHP is nice, if you have time and mods that work fast enough. Otherwise just HP aply. And on top of that, the Mackinaw is a poor tanker, without the ability to use med slots.

Set drones to agressive
Setting your drones to agressive in High sec can lead to you being concordockened. I actually keep them in the drone bay unless attacked by rats.

Set ECM drones to agressive, or bring a friend in something with sebos.
A tanked hulk with either a friend in a fast locking Gank BC or RR ship means Alpha is required (in fact, 6 Tornados are required.
ECM drones - dronebay and bandwith is limited and usually one is faced with rats, so I choose dps over ecm. My choice of course. As to having a friend in a BC/BS won't save you - if they see him they either do not attack or bring a friend or two as well.

So stop fitting and flying your ship bad, and you have everything you want.
I fit my mining barge for mining. Thats its job. As for avoiding being scrambled: a mining barge should be fitted for mining and not for anti ECM or anti frig or anti what ever - fit a ship for its purpose. Try to fit it to suit all all purposes and it will fit none.

Nullsec is safe due to the large amount of effort expended by a large number of people.
Never said anything different. Point is, you know immediately if the new pilot is friend or not.
To do any meaningful mining you can not run each time someone appears in local - in null sec you know if it is not blue it is time to run, otherwise just mine on. In high sec gankers just push their security level high enough to not appear orange or red - if those colors appear in local I run - I am not that stupid...


Quote:

The orehold of Hulk, Skiff and Mackinaw (when icemining) should be large enough to hold two cycles of a perfect miner with a perfect supporter (both with implants and maxed out skills). [...]. Check the space left only at the end of the cycle, not at the beginning.


2 clicks every ten minutes. Oh, the horror.
You obviously are not a skilled miner. I am maxed out and have a maxed out supporter. Of course I also have the best implants, ships and modules. I even sometimes mine ore instead of Ice.



Quote:

To make the Procurer useful it needs to be able to fit 3 stripminers. Which of course would require the retriever to fit 3 as well. Add a multiplicator to assign a bonus/malus as you seem fit. A Procurer will never become popular with just 1 stripminer and most likely not even with 2, no matter what the cargo-/orehold or the tank. If I can fit a battleship with 8 MinerII and it outmines the procurer, guess what I will use? If I can use a Hulk and even though I have to dock frequently I still outmine the Procurer, guess what I will use. In a dangerous area, where the Hulk perishes soon, how much longer will a scrambled Pocurer last? Guess who will mine there?

To make the Mackinaw more useful allow the medium slots to be used. Currently one can only put a couple of civilian shield booster there - which is just enough to fend off rat damage in upper high sec areas...

Make the cargohold extenders/rigs apply to the Orehold, please!!! I know you won't, but I would love this Big smile On a (relatively) small cargohold those are nearly useless and therefore a waste of slots.

Don't buff the Hulk beyond recognition, it takes a lot of time to get there, which should still be worthwhile. Adding the ore miner skill should take care of the training time / usefullness rate between T1 and T2 barges.

Mining cruisers - increase ore-/cargohold to make them usefull. Any Destroyer outmines them and they even come with more cargo... Better yet, skip the dedicated mining frigates, they are to small. Make the mining cruisers the entry level for dedicated mining, with a decent bonus and a suitable cargohold. Ofc one should still be able to mine in a frigate, just skip the mining bonus there.


Seriously? They said that they'd be buffing the yield of the Procurer/Retriever. Might want to wait to see the numbers before you **** yourself over them.

Actually I believe they are going to push them. However, I say: kill them while the are small - I did not say anything about the new unified inventory until I had to deal with this s**t. I just try to voice my concerns before it happens again this time.

Mining Cruisers are going the way of the Dodo, replaced by an Ore Frig.
Mining cruisers will go that way... unless modified as suggested. As for mining frigs - frigs by definition are small. I would not use a mini to deliver ore to a steel manufacturing plant, I' d use a resonably sized truck.

If they're a waste of slots, don't use them... *gasp*
Nice to see you can be impressed!

Scrambled industrial ships die unless CONCORD responds quickly. In areas without CONCORD, they just die. The trick is to not get scrambled.
Concord does respond too slow - Lost a Mackinaw in a 0.7 System though being aligned. Watching local and warping out when a ship appears in the vicinity that is not an industrial is not always working, they just take to much time for everything. As for fitting see above...

