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New dev blog: Ship balancing summer update

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Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#361 - 2012-06-14 19:43:34 UTC
One concern is mining barge agility. Having a nice big buffer tank is pointless when the main defense is agility to warp out. I am all for barges having huge tanks so they can last while the protection fleet engages the attackers. But if the barge can be in warp long before an attacker can even land in the belt, there is no need for a protection fleet or a big tank.

Give the barges the big tank, but nerf the **** out of their agility so the tank has a point. Also don't allow mining lasers to activate if the ship is above 20% top speed.

Maybe my specific suggestions are off, but I hope everyone understands the point.
Serenity Arsten
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#362 - 2012-06-14 19:46:51 UTC
New Destroyers??!!?? I may have to train that up, then...

p.s., As mentioned earlier; some pictures of said "New Destroyers" would be fan-frikkin-tastic.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#363 - 2012-06-14 19:53:04 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Henry Haphorn wrote:


In addition to my Hulk comment, I also don't want to see any tank buffs on the Hulk as it is already capable of achieving over 30,000 EHP with the right skills and mods. Those who always complain about the Hulk's lack of tank happens to be those who always fit cargo rigs and cargo mods (these take away tank) then complain why a cruiser took out their Hulk.


no.. all mining barges should receive a buff to their innate tank - they're cruiser sized hulls. that being said

skiff - battleship like tank
mackinaw - battlecruiser sized tank
hulk: weak cruiser sized tank

for base tanks.. then mod how you want. add some new modules that increase ore bay at a meaningful cost to tank, maybe some mining rigs that hurt tank too.

CCP already stated they're going to make the mining yield spread much closer than it is now.


1. The Hulk, Mackinaw, and Skiff are not mining barges. They are exhumers (T2). Get it right. Although the blog does mention them, the changes seem to imply that the barges are going to be more specialized like the exhumers rather than being a kid's bike with training wheels.

2. These are mining ships, not combat ships. The Procurer/Skiff are the only exception to that statement as they are meant more for sneaking into low-sec space, mine, and getting out fast. The changes in the blog help compliment their purpose. In the case of the Hulk, it's meant more for operating in null-sec where it has the protection of its fellow alliance, which explains the current base tank it has. Although, it can survive NPC rats in 0.0. Hell, I took a Hulk into a combat PvE mission once and it did well.

3. As for your comment about new mods that increase the bay at the expense of tank, we got that already. Their called Cargohold Optimizations and Expanded Cargoholds. They eat at your hull or armor.

Adapt or Die
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#364 - 2012-06-14 19:53:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
Tiericide has nothing to do with the Mining Barge changes
…you mean, aside from them removing the tiers from mining barges and exhumers, and giving them distinct roles rather than just be +1 to the previous model (which is exactly the point of tiercide).

Quote:
This is ship rebalancing […] CCP is defining roles for ships.
Exactly: tiercide.


Um, no. Perhaps next time if you don't selectively quote me, you will accept the possibility that you aren't right 100% of the time. I know that's a challenge for you, so I'm not optimistic, but hey, CCP is working on EVE, the spaceship game so miracles can happen.


The only piece of what is happening to Mining Barges that can be called "tiericide" is the removal of the requirement to train Mining Barge past level 1 to fly the Tech 1 barges. Tiericide is being done to ship classes while at the same time roles are being introduced to provide differentiation between ships (and theoretical usefulness). Two different things - related but not the same thing.

The difference with the discussion on the barges is that CCP is not just touching the Tech 1 ships - they are touching the Tech 2 ships as well, and those ships already had roles. Nowhere has CCP clarified if those roles are going to continue, and in fact the vague role definitions in the devblog hint that they might not.

Hence the question.

Did you follow that, or do I need to use smaller words?

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.
Torneach
Doomheim
#365 - 2012-06-14 19:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Torneach
Unforgiven Rage wrote:
Question:

When the frigs tiers are gone and these changes are in tranquility will the materials of constrution defined in the Bpos/Bpcs be ajusted to reflect this new reality of no tiers and the new ships funtionality in game? If yes when should we expect these changes?


