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New dev blog: Ship balancing summer update

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#421 - 2012-06-14 23:21:45 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Since there's an excess of t1 frigate hulls, why can't we have a cloaky ewar frigate and a ganky ewar frigate? Or a frigate sized logi?

because the current t2 ewar frigates are the most useless ships in the game

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Olleybear
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#422 - 2012-06-14 23:23:14 UTC
Loving the proposed changes in the dev blog. Looking forward to them.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#423 - 2012-06-14 23:25:59 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
@ Gizznitt - Balancing frigates is fine. It is not though a necessary precursor to fixing, even temprarilly glaring usage disparities in other ship classes. Small, relatively easy nerfs or buffs can be handed out as temprorary bandaids.



While I'm not denying that the balance between t1/t2/t3 cruisers and BC's is out of whack, I don't see the state of these so blatantly broken that CCP needs to prioritize them. In my experiences, temporary bandaids often cause additional disparities, as they hide the problem rather than address it.

I also understand that BC's and cruisers are the most commonly flown hulls, and so their rebalancing is anxiously awaited. However, I think starting off with frigs has many MAJOR benefits.

1.) It allows them to refine their reblancing process, get the kinks out, learn where the pitfalls are, etc, BEFORE messing with the most popularly flown ships in the game.

2.) Frigates are quickly accessible to new players, and by creating a balanced and diverse frigate lineup, I think you improve the new player experience.

3.) Frigates are cheap, and the excitement over their new capabilities is more likely to draw players into small gang and solo PvP (which is by far the best PvP!!!).
TalosC
Argo Navis Ltd.
#424 - 2012-06-14 23:26:46 UTC
Hello,

Adding more content (ship/mods etc) is always welcome MMO games.
I like the idea of the new specialized mining frig and I believe that a cruiser class (Gas harvesting bonus perhaps) could be added sometime.

The developer state in his post that they want to give in mining ships roles, make those ships more resilience in combat situations (NPC or PVP gang), have more cargo bay and better yeld. Sounds interesting and promising.

In his follow paragraph he says:

- New ORE frig: we want this ship to replace current mining frigates as low barrier of entry vessel, but also fulfill high-end gameplay expectations by providing a very mobile platform for mining in hostile space. Lowest mining output, decent ore bay, little to no resilience.
- Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP.
- Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge.
- Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.

I've some questions about the upcoming improvements:

A) The new ship is a good start for new players. It looks like a yellow crab ;)
Any idea about the slots (low/med/high), drones capabilities etc?

B) Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense ==> As we know those ships have 1 Med slot for tank. Are we going to see an improved ship with more Med slot for tank? Also Skiff are ideal ship to harvest Mercoxit, so it's already specialized.

C) Retriever/Mackinaw : made for self-reliance ==> By saying "cargo similar to a jetcan (27.500 M3) it means: a) that the need for hauling are reducing drastically, b) the size of ship are increasing due to bigger bay and c) more Med slots perhaps for his tank.

D) Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold ==> Those ships has bonuses on yeld and if the 'rule' : " Mining output: first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently " is about to apply on those ships then they will definitely need a larger bay (not a jetcan size).

Many people says that Mackinaw designed for ICE mining while Hulk stands for ORE. I totally agree. Perhaps improving Mackinaw CPU/PG to fully support T2 ICE equipment and more tank modules could be great.

At the moment the drone bay in mining barges can hold from 1 up to 5 light drones. Is any plan to see in all barges larger drone bay and bandwidth? Since the flagship of ORE ships uses Gallentean Ice product ( for his Jump drive engine ) and all the ships has Gallentean roots, is any possibility the mining barges can adopt a bonus to drones? Ex. "x%" in drone navigation. Any idea for adding in T2 variants 3 RIG slots?

Finally are any plan to see new textures in mining barges? Any new modules/structures for mining?
Regards
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#425 - 2012-06-14 23:27:06 UTC
you dont need to rebalance the coercer and the cormorant cause the thrasher and catalyst are inferior in every singly way. (except the no point on coercer[EVEN THO YOU DONT EVEN NEED A POINT you noobs])


please do not rebalance destroyers because the only thing keeping the minmatar militia at bay is the fact that we have better destroyers than them coercer and cormorant.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#426 - 2012-06-14 23:27:56 UTC
TalosC wrote:
...



i think it is a safe assumption the midslot loadouts of all mining barges (T1 and T2) will be fairly different after the tweaks.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
MentaL DoG
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#427 - 2012-06-14 23:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
This post has been cleaned up just a bit. Please, no off topic posting. -ISD Dorrim Bastorlode

Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe.VOTE D3 FOR CSM Chair

hahahahah Sorry so Sorry mittani
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#428 - 2012-06-14 23:36:22 UTC
TalosC wrote:
Hello,

Adding more content (ship/mods etc) is always welcome MMO games.
I like the idea of the new specialized mining frig and I believe that a cruiser class (Gas harvesting bonus perhaps) could be added sometime.

