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(Proposal) Cloaky reds in system & Macro miners in Eve, how to make life harder for them.

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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#121 - 2012-06-13 15:31:00 UTC
An AFK tag must be one of the dumbest ideas I've seen suggested, congratulations. Local already provides ridiculously valuable information to low/null players at absolutely no cost (something I personally think should change). Wanting it to provide even MORE information is just ludicrous - especially something like the activity level of another player. Sorry, you shouldn't be able to know that unless they do something which alerts you or unless you're actively doing something to try and detect their activities like scanning.
Veilannna Vincent
Generic Alt Corporation 421
#122 - 2012-06-13 16:26:31 UTC
AFK Tags in local means you could get the bot to recognize the AFK tag as a non-risk factor.

If you do botting, this would be a great idea to increase the effeciency of your bots.

Removing local, or at least delaying it would be more usefull in terms of reaching the intended design goal (null-sec = danger).

Living in a wormhole makes you paranoid. You could propably learn alot from this but it doesn't stop people from doing any activity. Because there is a feature that helps in risk asessment: D-scan.
Untouchable Heart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-06-13 17:16:04 UTC
Delayed local is the most dumbest idea what i'd seen.
AFK tag is fine.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2012-06-14 03:53:29 UTC
Quote:
You cant get intel if you get AFK tag when "you just sit and collect intel" ?
You just raving here.

I can't even decipher what you are trying to say here.

You tag someone as AFK, then what? Involve a GM? (no, that's just a stupid waste of their time), cloaker presses a button and the tag goes away? (why would a cloaker want to do that?, better let you think they are AFK, then hotdrop you when you are AFK mining yourself.)

The point, is that cloaking and doing nothing but watching local, station undocks, POS operations is what cloakers do. Quit trying to make it a chore for them. They don't earn isk, as mentioned, so if that's how they want to spend their online time, god bless them. You should send your own cloakers to watch for hotdrops incoming. Man up and do so.
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2012-06-14 04:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Quote:
You cant get intel if you get AFK tag when "you just sit and collect intel" ?
You just raving here.

I can't even decipher what you are trying to say here.

You tag someone as AFK, then what? Involve a GM? (no, that's just a stupid waste of their time), cloaker presses a button and the tag goes away? (why would a cloaker want to do that?, better let you think they are AFK, then hotdrop you when you are AFK mining yourself.)

The point, is that cloaking and doing nothing but watching local, station undocks, POS operations is what cloakers do. Quit trying to make it a chore for them. They don't earn isk, as mentioned, so if that's how they want to spend their online time, god bless them. You should send your own cloakers to watch for hotdrops incoming. Man up and do so.


Just read again and stop raving.

You cant get intel if you get AFK tag when "you just sit and collect intel" ?
You just raving here.


The true it is, what she wrote earlier.

"Just a question. The AFK tag is dangerous for any player ? No
The AFK tag changing the game mechanics ? No
Everyone knows why would be disturb the AFK tag some cloaky fags, who lying in this topic "I'm AFK at enemy systems and i cant kill anyone when i'm AFK", because they would be lost the chances to terrorizing active players in AFK."

If you collect intel and use dir scanner, you using scanner button, you wont get AFK tag.
If you moving to hotdrop position, you wont get AFK tag,
You just get AFK tag when you dont move at least 30 minutes.

But you can collect and share information from visual contact with AFK tag too, that is dont disturb you.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2012-06-14 08:10:03 UTC
Dawn Flare wrote:
Joshvader star wrote:
Dawn Flare wrote:
Caruleum Ursa wrote:
Well said, Bluebear8 !

Dawn is an effing TROLL, and probably never wore her industrial diapers.

Probably someone took a shortcut when coding the cloak module, and now we're paying the price! Smooth move, ex lax.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dawn_Flare

Do your homework, this is a dedicated indy toon.

Cloaks are NOT something that should shut you down if you have even half a brain. Grow a pair and learn how to handle psyops.


While I agree with your post, that cloakies should not shut an industria op down. The truth is they do. That is why cloakies do what they do. Its a game play tactic of finding an alliances industrial systems and placing a cloaky in it to disrupt the industrial players. You can't argue that point.

Keep in mind the indi ops we are refering to, are not the full 20 man fleets with pvp cover. Its the smaller miners taking advantage of some down time between fleet opps.

But that's just me.

They do, in fact, shut down small, unprepared ops.