I asked a similar question, an answer would be great, CCP. Big smile

EDIT: If they can find it in this mess of back-and-forth about the mining barges... Evil
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#366 - 2012-06-14 19:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
Um, no.
…aside from tiercide being exactly that: the removal of tiers and instead giving ships specific roles, just like they're doing with the barges and exhumers.

Quote:
The only piece of what is happening to Mining Barges that can be called "tiericide" is the removal of the requirement to train Mining Barge past level 1 to fly the Tech 1 barges. Tiericide is being done to ship classes while at the same time roles are being introduced to provide differentiation between ships (and theoretical usefulness).
…which is exactly what they're doing to the exhumers and barges.

Quote:
The difference with the discussion on the barges is that CCP is not just touching the Tech 1 ships - they are touching the Tech 2 ships as well, and those ships already had roles.
They also had tiers. Now they're removing those tiers and adjusting the roles… you know, tiercide. What they're doing to the exhumers is no different than what they're doing to the T1 frigates, and what they're doing to the barges is tiercide at its finest since those ships were only about the tiers.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#367 - 2012-06-14 20:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Maul555
CCP has not mentioned what is happening with the current Exhumer roles (Mercoxit - Skiff, Ice - Mackinaw, Ore - Hulk)... This is a fact.

Would it be possible to get some clarification?
Nyreanya
Serenity Labs
#368 - 2012-06-14 20:03:27 UTC
The mining barge changes are perfect! You should be able to sacrifice yield for more tank on different hulls. Brilliant. I'm unreasonably happy.

[/sarcasm]
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#369 - 2012-06-14 20:04:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
Um, no.
…aside from tiercide being exactly that: the removal of tiers and instead giving ships specific roles, just like they're doing with the barges and exhumers.

Quote:
The only piece of what is happening to Mining Barges that can be called "tiericide" is the removal of the requirement to train Mining Barge past level 1 to fly the Tech 1 barges. Tiericide is being done to ship classes while at the same time roles are being introduced to provide differentiation between ships (and theoretical usefulness).
…which is exactly what they're doing to the exhumers and barges.

Quote:
The difference with the discussion on the barges is that CCP is not just touching the Tech 1 ships - they are touching the Tech 2 ships as well, and those ships already had roles.
They also had tiers. Now they're removing those tiers and adjusting the roles… you know, tiercide.


So did I miss in the Devblog where you don't have to train the Exhumer skill past level 1 to fly all 3"? Hmmm.. Nope. It's not there. Therefore, tiericide does not apply to the proposed changes on the Exhumers. They already had roles, which is the "new" model CCP is following. They weren't just +1 (if that's what you want to use for your definition of tiericide).

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#370 - 2012-06-14 20:05:59 UTC
Looks good! Can't wait to test those rebalanced frigs. ORE frigate looks great!

And I really like what you're doing to mining ships. Can't wait the tear flood from gankers.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#371 - 2012-06-14 20:09:55 UTC
Heh. Look at all the "I want to be safe" miners thinkng the changes will make them safe, and their impotent chestbeating.

Bets that they will be the ones whining about the cruiser buff when it happens?

I haven't actually ganked any exhumer yet, but once these changes drop and the carebear glee is high, I may want to fix my sec status and show miners a sweet game called "bumper cars".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Alli Othman
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2012-06-14 20:10:36 UTC
Sexy, sexy changes...
There seems to be a puddle on my desk and chair now... Oops
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#373 - 2012-06-14 20:10:46 UTC
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Henry Haphorn wrote:


In addition to my Hulk comment, I also don't want to see any tank buffs on the Hulk as it is already capable of achieving over 30,000 EHP with the right skills and mods. Those who always complain about the Hulk's lack of tank happens to be those who always fit cargo rigs and cargo mods (these take away tank) then complain why a cruiser took out their Hulk.


no.. all mining barges should receive a buff to their innate tank - they're cruiser sized hulls. that being said

skiff - battleship like tank
mackinaw - battlecruiser sized tank
hulk: weak cruiser sized tank

for base tanks.. then mod how you want. add some new modules that increase ore bay at a meaningful cost to tank, maybe some mining rigs that hurt tank too.

CCP already stated they're going to make the mining yield spread much closer than it is now.


1. The Hulk, Mackinaw, and Skiff are not mining barges. They are exhumers (T2). Get it right. Although the blog does mention them, the changes seem to imply that the barges are going to be more specialized like the exhumers rather than being a kid's bike with training wheels.