The developer state in his post that they want to give in mining ships roles, make those ships more resilience in combat situations (NPC or PVP gang), have more cargo bay and better yeld. Sounds interesting and promising.

In his follow paragraph he says:

- New ORE frig: we want this ship to replace current mining frigates as low barrier of entry vessel, but also fulfill high-end gameplay expectations by providing a very mobile platform for mining in hostile space. Lowest mining output, decent ore bay, little to no resilience.
- Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP.
- Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge.
- Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.

I've some questions about the upcoming improvements:

A) The new ship is a good start for new players. It looks like a yellow crab ;)
Any idea about the slots (low/med/high), drones capabilities etc?

B) Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense ==> As we know those ships have 1 Med slot for tank. Are we going to see an improved ship with more Med slot for tank? Also Skiff are ideal ship to harvest Mercoxit, so it's already specialized.

C) Retriever/Mackinaw : made for self-reliance ==> By saying "cargo similar to a jetcan (27.500 M3) it means: a) that the need for hauling are reducing drastically, b) the size of ship are increasing due to bigger bay and c) more Med slots perhaps for his tank.

D) Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold ==> Those ships has bonuses on yeld and if the 'rule' : " Mining output: first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently " is about to apply on those ships then they will definitely need a larger bay (not a jetcan size).

Many people says that Mackinaw designed for ICE mining while Hulk stands for ORE. I totally agree. Perhaps improving Mackinaw CPU/PG to fully support T2 ICE equipment and more tank modules could be great.

At the moment the drone bay in mining barges can hold from 1 up to 5 light drones. Is any plan to see in all barges larger drone bay and bandwidth? Since the flagship of ORE ships uses Gallentean Ice product ( for his Jump drive engine ) and all the ships has Gallentean roots, is any possibility the mining barges can adopt a bonus to drones? Ex. "x%" in drone navigation. Any idea for adding in T2 variants 3 RIG slots?

Finally are any plan to see new textures in mining barges? Any new modules/structures for mining?
Regards



if the procurer could get a larger drone bay i could make it a fairly dangerous little ship (especially with a couple more mids another high and it keeps the small sig radius)

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
MentaL DoG
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#429 - 2012-06-14 23:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Off topic posts aren't cool, ok? -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe.VOTE D3 FOR CSM Chair

hahahahah Sorry so Sorry mittani
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#430 - 2012-06-14 23:40:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
We're already over 20 pages in so who knows if anyone will read this but I only just got home!

Quote:
Executioner, Condor, Atron, Slasher: role dedicated to fast interception with weapon systems that support it – in order, energy turrets, missiles, hybrid turrets, projectile turrets.

If the range is 'dedicated to fast interception', why is it getting weapon bonuses? Wouldn't bonuses to things like speed, agility, the capacitor usage of MWDs, warp disruptor and stasis web range/cap usage, sig radius reductions etc, be more appropriate?

Quote:
Navitas, Bantam, Burst: long range offensive platforms

There was an interesting idea which Grady Eltoren posted and I expanded on in F&ID about converting these hulls into the second destroyer for each race to act as a quick-fix to both the overcrowded frigate range and the lack of destroyer hulls. Take a look!

Quote:
Inquisitor, Breacher, Kestrel, Tristan: missile based ships –

I feel the need to challenge the underlying assumption here - why does any race apart from Caldari need dedicated missile platforms? There aren't, say, dedicated frigate droneboats across the board in the same way, and I'm sure many new Gallente or Amarr pilots get frustrated at seeing a missile frigate, training into it, then realising they've essentially poured skillpoints into a dead-end since there's nothing more that really uses missile skills for those races until they hit stealth bombers or the Lachesis/Sacrilege. I would be much more in favour of making these into the 'long range offensive platforms' you're currently looking at reworking the mining frigates into, with the Kestrel getting missile range and the other three getting turret hardpoints and optimal bonuses.

Quote:
Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe: strengthening current roles as support frigates. Which mainly means scanning and possibly mini-profession operations, like hacking and codebreaking as well.