Man, I train for certain goals and then the related skills / modules / ships get nerfed. I hate to be addicted to EVE.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#707 - 2012-06-18 18:04:06 UTC
Gainard wrote:
Setting your drones to agressive in High sec can lead to you being concordockened.
No, that is a complete impossibility. Drones will not attack a target for no reason, and that's exactly what it takes to call CONCORD down on your head.

Quote:
ECM drones - dronebay and bandwith is limited and usually one is faced with rats, so I choose dps over ecm. My choice of course. As to having a friend in a BC/BS won't save you - if they see him they either do not attack or bring a friend or two as well.
Even EC-300s will have a better-than-decent chance of putting the ganker out of commission until CONCORD arrives, and that leaves another 25m³ for light drones, which is more than enough to deal with any highsec rats. If you friend keeps the ganker away, then he has saved you. If he brings a friend or two, the BC blows him up, and you survive those other two ships as normal. Also, since there are now three of them, their costs have increased massively, and since you have a friend, they will get nothing from the gank — no loot, no salvage, nothing. This turns it into a 100%-loss prospect, and that keeps them away (and keeps you safe) as well.

Quote:
I fit my mining barge for mining. Thats its job.
It's job is to collect ore and bring it back to the station. If you fit it for the former and not for the latter, then you're not fitting it for its job, and it should come as no surprise that it is now worse at its job than if you had balanced those two tasks.

Quote:
You obviously are not a skilled miner. I am maxed out and have a maxed out supporter. Of course I also have the best implants, ships and modules. I even sometimes mine ore instead of Ice.
…which still only means two clicks every couple of minutes. It is not a lot of work.

Quote:
I just try to voice my concerns before it happens again this time.
…and that's fair enough, but you're voicing your concerns about the things they've explicitly said they're going to address.

Oh, and CONCORD responds in 10 seconds in a 0.7 system. Being aligned means it takes zero seconds to warp out. If it takes longer, then you are not actually aligned and have most likely fallen for the most persistent and most horribly incorrect myths of EVE: that you can “passively align“ anywhere. Align = moving in the right direction at 75% max speed = instant warp.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#708 - 2012-06-18 18:29:26 UTC
Gainard wrote:
They all can, as they have more than 3k EHP.
EHP is nice, if you have time and mods that work fast enough. Otherwise just HP aply. And on top of that, the Mackinaw is a poor tanker, without the ability to use med slots.


You have no idea how the game works, do you? EHP is the amount of damage it takes to kill you. The Mackinaw can easily tank any solo destroyer gank.

Quote:

Set drones to agressive
Setting your drones to agressive in High sec can lead to you being concordockened. I actually keep them in the drone bay unless attacked by rats.

Set ECM drones to agressive, or bring a friend in something with sebos.
A tanked hulk with either a friend in a fast locking Gank BC or RR ship means Alpha is required (in fact, 6 Tornados are required.
ECM drones - dronebay and bandwith is limited and usually one is faced with rats, so I choose dps over ecm. My choice of course. As to having a friend in a BC/BS won't save you - if they see him they either do not attack or bring a friend or two as well.


If they don't attack, you don't get ganked. Sounds good to me.

Quote:

So stop fitting and flying your ship bad, and you have everything you want.
I fit my mining barge for mining. Thats its job. As for avoiding being scrambled: a mining barge should be fitted for mining and not for anti ECM or anti frig or anti what ever - fit a ship for its purpose. Try to fit it to suit all all purposes and it will fit none.

Nullsec is safe due to the large amount of effort expended by a large number of people.
Never said anything different. Point is, you know immediately if the new pilot is friend or not.
To do any meaningful mining you can not run each time someone appears in local - in null sec you know if it is not blue it is time to run, otherwise just mine on. In high sec gankers just push their security level high enough to not appear orange or red - if those colors appear in local I run - I am not that stupid...


There are TONs of entirely empty HS systems.

Quote:


2 clicks every ten minutes. Oh, the horror.
You obviously are not a skilled miner. I am maxed out and have a maxed out supporter. Of course I also have the best implants, ships and modules. I even sometimes mine ore instead of Ice.