2. These are mining ships, not combat ships. The Procurer/Skiff are the only exception to that statement as they are meant more for sneaking into low-sec space, mine, and getting out fast. The changes in the blog help compliment their purpose. In the case of the Hulk, it's meant more for operating in null-sec where it has the protection of its fellow alliance, which explains the current base tank it has. Although, it can survive NPC rats in 0.0. Hell, I took a Hulk into a combat PvE mission once and it did well.

3. As for your comment about new mods that increase the bay at the expense of tank, we got that already. Their called Cargohold Optimizations and Expanded Cargoholds. They eat at your hull or armor.


1) i'm sorry i'm being lazy and referring to mining barges and their high tech equivalents collectively by their T1 name. if it annoys you i will continue doing it. (if it doesn't annoy you, i will also continue doing it)

2) that old stupid argument. did i anywhere say to put guns on them? there is no reason a mining ship cannot have a ******* shielding system. stupid ass argument. it is clear from CCP's statement that they're upping the tank for everything

3) did you notice the part where i said "ore bay" not "cargo hold"?

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#374 - 2012-06-14 20:14:20 UTC
OH, and ib4 tears when bears realize there are no cargohold expander mods for ore bays (and there will most likely be none).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#375 - 2012-06-14 20:19:08 UTC
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
So did I miss in the Devblog where you don't have to train the Exhumer skill past level 1 to fly all 3"? Hmmm.. Nope. It's not there. Therefore, tiericide does not apply to the proposed changes on the Exhumers. They already had roles, which is the "new" model CCP is following. They weren't just +1 (if that's what you want to use for your definition of tiericide).
Did you notice the part where they said you don't have to train the Frigate skill past lvl I to fly all seven? Nope. Not there. So congratulations, you've just proven that they're not doing any tiercide on the frigates. Roll

Like I said: what they're doing to the exhumers is the exact same thing as they're doing to the frigates (because, they already have different roles as well). Both are tiercide.

Oh, and the exhumers were pretty much +1 as well. The Hulk could do the job of the other two just fine (or even better in some circumstances).

Petrus Blackshell wrote:
OH, and ib4 tears when bears realize there are no cargohold expander mods for ore bays (and there will most likely be none).
You're way too late on that one…
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#376 - 2012-06-14 20:21:36 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
OH, and ib4 tears when bears realize there are no cargohold expander mods for ore bays (and there will most likely be none).


as someone with both combat and industrial accounts - would they be nice to have? yup and i suggested it
am i going to be upset not getting them? nope, my industrial char's hulk is not cargo expandered

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#377 - 2012-06-14 20:26:41 UTC
Peter Powers wrote:
this looks pretty cool,
and new destroyers are a good idea (love the idea of drone destroyers)

but one thing bothers me
all ships and ship changes lately have been mostly positive for new players,
even when t3 cruisers got introduced, their skill sets where set so they can be trained quite fast.
so when are you going to give us vets a few new toys?

also what happend to t3 in other ship classes?


You act like the vets don't get these new toys, too. Or is your ePeen the measure of your total skillpoint? If you want a game based around leveling up, go play some other mmo, please.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#378 - 2012-06-14 20:29:35 UTC
The changes for mining barges are spot-on, however one thing troubles me - will hulk receive the ore bay of the default cargo bay size (8k m³) or will it be more like with expanded cargohold and rigs (in range of 17k m³)? And what will be the difference in yeld between Mack and hulk? 'Cause atm hulk mines at 1.5x of mack's yeld.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#379 - 2012-06-14 20:35:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
OH, and ib4 tears when bears realize there are no cargohold expander mods for ore bays (and there will most likely be none).
You're way too late on that one…

Tch, that's what I get for not reading through 18 pages of stuff. Oh well.

On another topic, frigate changes look super sweet! I can't wait to use my Navitas.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#380 - 2012-06-14 20:37:10 UTC
i think it's really disheartening that you guys arent touching the heart of the game (BC's and cruisers) until next year. why are you dragging your feet like this? balance the damn drake already, bring T3's in line, buff command ships, give HAC's a freaking role... i mean what are you doing? who gives a **** about t1 frigs?