How useful these will be depends largely on whether new roles for hacking/codebreaking type activities emerge in the future (possibly some PvP-orientated roles?). If not, they'll languish in relative obscurity as they do now as little more than base hulls to invent covops' from, but I can appreciate there's not an obvious alternative niche for these to be slotted into.

Quote:
Crucifier, Griffin, Maulus, Vigil: truly refocus their roles as disruption frigates. The Cruficier is being changed to a mini-arbitrator (swapping useless turret capacitor use bonus for drone damage). The Griffin has a fine role already, but like the others, will receive a boost. The Maulus improvement consists of having a look at sensor dampening, which was nerfed too heavily in the past, and possibly making it rely more on drones than turrets. The Vigil could be the most combat oriented of the disruption frigates by improving its target painting bonus and creating synergy by coupling it with missiles.

Again, why weapon bonuses and damage boosts for dedicated e-war platforms? How does this help to 'truly refocus their role as disruption frigates' if they're lumbered with a mix of bonuses which encourage pilots to attempt multiple roles at once? Wouldn't it make more sense to double down on the e-war bonuses (as well as giving the Other Three tailored bonus amounts rather than the flat 5% per level across the board, as has already happened with the Griffin)?

Thanks for the update, and I'm glad that the poor neglected T1 frigates are getting some attention after all these years, but I'm not sure you're on the right path here. I'm sure I'll have more to say when threads are posted in F&ID though.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Lili Lu
#431 - 2012-06-14 23:41:40 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
@ Gizznitt - Balancing frigates is fine. It is not though a necessary precursor to fixing, even temprarilly glaring usage disparities in other ship classes. Small, relatively easy nerfs or buffs can be handed out as temprorary bandaids.



While I'm not denying that the balance between t1/t2/t3 cruisers and BC's is out of whack, I don't see the state of these so blatantly broken that CCP needs to prioritize them. In my experiences, temporary bandaids often cause additional disparities, as they hide the problem rather than address it.

I also understand that BC's and cruisers are the most commonly flown hulls, and so their rebalancing is anxiously awaited. However, I think starting off with frigs has many MAJOR benefits.

1.) It allows them to refine their reblancing process, get the kinks out, learn where the pitfalls are, etc, BEFORE messing with the most popularly flown ships in the game.

2.) Frigates are quickly accessible to new players, and by creating a balanced and diverse frigate lineup, I think you improve the new player experience.

3.) Frigates are cheap, and the excitement over their new capabilities is more likely to draw players into small gang and solo PvP (which is by far the best PvP!!!).

Yeah we don't disagree on your numbered points concerning frigates. I will disagree with your assessment that "BC's and cruisers are the most commonly flown hulls." Really it is just BCs, and in particular the Drake and the Hurricane in that order. CCP finally woke up to the rush past frigates, past cruisers, straight to BCs, and particularly the Drake.

Temporary fixes do not necesarily cause additional disparites or mask problems. I do not see how nerfing the drake would cause problems. The simplest thing would be just rewrite the hp stats. Reduce the base shield, armor and structure stats on the tier 2 BCs to that of their tier 1 counterpart. Simple change, which will knock them down a peg. Then continue with the grand plan or tiericide at each level. They will all still have an extra slot on the tier 1s, but they won't stomp on them as much. Drakes would still have one more mid and the resist bonus. But the ehp would no longer be a BS size. That might be enough to push them out of fleet backbone status. How hard is that? Does it cause additional disparities? I don't think so, and it does not hide the need to continue with role based rebalancing of BCs later.
Alain Kinsella
#432 - 2012-06-14 23:41:53 UTC
Only page 15 so far, but this was good to quote (thanks Tippia).

Tippia wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
No, they are meant to be used as I like.
…except that the whole point of tiercide and of this change is that each ship will have a well-defined role.

The new role defined for the Hulk/Covetor is group mining. You can use it any way you like, but if you push it outside its role, it will be bad at it. This is no different than trying to use a HIC for remote reps and trying to use Logistics for tackling — it can be done, but it's the wrong ships for the wrong tasks. If you want to mine alone, a Retreiever/Mack will suit your purpose far better.

Basically, everyone needs to get the idea of “Hulk = best miner” out of their heads, because the differentiation between ships will no longer work like that.


+1 here. Hulk/Covetor as 'group miner' will probably partial-nerf the cargo bay so you cannot fit a full flight of crystals. The rest of those crystals will reside in the nearby Orca in the fleet.