Ok, so it's 2 clicks every 5m (or 4 clicks every 10, emptying just before a second cycle hits and just after) mining Ice or 2 clicks every 2m (or 4 clicks every 4m). I repeat, Oh, the Horror.

Quote:

Seriously? They said that they'd be buffing the yield of the Procurer/Retriever. Might want to wait to see the numbers before you **** yourself over them.

Actuallz I believe thez are going to push them. However, I say: kill them while the are small - I did not say anything about the new unified inventory until I had to deal with this s**t. I just try to voice my concerns before it happens again this time.

Mining Cruisers are going the way of the Dodo, replaced by an Ore Frig.
Mining cruisers will go that way... unless modified as suggested. As for mining frigs - frigs by definition are small. I would not use a mini to deliver ore to a steel manufacturing plant, I' d use a resonably sized truck.

If they're a waste of slots, don't use them... *gasp*
Nice to see you can be impressed!

Scrambled industrial ships die unless CONCORD responds quickly. In areas without CONCORD, they just die. The trick is to not get scrambled.
Concord does respond too slow - Lost a Mackinaw in a 0.7 System though being aligned. Watching local and warping out when a ship appears in the vicinity that is not an industrial is not always working, they just take to much time for everything. As for fitting see above...


I meant that CCP is planning to be rid of mining bonused ships outside the ORE line. Mining Cruisers will no longer exist. Until you see the stats for the Mining Frig, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to assume it's going to lead into Barges pretty comfortably.

You have no idea what aligned is, do you? If you are aligned, you can wait until they start locking you, and still get out. You will warp instantly.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#709 - 2012-06-18 18:33:54 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:
1.
How many ship have in EVE just one mid slot ? Check this out.

2. The problem is the drake blob. Why ? Because the drake is the best solution if you have enough members and not need too much learning time, so the newbees can easily using them after short learning period and they will increasing those drake blob numbers.

3. Wait. methought the short range weapon have better DPS than long range. So, you are wrong.
Every other ceptor can use long range weapon systems and every ceptor have bonuses for those weapon systems, except Malediction.

4. No, they still ridiculously slow. They useabled at station camp and gatecamp (except just few ship arazu etc), but when need to fight out of station/gate range they have poor performance, because they are slow and the webs not slowing downt the targets too fast. So they reach to optimum shot range too slow and this is huge disadvantage than any other ships.
Just asking yourself if you would two opportunities:

Fly with a very slow boat with huge short range DPS, but never can't reach the enemy or a faster ship with common DPS which can dictate range and dont lose his DPS when shot farther range.

I guess slow boat which is lost his DPS over 20km and can't reach his target it's a bad choice.
No matter how big your DPS if you can't hit anything.
This would be a bad approach from an engineer, if would want to build a slow boat with very short range weapons.

It's same, when heavy cavalry is dissapeared which changed onto a more mobile tactical unit.


You didn't really address any of the points I was making.

1.) All I said was that people get plenty of kills with a one-midslot coercer. It's not a requirement for being a viable ship. Yes, it may be the *only* ship that has that layout, but "everyone else has one" isn't a reason to buff something. You have to first prove that the lack of a the second mid cripples the ship.

2.) Other's have already said this so I don't need to repeat it, but just because a ship is used in a fleet doctrine doesnt mean its OP. (Believe me, no one relishes the thought of a Drake nerf more than me - but it needs to be justified, a specific change for a specific reason). Saying "gobs of noobs use them" is not logic that will ever be used to balance a ship, I'm just explaining how the dev's work.

3.) Wait, what? My point was that tackle interceptors are not designed for applying DPS to their target. That is the job of Assault ships, or any other number of ship. As for the "short range > long range DPS" comment, feel free to mount light missile launchers on it if you like. See what kind of DPS you get when compared to rockets. It doesnt really matter, if you're attempting to fit enough DPS on your fleet inty to kill the ship you're tackling, you're doing it wrong. Fleet inty's are designed for obtaining and holding point, for the rest of the fleet to finish off. Your job is to *survive*. The enemy will have drones on you. I'd love to see you attempt to stave off a wing of warrior II's with railguns, artillery, and light missile launchers. 125mm's, gatling pulse lazers, small blasters, and rockets work much better for this purpose.