But only if the miners in question let their fear overwhelm their common sense.

My corp maintains unlisted belt bookmarks across several good mining system in out of the way corners of our space, just so that those very small 2-3 man ops have options if the pvpers can't/won't help for whatever reason. Its a PVPers job to maintain those(pvpers tend to have better probing skills).

You have to be organized, and support each other. Letting a cloaky shut you down is YOUR failure tho, not a failure of the mechanic.

Edit: Oh, and I maintain my pvp main in fairly close proximity to said miners so I can rapid response to help them in a pinch, with carrier hotdrops or recon cruiser support(usually the latter, carrier hotdrops are pretty much suicide) so I have a fair grasp of BOTH sides of the coin.

exactly, it seems as though people think a stealth bomber will insta-wtfpwn any ship, it can't, in fact, a single cloaky in system even NOT AFK is almost no threat to ANY GROUP of mroe then 2 people. I live in wormholes, not only do we deal with cloakers on a DAILY basis, but we deal with them WITHOUT local, and you know what? we bait and KILL them, if they don't run scared out of our system ebcause we started tracking them down.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2012-06-14 08:14:06 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Hun Jakuza wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
If someone is worried about an AFK cloaker, they should move back to HS.

AFK cloakers cannot harm anyone. They cannot do anything except maybe fly in a direction really slowly.

If you are in a system and hiding from someone who may or may not be AFK, you are the only one responsible for your own cowardice.


Also, the OP mentions macros.
An AFK timer will have zero effect on macro bots. Bots can easily simulate realistic mouse and keystrokes. Otherwise they would be so easy to fins and ban.


Another cloaker expert alt with 1 kill and 18 losses.
Where you flying ? Let's check what will be happening when i go there with a cloaker alt. Checking you cowardice when you cant go to make isk.
Just when i was in Khanid low sec (three lvl4 agents was there). In the first day, the local was 38. I just got some kills and two weeks later the local decreased to 12.
Four weeks later the local decreased to 3. Most of time i was there in AFK. Sometimes i just dropped out some cheap scanner probes, but i didn't scan and mission runners docked up instantly. Probes in space :P
This is the real AFK terror. Enemy players dont know the status of AFK player, they dont know ambush when starting. Not all pilots playing in same time. Sometimes easy to catch one or two peoples there, who do a mistake. Sometimes they want to make a trap or something to kill cloakers, but against smart pilots who has intel or using a spies, that's useless thing and experienced AFK cloaked player uncatchable.
But the AFK terror is working, i used this tactic many times with successful. Everytime where i was in AFK cloak, activities on local drastically decreased after few days.
So, dont tell me, AFK cloakers does not have effect on active players.

Was in J132 most last month (April). You could come visit. I don't care if you come and cloak in "my" system.
Of course... I wouldn't know you were there, nor would I care.

I also spend some time in low sec, usually in Domain since my home hangers are there. Though most of my time recently is in Amarr, listening to local and sometimes seeing if anyone will shoot at me when I loot their wreck. Been busy with school so haven't had the time to go raid WHs.

And the only kill I have is a corpie. I can't remember why though... but anyway, I don't kill people much. However, I also don't hide like a child from someone who may or may not be at the computer, or even at their house. I just don't fly what I can't afford/am not willing to lose.

Oh and this is my main, though not my first character. Didn't like the others...

you forgot to call him on mentioning he dropped probes.

cause you know, if he dropped probes, NO ONE will think he is AFK, since probes dont have a very long lifespan.
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2012-06-14 08:37:59 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
you forgot to call him on mentioning he dropped probes.

cause you know, if he dropped probes, NO ONE will think he is AFK, since probes dont have a very long lifespan.


You are smart and you got the point.
AFK players can terrorize active players, they dont know who active or inactive.
I dropped the probes and i went to AFK. Sometimes i scanned them, sometimes i didn't.

Easy and riskfree to cloak in enemy system.
This is the real problem. This is a bad game mechanics.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#129 - 2012-06-14 08:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LoneLynx
Ribikoka wrote:
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Quote:
You cant get intel if you get AFK tag when "you just sit and collect intel" ?
You just raving here.

I can't even decipher what you are trying to say here.

You tag someone as AFK, then what? Involve a GM? (no, that's just a stupid waste of their time), cloaker presses a button and the tag goes away? (why would a cloaker want to do that?, better let you think they are AFK, then hotdrop you when you are AFK mining yourself.)

