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New dev blog: Ship balancing summer update

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DazedOne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#221 - 2012-06-14 15:53:34 UTC
Rrama Ratamnim wrote:
Zorok wrote:
Hi,
I'm happy to hear that you are willing to give *some* of the mining barges a bit of a buff against attackers. The ore hold bonus to the retriever/mackinaw is nice but I don't think that 1 jettison can worth of ore + a bit tougher defense is going to get people to switch to using these ships. The best setup for a lone miner is to use a hulk to mine and then use an Orca to pick up the jet cans.
I believe that if you want to make the ore hold really worth while on the mackinaw/retriever, you should look at the minimum of 4 jet cans in space if you're expecting pilots to give up using a Hulk/Orca combo.

In Eve, time is money and vice versa- unless you can make the mackinaw/retriever mine more efficiently w/o Orca or other hauler support (basically make it mine more or equivalent to a Hulk mining and then the time it would take to fly back to station and grab an orca to haul jet cans etc), the Mackinaw/Retriever will be used by only a small percentage of players.

To the point: CCP, make the Mackinaw/Retriever worth my time as a lone miner and I will use this over the Hulk.


a bit of an ehp buff? are you serious?

BATTLE SHIP TANK = 100k EHP

You seriously dont seem to be calculating in the whole loss of 1 hulk = -300m ISK thats a lot of mining every time you loose one, which during certain times mainly in highsec happens quite often.



Thats when you adapt and fly one of the tankier hulls they are coming out with. Its your personal choice to go with more tank and less yield OR less tank and more yield. Make a choice man it isn't difficult.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#222 - 2012-06-14 15:54:27 UTC
So battlecruisers are still remaining as OP as today?

So EHP idiocy is kept the same?

So tech3 vs Command Ships nonses is left intact?

Who the hell decided it's a good idea to commit that much manpower into damn frigates? Come on, man! By next summer, the date you're going to have remote chances of actually addressing bigger stuff (I'm even optimistic here), It will have been a damn year of you trying to fix these pesky frigates! How long will it take to address all the other issues then?

Let me remind you of some:

- cyno mechanics
- rigs
- armour vs. shield in general (with Shield extenders not affecting mobility, while apparently they should)
- abovementioned stuff

QuestionUghQuestion

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#223 - 2012-06-14 15:54:45 UTC
Selissa Shadoe wrote:
I'm concerned about that too. If the Hulk is made any weaker and if the cargo hold is transformed to an 'ore hold' so that you're not able to increase the size with a cargo expander, then there's some real issues there. You'll be left making the 'best mining barge' (currently) in to something amazingly crappy just to make the other ship classes feel better. :/
It's being turned into a group miner — local cargo hold is no longer particularly relevant, and you can concentrate on beefing up that tank instead.

What they're doing is making each barge being “the best”, only at different things.

Swearte Widfarend wrote:
It's pretty common to fit Hulks (and Covetors) with Cargo Expansion Rigs and even sometimes the Expander II mods. I hope you realize this and will also either transfer the bonuses for these mods/rigs to the Ore Hold, or create a separate Mod and Rig to expand the Ore Hold (with similar penalties to the cargo rigs/mods).
Same goes here: doing that, and trying to expand the cargo hold of the new Hulk to begin with, would be to go completely counter to its new purpose and intended use. You don't need a big ore hold — the Orca in your gang has that covered.

Most likely, when these changes go through, they're simply going to force-strip all barges and exhumers since none of the fittings will make sense any more (and some of them might even no longer be able to fit the things they currently carry). They've done that before when they've completely revamped ship bonuses and layouts, so it will probably be the preferred solution here as well.
Jeremy Hayden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2012-06-14 15:56:55 UTC
It seems a bit odd to me that some mining barges would get a special ore bay and others won't. In my opinion, it would make more sense to standardize and give every ORE ship a dedicated ORE hold.

ORE frigate - Good mining frigate for new players. Small ORE hold, small cargohold on par with current "mining" frigates. Newer players could also experiment solo mining in low sec.

Procurer - Preferred for low sec mining with small fleet support. Medium ORE bay, small cargohold. +2 warp strength. High EHP. Mining yield is still less than retriever and higher ships.

Skiff - Preferred for low sec mining with small fleet support. Medium ORE bay. small-medium cargohold depending on fittings. +3 warp strength. Highest EHP of all barges\exhumers. Mining yield is still less than retriever and higher ships.

Retriever - Large ORE bay (jetcan size), small-medium cargo hold depending on fittings. Increased EHP, but not even near the procurer/skiff. It's a flexible ship, its yield is decent, but still not as good as the more dedicated t2 ships like the mack, hulk, or covetor. It can hold the most ore, though.

Mackinaw - Medium ORE bay. small - medium cargohold depending on yield or defense fittings tradeoff. Increased EHP from current, but still average EHP. Would still receive ice bonus to keep it as the best yield ship for ice mining.