4.) You dont have to explain why Gallente ships need speed to me, I understand that. I was just explaining that CCP just got finished buffing speed, that's all. *Why* Gallente ships need speed is a separate issue from whether or not CCP is going to buff it a second time before tackling the other issues that Gallente ships struggle with.


How you got CSM membership ?
God save us.

1. Again the killmail whoring is not count. I have 18k kills with 3 char. I know Eve how working.
I killed with coercer over 300 ships (at least 130 in 1v1), but atleast i lost 80% of kills because the coercer the only one pvp ship wich has just 1 middle slot. And you just think abouit i'm was just the one who tried prove this, you wrong.
If you are in FW you should be know this.

2.
I dont believe you, because i know why is the most favored ship the Drake. You say untruth things, there is the datas read it. "The problem is the drake blob. Why ? Because the drake is the best solution if you have enough members and not need too much learning time, so the newbees can easily using them after short learning period and they will increasing those drake blob numbers."

And yes overpowered : This is datas telling everything from drake:

"http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/Drake3LSE.jpg and you said this ship is not overpowered.
232.5 passive shield HP regenerations / seconds it's a bad joke too (2615HP/11.25sec). 2x large armor repairer (not medium) can healing 1600HP/11.25 sec." At least this ridiculous shield recharge need to fix.

3.
Oh wait, how many pilots flying today with malediction. Those ships have very-very resounding success.
That's why noone want to use it. Better if you fly wih AC on malediction or artillery. Better DPS + better shoting range without any ship bonuses!!!

4. So,you think about it, if a gallentean ship got cosmetics changes which is not fixing the real gallente problems, not need second revision of those changes, because CCP finished speed fix ?
Do it your job that's why you are CSM member.
None ofthe Above
#710 - 2012-06-18 18:50:59 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:


You are wrong. That is not arguments, that's truth and no matter you like it or not.
The drakes overpowered. That's why 0.0 alliances using them.
Easily to tank them with logistics, they have infinity cap (fleet doctrines), they have relative long shoting range. They have ridiculous large HP than other BCs.
Those informations at hyperlinks not lying and the +500 drake fleets it's a real problem already.
And dont forget do you asked datas with your another character and you told you dont belive for a twitter blog. The eve killnet top20 datas and the other ones not lying. So, try harder your evade.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/Drake3LSE.jpg and you said this ship is not overpowered.
232.5 passive shield HP regenerations / seconds it's a bad joke too (2615HP/11.25sec). 2x large armor repairer (not medium) can healing 1600HP/11.25 sec.
So what do you talk about it ?


Not a bad bit of EFT warrioring. A bit of a LOL fit, but not too imbalanced.

I suppose you think the Mael and Nado are overpowered too, otherwise why would 0.0 alliances use them? Those fleets can if properly FCed, do some serious damage to a Drake fleet by all accounts. So still need seeing this as an OMG ONOES gamebreaking situation worthy of your zealous Drake hating campaign. Since I don't argue religion with those that can't see reason, I am out of this conversation. Buh-bye.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#711 - 2012-06-18 19:40:29 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:

Gallentean ships need much love. Make them faster and agile, that's need for their short range weapon system.
After speed nerf and web nerf these ships got disadvantages.

Have you tried using the new light and medium web drones with the Gallente blaster boats?

The aggregate effect of the web drones plus a standard scram/web is sufficient to slow down most opponents, allowing the blaster boat to actually get into range and stay there.

True, you lose some DPS by switching from combat drones to web drones, but this is rather negligible when using a full rack of blasters and completely offset by the ability to get within blaster range faster.

True, the web drones are rather fragile and don't last long when targeted, but a blaster boat also doesn't need much time to take down most opponents, once within optimal range.

Just a suggestion, not an argument.
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#712 - 2012-06-18 20:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
None ofthe Above wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:


You are wrong. That is not arguments, that's truth and no matter you like it or not.
The drakes overpowered. That's why 0.0 alliances using them.
Easily to tank them with logistics, they have infinity cap (fleet doctrines), they have relative long shoting range. They have ridiculous large HP than other BCs.
Those informations at hyperlinks not lying and the +500 drake fleets it's a real problem already.
And dont forget do you asked datas with your another character and you told you dont belive for a twitter blog. The eve killnet top20 datas and the other ones not lying. So, try harder your evade.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/Drake3LSE.jpg and you said this ship is not overpowered.
232.5 passive shield HP regenerations / seconds it's a bad joke too (2615HP/11.25sec). 2x large armor repairer (not medium) can healing 1600HP/11.25 sec.
So what do you talk about it ?


Not a bad bit of EFT warrioring. A bit of a LOL fit, but not too imbalanced.

I suppose you think the Mael and Nado are overpowered too, otherwise why would 0.0 alliances use them? Those fleets can if properly FCed, do some serious damage to a Drake fleet by all accounts. So still need seeing this as an OMG ONOES gamebreaking situation worthy of your zealous Drake hating campaign. Since I don't argue religion with those that can't see reason, I am out of this conversation. Buh-bye.



EFT warrioring ? I'm not need EFT, just you need it, i have 9 years experience, i can fly with all ship witt full skills and i using them already. Maybe you need tools for sumarize 2x large repairer healing rate.

And you talk about minmatar ships. Yes those ship is OPed too because of weapon systems. That's why using them almost the all alliance in 0.0. Huge alpha or too long falloffs.
Just see this.

Most used weapons:

1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 35322
2 425mm AutoCannon II 22408
3 200mm AutoCannon II 15709
4 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 10989
5 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 10820
6 150mm Light AutoCannon II 10518
7 Mega Pulse Laser II 9846
8 Heavy Pulse Laser II 9550
9 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 9301
10 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 8973

7 weapons of 10 is projectile weapon, this is coincidence for you. LOL But what we expected from an inexpertly player.

Every one know why dissapearing ship types from battlefields, because those ships worsen than the used ships.
Thats why the alliances using drakes and not harbingers or ferox because drakes much better (OPed) than any other BC almost all situation except Canes when need huge DPS against capital ships from short range and need neutralize them.
Just check 0.0 fleet fights or try to move to 0.0 from your high sec and see those drake blobs.

And you wrong again, this is not drake hate campaign this is the truth. But for you 232HP/1sec passive shield HP regenerations it's normal thing when thats much-much larger than 2x large repairer healing rate for battleships and 4x bigger than 2x medium repairer healing rate what the BCs can use. LOL
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#713 - 2012-06-18 20:20:46 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
How you got CSM membership ?
God save us.


God cannot help you now!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!

Twisted

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#714 - 2012-06-18 20:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
Sizeof Void wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:

Gallentean ships need much love. Make them faster and agile, that's need for their short range weapon system.
After speed nerf and web nerf these ships got disadvantages.

Have you tried using the new light and medium web drones with the Gallente blaster boats?

The aggregate effect of the web drones plus a standard scram/web is sufficient to slow down most opponents, allowing the blaster boat to actually get into range and stay there.

True, you lose some DPS by switching from combat drones to web drones, but this is rather negligible when using a full rack of blasters and completely offset by the ability to get within blaster range faster.

True, the web drones are rather fragile and don't last long when targeted, but a blaster boat also doesn't need much time to take down most opponents, once within optimal range.

Just a suggestion, not an argument.


First you need to move to scrambler range, but that is very hard when your opponent is faster than you.
Thx your suggestion but do you know how hard to move to shoting range when the opponent using on your slow gallentean ship web drones too.
Thats working vica-versa and give ability for your enemy to slowing you too.
Yune Tillertin
Doomheim
#715 - 2012-06-18 21:06:00 UTC
.
At long last

The balance is going to be restored

In the past it took a Battleship to gank a miner and that has droped down to a just a Destroyer.

The cost of ganking will now go back to where it was.

Too long the gankers has had a cheap and easey way to kill expensive mining ships.



I can see lots of Hulk miners switching to Macks when these balance restoring improvements are implimented.

and a lot of macks changing to hulks.


i will be most interested in seeing what other changes to the mining ships abilites and fittings.


....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#716 - 2012-06-18 21:27:13 UTC
Yune Tillertin wrote:
At long last
The balance is going to be restored
In the past it took a Battleship to gank a miner and that has droped down to a just a Destroyer.
The cost of ganking will now go back to where it was.
Too long the gankers has had a cheap and easey way to kill expensive mining ships.
…except that none of that had anything to do with changes in the ships; except that it takes a lot more to kill a miner now than it did back then; and that back in the day, it was cheaper to gank with those battleships than it is with destroyers now.