The point, is that cloaking and doing nothing but watching local, station undocks, POS operations is what cloakers do. Quit trying to make it a chore for them. They don't earn isk, as mentioned, so if that's how they want to spend their online time, god bless them. You should send your own cloakers to watch for hotdrops incoming. Man up and do so.


Just read again and stop raving.

You cant get intel if you get AFK tag when "you just sit and collect intel" ?
You just raving here.


The true it is, what she wrote earlier.

"Just a question. The AFK tag is dangerous for any player ? No
The AFK tag changing the game mechanics ? No
Everyone knows why would be disturb the AFK tag some cloaky ****, who lying in this topic "I'm AFK at enemy systems and i cant kill anyone when i'm AFK", because they would be lost the chances to terrorizing active players in AFK."

If you collect intel and use dir scanner, you using scanner button, you wont get AFK tag.
If you moving to hotdrop position, you wont get AFK tag,
You just get AFK tag when you dont move at least 30 minutes.

But you can collect and share information from visual contact with AFK tag too, that is dont disturb you.


An AFK tag wouldn't prevent me from doing my normal cloaky duties (though it may very very slightly affect it's effectiveness, as enemies would know with absolute certainty that I was actively doing *something* as I don't have a tag), but the question is why should players - and botters - have even more information about what other players are doing without having to do anything themselves to acquire such useful information? They shouldn't.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#130 - 2012-06-14 09:07:39 UTC
Hun Jakuza wrote:
Easy and riskfree to cloak in enemy system.
This is the real problem. This is a bad game mechanics.


Sorry what, how is cloaking in an enemy system a problem at all? How is it "bad game mechanics" to cloak in an enemy system?

Know what IS a problem, and what IS bad game mechanics? Players having in depth information about other players and what they're doing instantly and without having to do anything to get it. That's not how competitive games should work, bro
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2012-06-14 09:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LoneLynx
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Hun Jakuza wrote:
Easy and riskfree to cloak in enemy system.
This is the real problem. This is a bad game mechanics.


Sorry what, how is cloaking in an enemy system a problem at all? How is it "bad game mechanics" to cloak in an enemy system?

Know what IS a problem, and what IS bad game mechanics? Players having in depth information about other players and what they're doing instantly and without having to do anything to get it. That's not how competitive games should work, bro



Personal attacks removed - ISD LoneLynx
He told, the cloaked ship in enemy system is it bad game mechanics ? Man, he told the risk free cloaking it's the bad game mechanic. I understand you are a coward pilot and do you really don't like if you can't fly without risk when you are in cloak in enemy system.
The cloak not need cap or fuel usage, easy to going to work and left behind the cloaked ship at the enemy system in AFK, because no one can scanning them, no one can catch them.
It's time to change this.
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#132 - 2012-06-14 10:45:56 UTC
Offtopic posts removed. Please keep it civil.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2012-06-14 14:14:20 UTC
I've been in this game for over 2 years. Sure it's not long but I'm willing to bet the whiners are all noobs.
Used to argue (google it) that there should be a counter for cloakers. Something, not matter how hard, that defenders could do to rid their system of cloakers. But you know what? I smartened up. You noobs will too.
You just need to realize the way to counter cloakers is to employ your own.

Just cause you rented some null space from an alliance you feel somehow entitled to the space with no risk. Sorry. That's not how it works.

You need to work for it.

Afk tag is the stupidest suggestion for this yet. And I have been around long enough to have read a lot of them.

I personally would love if this was implemented. I would "afk" in your system and hotdrop your sorry souls once you got comfortable knowing that I wasn't pressing any buttons.



Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#134 - 2012-06-14 14:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
The AFK tag wont work.

Either address the problems that people have already brought up with it, or give up on the idea. I hate to have to repeat myself, but this topic is really going nowhere fast. There isn't any debate here. When someone points out a flaw with an idea, it needs to be addressed. You cant just ignore it and continue to shout your un-backed-up support all over the forums.

And AFK tag wont work.

Quote:
Afk tags wont fix anything, because alot of afk cloakies looking to kill people will sit in an anomaly waiting for someone stupid to turn up and then kill them. It will say they are afk but they can still see when you turn up. If your running an anomaly that a cloaky went afk in you will still get no warning before they attack you, because they wont be "not-afk" until they move the mouse to uncloak and attack you. Also you could just jam something in the keyboard and the afk tag wont show up.