Covetor - Medium ORE bay, small cargohold. Little EHP and limited fittings, still can't really fit a tank at all, Think of it as a stripped down hulk distilled to its basic purpose: mining yield.

Hulk - Medium ORE bay, and small-medium cargohold depending on yield\defense fittings tradeoff. Average EHP. Still the preferred max-yield ore mining vessel.

And while we're at it:

Orca

- X-large ORE bay (increased from current). 80,000m3

- Same size cargohold as current.
- Same size corp hanger as current.
- Same size ship maint hanger as current.



Johan March
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2012-06-14 15:59:01 UTC

I really like the frigate rebalancing and will really enjoy flying some of these new ships. A few recommendations: Atron, etc. - some sort of MWD bonus to make it a viable T1 tackler. Doesn't have to be as good as an inty, but something. That would be a fun boat to fly.

The destroyer changes sound good too, but the old Navy man in me says "destroyer not [strike]shore[/strike] planet bombardment ship". Now special forces team insertion. That's what destroyers do.

I'm no miner, but the changes to those ships seem reasonable too. The new mining frigate looks cool.
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus
The Initiative.
#226 - 2012-06-14 15:59:40 UTC
Overall these changes, IMO reflect the renewed dedication CCP has taken with regards to FiS and i am liking the rebalancing hat they are doing. +1

I would be even more pleased if they would respec the mining skills and refund the mining /industry skillpoints that players have accumulated ;)

Hmmm
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#227 - 2012-06-14 16:00:18 UTC
Mining Frigate, wait...... EvE = Homeworld 3 Bear

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#228 - 2012-06-14 16:00:34 UTC
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
I know that ship skills provide bonuses based on the level of the skill, but I really think you should re-evaluate "all ships unlocked at level 1." Granted, with skills at such a low multiplier, the difference between 1 and 3 is only a couple hours, but I think you should consider unlocking hulls with skill level, with a cap that all hulls are unlocked by LV 4 for a Tech 1 ship. Logically, the hulls are different, and behave differently, so having a higher skill would also imply that the hull has a higher benefit in some way (which may even be true after the changes).


No! You're basically going back into tiers, where you unlock "better" ships.

The new thinking where all ships in a class have slightly different abilities and roles is much better. Rather than nearly-always flying the "best" ship, the trade-off allows for more variety in the game. With this world-view, unlocking all the ships at the same time makes more sense.
Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#229 - 2012-06-14 16:01:09 UTC
Peta Michalek wrote:


Well I am new here so I guess I'm not used to EVE work cycles, but you know - entire games were made in less time.


And died in less time too.

EVE defines, for better or worse, the "long game" in gaming.

Quote:
Plus there's the "why would I play/fly this now if it's going to be buffed/nerfed/changed anyway" factor.


Because it's fun right now?

If you're not flying/playing now for fun now, you're doing it wrong.

Every MMO changes over time. EVE is no different.
Grady Eltoren
Hogyoku
#230 - 2012-06-14 16:01:41 UTC
Archinquisitor wrote:
Before making ADDITIONAL destroyers, consider upgrading one racial frigate each to destroyer, as we have so many frigates already, some without a proper role.



THIS - take one frig from each race and make it a destroyer. Too many frigates. That will cut down on your work load and make it easier for players. Unless of course this totally fubar's your balance plans already laid... : (


Anyways - SO MUCH LOVE in this devblog! Great comments so far. Hoping people post ideas in the right thread though OR dev's are following this one close taking notes.


ORE changes - +1000 so unexpected and pleasant. THANK GOD for the ORE frigate too. So cool! I LIKED the changes to the mining ships but....


WE still NEED A dedicated ICE miner (Mackinaw) this was not mentioned and not sure how this will work out? DEV's can you answer??

also

What about a dedicated GAS miner???
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2012-06-14 16:03:17 UTC
Johan March wrote:
The destroyer changes sound good too, but the old Navy man in me says "destroyer not [strike]shore[/strike] planet bombardment ship". Now special forces team insertion. That's what destroyers do.

That's what happened in the trailer at FanFest, come to think of it. A Coercer dropped a team of DUST mercs onto a planet.
WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
#232 - 2012-06-14 16:04:53 UTC
darmwand
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#233 - 2012-06-14 16:06:36 UTC
Grady Eltoren wrote:
Too many frigates.


Huh, how can there be too many of something? I like having more combat frigates around, that will make fights much less predictable.

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
GRIEV3R
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#234 - 2012-06-14 16:09:52 UTC
1) These sweeping changes are very exciting. I can't wait to see them ingame!
2) The new mining frig looks awesome
3) next year's Hulkageddon will definitely be more interesting
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#235 - 2012-06-14 16:10:17 UTC
darmwand wrote:
Grady Eltoren wrote:
Too many frigates.


Huh, how can there be too many of something? I like having more combat frigates around, that will make fights much less predictable.

Yeah. I mean, when I see a Drake, I surely expect something really really unpredictable.

The point is: given current mods/rigs balance, the number of ships is pretty much irrelevant - there are always like 1 or 3 (at most) usable setups.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2012-06-14 16:13:12 UTC
Selissa Shadoe wrote:
If the Hulk is made any weaker and if the cargo hold is transformed to an 'ore hold' so that you're not able to increase the size with a cargo expander, then there's some real issues there. You'll be left making the 'best mining barge' (currently) in to something amazingly crappy just to make the other ship classes feel better. :/


There shouldn't be a flat out 'best' ship.
Instead, there should be range of ships, each of which is best suited to a particular role or task.
Which is what I think the devblog is suggesting.
Lyta Jhonson
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#237 - 2012-06-14 16:17:11 UTC
Devblog wrote:
... we want to introduce new tech 1 destroyers to fill roles that are not yet covered ...

Then what about new ship design contest like one we got tier 3 battlecruiser models from?
Maul555
Xen Investments
#238 - 2012-06-14 16:18:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Maul555
Selissa Shadoe wrote:
Aemonchichi wrote:
PLEASE CCP :

answer me this - what do you mean by -

Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.

please explain WHAT protection you mean when you talk of this ? remote rep ? a low ehp ship? ever heard of alpha ? pretty please dear developer that is reading this explain what this protection could be in your eyes ? we need to understand what u think if you want us to give you feedback



I'm concerned about that too. If the Hulk is made any weaker and if the cargo hold is transformed to an 'ore hold' so that you're not able to increase the size with a cargo expander, then there's some real issues there. You'll be left making the 'best mining barge' (currently) in to something amazingly crappy just to make the other ship classes feel better. :/



wow, I didn't even think of that. your right. If ore automatically goes into an ore hold that is smaller than my expanded cargo hold, this will majorly mess up a lot of mining... Having to evacuate ore much more often or face your mining lasers shutting down on you when it fills up. CCP, I beg thee, just increase the size of the cargo hold and completely forget about having a dedicated ore hold. I ether that, or make the ore hold much bigger than the cargo hold. you could also give us an option to have ore dump to the cargo hold first. There are options, please use them to avoid this headache I see coming down the pipe.
ivar R'dhak
Deus est Mechanicus
#239 - 2012-06-14 16:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ivar R'dhak
CCP Soundwave wrote:
with changes going out somewhere around august and december.

I´d really like to know if it´s you that´s so keen on pushing this "stew" ship re-balancing or is it the general consensus at CCP´s agile "happenings"?

With "STEW" re-balancing I mean making all races basically the same. It shows again with the frigate re-balancing (amarr droneboats?!? What?, GALENTE missile boats ! Shocked ) and blatantly with the new "Hulks" you´re going to introduce.

Here´s my take on the super-duper miner revamp.

Quote:
As a result we thus get:

New ORE frig: we want this ship to be obsolete after a week of gametime.
To the designer who came up with the cool design? Sux to be him.

Procurer/Skiff: primarily made to be ignored. As mining yield is the only thing that counts on a möthaeffin´ mining ship and EHP is worth cräp when the gankers just upgrade from two destroyers to two Tornados.

Retriever/Mackinaw: made for cheap bots and/or watching Game of Thrones/PÖrn while "you" mine.

Covetor/hulk: is identical to the current broken state. Just that now you can have a fit that stands up to better belt rats. yay



First of all CCP, can mining is an EMERGENT GAMEPLAY! Effin´get it already and don´t try to kill it every time you have a new brainwave by sprint committee.

Then I´d actually like to congratulate you on the ore-bay. It´s a good idea and should´ve been implemented a week after you learned how to do it to Rorquals. I forgot, how many years ago was that again?



Here´s my take on a proper Exhumers revamp:

That "super-hardy" EHP you´re planing for the SKIFF? Double it then give it to ALL THE THINGS.

Those quaint and "oh so" obsoleteRoll roles the different Exhumers have, is actually the MAIN thing they should keep.
In fact make it even more pronounced.

Apart from the Skiff, it´s main trick of dodging space-rock farts is a bit weak. Give it a proper ore hold and warp core stabs to finally become the ninja miner that some people supposedly are dreaming of.


As for your new and already obsolete(especially with skill revamps) mining frig, PLEASE don´t give us another useless skill to train for. Just make the damn thing use the Barge skill on lvl1, set the other barges at 2, 3 & 4 and for all I care give them all those nifty ideas you have cooked up.

BTW how about a dedicated gas cloud miner?
I heard you´re making a new mining ship that could use a Tech2 variant?


Tl;dr Proper T2 Mining ships? Where?
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#240 - 2012-06-14 16:20:46 UTC
Changes to mining ships sound very good. CCP, You should still consider the idea linked in my signatureBlink

And you should change the basic gameplay of mining to make it worthwile for humans.

.