Then again, looking at the standard miner's response to these changes, chances are that it will be easier than ever before to gank them… Lol
Lili Lu
#717 - 2012-06-18 21:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
None ofthe Above wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Sigh...For ****'s sake [facepalm]


Yes facepalm, because you wrote idiotic things.

You want to proof ? Drake Rebalance Topic

Check the datas. Everything was wrote there earlier.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

1 Drake 95646 kills (almost double numbers than any ships)

Most used weapons:

1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 34381

The drakes is OP, need rebalance and nerf. The buff of cruisers not help for this problem.
500+ drake fleets in 0.0. Drake blobs everywhere and the missile spam eat server resources more than any gunboat fleet.

And stop those arguments, how you playing 3.5 years ago. Many players playing with this game more than 9 years ago, just like me too.


Your link leads to a thread of arguments from people who are on both sides of this argument, hardly proof of any conclusion.

As for stats, Hurricane and Drake used to be fairly neck and neck, until a certain large alliance started fielding huge fleets of them. Did the Drake suddenly become OP at that point? Frequency =/= OP. After they are done with the Drake (and once CCP gets it in their head to nerf something they usually go way too far), I presume you would be screaming just as loudly to nerf the Hurricane as it becomes the fleet doctrine whelp-BC?

As for lag and server resources, are you seriously going to say the Drake is OP due to server resource use? That's more a problem for CCP to fix, and to my understanding they have made great strides in that direction.

The drake is a good ship. But there are plenty of other good ships out there. Don't start the fail-cascade of nerfing anything that works for balance's sake, because when that cycle is done all we have left are crap ships and stories from old timers who lament about the good old days when there where ships that where good to fly.

o/ None ofthe Above. A certain person who's posts I'm no longer reading Lol was worried that I had terribly hurt your feelings. Hope you're doing ok.P

Anyway, that person was just sure that Ribi is my evil "sock puppet" in posting support for my views. I'm posting this not to argue further with you about Drakes. Neither one of us will convince the other to come over to the dark side on this issue. I'm posting this instead to explain why Ribi must have made the post which you quoted. It links to another thread where Ribi and I actually had a misunderstanding (near the end of the thread). Ergo, Ribi is no sock puppet of mine. Also, it's ok Ribi and I are e-friends now.

I must confess however that I've always wanted a sock puppet, or to be someone else's sock puppet. Socks are wonderful things and in no way overpowered. Don't nerf socks! On that I hope we can all agree. o/
None ofthe Above
#718 - 2012-06-18 22:53:41 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

o/ None ofthe Above. A certain person who's posts I'm no longer reading Lol was worried that I had terribly hurt your feelings. Hope you're doing ok.P


Thank you for your concern. Just fine here.

Do have to admit I don't comprehend the antidrake religious fervor, and have a limited amount of patience for repetition of previous threads. All rather off topic for now since the BCs won't be touched for quite sometime.

Fly safe and don't let those evil drakes get you!

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Lyric Lahnder
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#719 - 2012-06-18 23:20:37 UTC
CCP take note:

Proper Ship iteration and balancing = Happy customers.

Happy customers = More money

Continue balancing

and carry on.

Noir. and Noir Academy are recruiting apply at www.noirmercs.com I Noir Academy: 60 days old must be able to fly at least one tech II frigate. I Noir. Recruits: 4:1 k/d ratio and can fly tech II cruisers.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#720 - 2012-06-18 23:29:10 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Sigh...For ****'s sake [facepalm]


Yes facepalm, because you wrote idiotic things.

You want to proof ? Drake Rebalance Topic

Check the datas. Everything was wrote there earlier.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

1 Drake 95646 kills (almost double numbers than any ships)

Most used weapons:

1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 34381

The drakes is OP, need rebalance and nerf. The buff of cruisers not help for this problem.
500+ drake fleets in 0.0. Drake blobs everywhere and the missile spam eat server resources more than any gunboat fleet.

And stop those arguments, how you playing 3.5 years ago. Many players playing with this game more than 9 years ago, just like me too.