Not only that but the AFK tag will cause problems. Suicide ganking in highsec will become easier, for example. "That freighter who is autopiloting is also afk, easy target" or "That Hulk pilot is afk, he'll never see us coming". If you want to support these kind of changes then go ahead, but you wont get my support. It also detracts from info-gathering and the normal tactics associated with PvP. If someone is looking for fights in null, sees a system with one person in space on the map, and jump into that system to see 12 people in local, they will wonder if they can pull off a kill without people turning up to support them. With an AFK tag they will instantly see the other 11 arn't going to come to the person in space's aid.

Also, it just doesn't make sence to have afk tags from a lore perspective. Gates control local chat, the information is given out by them. How exactly do you justify a gate knowing whether the pilot of a ship in local is paying attention? Answer is, you dont, because you can't.

Afk cloakies have never been a problem to me, because we have always had systems in place to deal with them. If you cant deal with them, then you shouldn't be where the AFK cloakies are. Also, I am getting fed up with people replying to my posts without reading what I have written or putting together sensible arguements. Please think before you hate, thank you.


Address the above problems with the idea, or stop shouting about it. There is no middle ground. If the above problems are too great to get around then the AFK tag idea needs to be abandoned.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-06-14 15:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LoneLynx
Personal attcks removed - ISD LoneLynx

Kaelie Onren wrote:


Just cause you rented some null space from an alliance you feel somehow entitled to the space with no risk. Sorry. That's not how it works.

You need to work for it.

Afk tag is the stupidest suggestion for this yet. And I have been around long enough to have read a lot of them.

I personally would love if this was implemented. I would "afk" in your system and hotdrop your sorry souls once you got comfortable knowing that I wasn't pressing any buttons.





http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=916736 Just wow.

Personal attcks removed - ISD LoneLynx

No counter there. Oh wait you cant scanning cloaked ship, you can can catch him but you need decloaking him first, when u are within 2km distance lol. Good luck for decloaking a cloaked ship in a 20 AU big system, which haves millions 400x400km grids but you cant scan the ship position.

When someone in your system you cant catch at gates.
Bubbles ? Where ? When cloakers have bouncing spots ? Or when the pilot use interdiction nullifier subs ?
Oh wait, i how many times i going trough gatecamps and bubbles ? 10 thousand times ?
Wait i never was killed there. Really very-very hard to go trough. LOL

You know nothing from this game. A cloaker expert in cloak is uncatcheable when he left the gate distances and 0.0001 percent chance to catch at gate when he moving through the gates. You can catch when he is decloaked but not in cloak.
Maybe if you have luck and after jump the gate dropped him to aside another ships within 2km distance.

Personal attcks removed - ISD LoneLynx
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#136 - 2012-06-14 16:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Ribikoka wrote:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=916736 Just wow.

Personal attacks removed - ISD LoneLynx



Ribikoka wrote:
No counter there. Oh wait you cant scanning cloaked ship, you can can catch him but you can decloaking him, when u are within 2km distance lol. Good luck for decloaking a cloaked ship in a 20 AU big system, which haves millions 400x400km grids but you cant scan the ship position.


If he is AFK you dont need a counter, because he's not doing anything. If he comes out of AFK and attacks someone, then a support fleet or standing fleet solves that problem. If you think he's not afk (ie, he just entered, left, re-entered system. Or is someone spotted him momentarily on DScan), you can bait him. I have done this, and it works.

Ribikoka wrote:
When someone in your system you cant catch at gates.
Bubbles ? Where ? When cloakers have bouncing spots ? Or when the pilot use interdiction nullifier subs ?
Oh wait, i how many times i going trough gatecamps and bubbles ? 10 thousand times ?
Wait i never was killed there. Really very-very hard to go trough. LOL


Use a drag bubble and strategically places cans. Use interceptors with drones assisting them to burn in their direction when they try and get away on gate. This works, I have done it. I have also been killed in cloakies by people doing it.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
ISD LoneLynx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2012-06-14 18:07:37 UTC
Please refrain from personal attacks.

ISD LoneLynx Lieutenant Support Team and Resources [STAR] Interstellar Services Department
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#138 - 2012-06-14 18:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
The text you removed from my post was less of a person attack then the report sent against the post you edited. I would have gone as far as to say the vast majority of what you removed wasn't a person attack at all.

Not only that but there are far far worse in all of the above posters. If I report those, will you edit all of those as well? (I wont, because that's petty, but you get the point).