And there's nothing wrong with going down to T1 strips if you don't want to deal with crystals that day; In return you'll have a little more space for tank etc. I still think the new crimewatch changes could encourage any miner with a spare Mid fit a long-point. Pirate

BTW, CCP - Please put the corp permissions back on the hangar 'tabs' in the tree... Cool We'll need this more than ever.

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).
MentaL DoG
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#433 - 2012-06-14 23:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Please refrain from off topic posting. Thank you. -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe.VOTE D3 FOR CSM Chair

hahahahah Sorry so Sorry mittani
Alain Kinsella
#434 - 2012-06-14 23:48:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
I figured this would eventually end up as some sperg-fest with miners claiming "tears" and making all sorts of baseless, idiotic claims, and I'm sad to see I'm right. Oh well, guess I'll just wait for all this to hit Sisi.

Definitely going to train for that mining frigate though, at the very least just to fly it around.


Ironicly its miners who are shedding the most tearsUgh


That's because they're not thinking outside the box. All I see are great visions of large, balanced fleets, almost entirely ORE ships (with the attendant cloud of drones), and only needing a couple tackle and logi to hold out for the average op.

I'm practically giddy, and very much looking forward to this.

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).
Maul555
Xen Investments
#435 - 2012-06-14 23:48:33 UTC
I noticed 6 mining turret hardpoints on the mining frig. I am hoping for 7 highslots ^^ Cool
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#436 - 2012-06-14 23:55:16 UTC
These changes are pretty awesome,

One thing, Barges are based upon Gal ships or so I believe. Ore being a off shoot from them. So with people asking for weapons systems on things like hulks along side their mining lazors. Couldn't you just make Mining Lazors damage another ship at X DPS or Give them a Drone bonus given thats their only real weapons system?

Hulk +1 Drone per level? and increased bay so 10 Warriors and 10 Mining Drones?

From my understanding, it read like ALL barges would be getting an increase in their base EHP, but each would differ based on their role.

Hulk High Yield less EHP, Skiff More EHP Less yield, but all of them greater then current, Is this correct? Also on this note given that they are base on Gal ships, they have alot of hull hit points so maybe instead of shield resist bonuses, Damage Control Bonus? First hull tanked bonused ship ever?

I also have to ask, with all barges getting Ore bays, this makes Cargo expanders useless on these ships, as well as cargo expander rigs. Will you be looking into a new module that increases only Ore Bays or will barges ore bays be so big this sort of mod would make them somewhat stupid?

Last thing, With you looking into the barges, does this mean a change to slot lay out? Increased yield meaning more base? or Extra high slot depending on there role?

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Lili Lu
#437 - 2012-06-14 23:56:58 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
decent analysis

You should read back through the thread, if you get a chance or have the timeLol. I thought the same about each race getting a missile frig or a drone frig at first. I'm more open to the idea as I thought more about it. Such a race difference destroying distribution cannot be extended to the current lineup of cruisers, BCs, and BSs simply due to numbers. And, frigate sized weapon sp is no longer a big deal since the abolition of the learning skills. In particular you could read my posts at #257 and #299 itt discussing the same issue.
Lili Lu
#438 - 2012-06-14 23:58:04 UTC
MentaL DoG wrote:
NO MORE POSTING THIS THREAD IS BLOCKED

I think you mean to say LOCKED. Get back in character P
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#439 - 2012-06-15 00:05:05 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
I noticed 6 mining turret hardpoints on the mining frig. I am hoping for 7 highslots ^^ Cool


Good eye, Maul. I didn't notice the 6 turret hardpoints, but now that the new mining frigate is my desktop background, I see it well. I love the design. Six turrets will significantly increase the capacity to allow for dual mining/defensive roles in group industrial ops. It still may not be enough yield to entice industrialists to devote resources to piloting them en masse, but it'll still be good for the new player experience and it's a good start at giving industrialists options to engage.

YK
Maul555
Xen Investments
#440 - 2012-06-15 00:08:26 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
I noticed 6 mining turret hardpoints on the mining frig. I am hoping for 7 highslots ^^ Cool


Good eye, Maul. I didn't notice the 6 turret hardpoints, but now that the new mining frigate is my desktop background, I see it well. I love the design. Six turrets will significantly increase the capacity to allow for dual mining/defensive roles in group industrial ops. It still may not be enough yield to entice industrialists to devote resources to piloting them en masse, but it'll still be good for the new player experience and it's a good start at giving industrialists options to engage.

YK


Looking again, it might be 3 turret points, with physical representations for both sides of the ship, hence seeing 6... In that case I hope it has very good bonuses and 4 high slots ^^