***


You are wrong. That is not arguments, that's truth and no matter you like it or not.
The drakes overpowered. That's why 0.0 alliances using them.
Easily to tank them with logistics, they have infinity cap (fleet doctrines), they have relative long shoting range. They have ridiculous large HP than other BCs.
Those informations at hyperlinks not lying and the +500 drake fleets it's a real problem already.
And dont forget do you asked datas with your another character and you told you dont belive for a twitter blog. The eve killnet top20 datas and the other ones not lying. So, try harder your evade.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/Drake3LSE.jpg and you said this ship is not overpowered.
232.5 passive shield HP regenerations / seconds it's a bad joke too (2615HP/11.25sec). 2x large armor repairer (not medium) can healing 1600HP/11.25 sec.
So what do you talk about it ?


Ooooooo...kay:

This crap again.Roll

So people using a certain ship in large dullsec fleets now make it O/P. The fact that it is easy for a new-ish player to get into to help contribute to his corp's/alliances fleets with more than just light/fast tackle--although that is extremely important, it must be stressed--said newb will not be doing anywhere near that DPS, or tanking that hard, if he could even fit and use all that in the first place with low fitting-skills--at their skill-training level.

I take it you're not a low-skill newb, just as an aside? You've obviously got good fitting-skills in any case (Shield Upgrades and/or Energy Grid Upgrade to 5, AWU to at least 4, methinks, can't be arsed to check at the moment--that's not something most newbs will have trained early on.).

The newb, due to likely lack of Shield and/or Advanced Weapon Upgrade 4 at least, will probably need RCUs instead of PDUs to fit those 3 LSEs, and those add nothing to tank. They do have the same cost to low-slot DPS mods, though, which said newb, as stated, will probably do less of.

But I guess EVE has changed: The fact that "500" of damned near anything will pack one Hell of a punch, and be hard to kill (unless they're all newb-ships? I'm sure even 500 of those could still get a lolkill or three, though--NERF THE REAPER!!!111!!) is now what makes a ship O/P, apparently.

A dullsec 1337-ster says so, it's got to be true! They're the ultimate end-game players, after all! [/sarcasm]

More implied appeal to authority, you really need to try and be more subtle about that.

Lili. (/Me grins cynically]

Anyway, I guess that makes Rifters, AHACs, DICTOR/HICTOR, ArtyCane, "Hellcat," (Insert whichever ship you suddenly decide you don't like here), O/P too?

Learn how missiles work, especially Furies, and then get on SiSi, target something 50+ km away, shoot, and see how much more "self-balancing" the number one drawback to missiles in general--delayed damage-on-target--enforces same further.

Hint: Target at range has time to light off speed mod, and that will mitigate at least some damage, and he doesn't even have to worry about direction, just magnitude.

Oh yeah, tanking:

Look at that signature-radius again. Look up the turret-tracking formula. Plug the former into the latter, along with the relevant parameters for your typical track/blap-Titan.

There's a reason Drakes tend--or maybe I should say tended?--to be the blap-Titan's favourite food, at least from what I heard prior to those being nerfed. Unlike the Drake, those needed to be nerfed, but even I--as much as I despise the dullsec 1337-crowd and everything they represent--am willing to consider that the nerf may have gone too far.

That's another problem with this foolishness: When CCP finally decides that it needs to nerf something, they have a nasty tendency of going way the f overboard (example: Dramiel capacitor and fitting-capacity--like seriously, wtf?), and doing the same here will have massive consequences throughout a huge portion of the player-base that they really can't afford right now.

But that's enough for now, at least from me*:

You bore me, generic 1337-ster troll/sockpuppet/whatever/whomever you actually are.

(Not like it matters, you're all exactly the bloody same, anyway.)

And None ofthe Above, one of our community's genuine ::Official GoodPoasters(TM):: is pwning you quite elegantly, so I'll leave you to...(/Me chuckles)...well, to try and "tank" it as it were. Blink

*Where is Liang Nuren, by the way--With all due repsect to other good posters/posts in this thread, the last threads full of these "NERFTEHZOPMGOPDRAEK!!!!111onoone!!" idiots, got so elegantly, yet so decisively savaged by her/him, in her/his typically delighfully calm, well-reasoned style, and that made for great lols!



Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.