Ribikoka wrote:
*Personal attacks without any good counter arguement*.


In the meantime I suppose this thread will continue to carry on as it has already been.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2012-06-14 19:47:56 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
so much cry.



Just read it.

"Everyone knows why would be disturb the AFK tag some cloaky fags, who lying in this topic "I'm AFK at enemy systems and i cant kill anyone when i'm AFK", because they would be lost the chances to terrorizing active players in AFK."

My english is bad. But you should be talk with me other languages. Maybe try to talk with me, my mother language. Oh i forgot you cant do or you can speak any other language ? Parla Italiano tu pazzo ? Vagy beszélsz magyarul tekretén? Habla Espanol posiblemente ?
But i guess language attack is not allowed here, you just want to insult to others.


"Posting with an alt, your not a 9 year old player." LOL Idiotic answer.
Because i have alts, do you think i dont have older character ? Logical.
Yes i'm a 9 year old player and you doesn't create rules here, who allowed to post or who disallowed to post.

I killed so much Malevolent low sec clowns at Khanid when you never heard about Eve yet.
You talk about skills but you cant fit a Drake lol http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11942814
Oh no, you can use the Hobgoblin I drones. :P

"If he is AFK you dont need a counter"
Again you talking idiocracy. Cloaked ship is not equal wih AFK cloakers.

"If he comes out of AFK and attacks someone, then a support fleet..." LOL Man u are LOL. Who come out from cloak that is not cloaked anymore.
But that's why i could kill many ratters before the supports fleet arrived. Was easy job in Irmalin when i killed so much Malevolent horrible players there.
And other thing a cloaker can waiting for any length of time, he just waiting the moments when no support fleet there, when just few players trying to play there. He can wait without risk so long as he want. Do you know what is means riskfree cloaking at enemy system?

"Use a drag bubble" Maybe i cant speak English, but you cant read English too.

I wrote before : "Bubbles ? Where ? When cloakers have bouncing spots ? Or when the pilot use interdiction nullifier subs ?"

Drag bubble lol. :P Maybe you never heard bouncing spot or nullifier subs. But why expected pro mode from you when you cant fit a drake lol.
You need to learn play with Eve without n00b mode. And how can you drop bubble in low sec ? Please teach me sensei.

"I have done it. I have also been killed in cloakies by people doing it." And this is the best joke with 136 kills :PPP

Man i have almost 18k kills with 3 characters but do you know how can decloaking with ceptor a cloaker pilots. :D
Maybe you need to log on at Arshat (hide in high sec) and show me your joke skills.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#140 - 2012-06-14 20:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Ribikoka wrote:

"Everyone knows why would be disturb the AFK tag some cloaky fags, who lying in this topic "I'm AFK at enemy systems and i cant kill anyone when i'm AFK", because they would be lost the chances to terrorizing active players in AFK."


If he's afk, he's not terrorizing other players.

Ribikoka wrote:
"If he is AFK you dont need a counter"
Again you talking idiocracy. Cloaked ship is not equal wih AFK cloakers.


I literally have no idea what your trying to say there.

Ribikoka wrote:
"If he comes out of AFK and attacks someone, then a support fleet..." LOL Man u are LOL. Who come out from cloak that is not cloaked anymore.


Or here.

Ribikoka wrote:
And other thing a cloaker can waiting for any length of time, he just waiting the moments when no support fleet there, when just few players trying to play there. He can wait without risk so long as he want. Do you know what is means riskfree cloaking at enemy system?


Yes, they can stay in system permanently risk free. There is another way of staying permanently in system risk free with almost all the same benefits. Its called docking up. So I don't see what the problem is.

Ribikoka wrote:
Man i have almost 18k kills with 3 characters but do you know how can decloaking with ceptor a cloaker pilots. :D
Maybe you need to log on at Arshat (hide in high sec) and show me your joke skills.


Maybe you should post with your main. Instead of with an alt that has no kill history at all. Or maybe you wont because we will call your bluff?

Edit: Also, Rib. You take the **** out of my KB stats, but I can't even check yours, because you hide behind an alt with no kill history at all. You take the **** out of a drake fit of mine, even though its the fit Kil2 and a lot of the alliance tournament players use. Not that any of that is relevant, but I had to call you up on it. You really are full of yourself if you think you know more about fitting than the alliance tourney contestants and eve's most famous PvPer.

Oh, also, you still haven't addressed any of the reason why the AFK tag wont work.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf