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Warfare & Tactics

 
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New Mechanics and NPC's

First post
Author
Wa'roun
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-06-03 18:18:28 UTC
Mirana Niranne wrote:
Very simple!

Defensive plexing should put half the LP of the site directly into upgrading that system, and MAYBE half to the pilots that turn it back.

There should be more of a penalty for starting a site, and then tucking tail and running at the first sign of trouble.



Like adding time back to the counter or completely resetting it, not simply stopping the timer.
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#22 - 2012-06-04 02:42:56 UTC
I don't know. It only takes a day old afk alt to defensive plex as well. So... I guess in one case an afk alt gets LP and in the other case the afk alt does not.

In this case, "attacking" alts get LP where "defending" alts do not.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#23 - 2012-06-04 03:38:23 UTC
Dopified wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
Actually Caldari do have an issue with afk orbiting frigs at the moment. Some of our most contested systems are due to pirates using week old dramiel characters to afk orbit all size plexes. The simple solution would be the requirement to kill all npcs in the plex before it can be captured. Coding it might sound like a pain but i think it would fix the afk frig speed tanking plexes issue across all militias.


And as far as fixing the outpost respawn bug I think it should be CCPs top priority. It's game breaking whether its intentional or not.


I like the idea but I think it still will not address the imbalace of how easy the NPC's are. I can understand because you dont want to lose the Manticore mission running if the NPC's actually became harder. Second the ability for you to fight in a major plex in a frig is still another advantage that caldari hold over Gallente. Again good idea about killing all the spawns but I dont think this addresses the issue of imbalance.


Actually I haven't used a manticore for missions in like....2 years? (Tried it once or twice did not like) Its far too slow I prefer a tengu. Pull your head out of your ass.
Dopified
Black Eagle5
#24 - 2012-06-04 08:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dopified
Super Chair wrote:
Actually I haven't used a manticore for missions in like....2 years? (Tried it once or twice did not like) Its far too slow I prefer a tengu. Pull your head out of your ass.


My apologies I should have said "caldari militia" instead of "you" when addressing the manticore issue. Secondly this does not change the fact that there is still and advantage to one side. I will also add that I can see how the caldari side would want to retain that advantage. In reference to your last comment I can only see that your nasty behavior has come from one incident. I do remember wanting to fight 3v3 and you had the advantage in the fight. I do remember that you would not engage when you thought we had 2 falcons with us but did not. I did not even see anyone else with us. Yes i laughed because that was hilarious being accused of having 2 falcons when we did not and i did not see how you could of come to that conclusion. But in all fairness you would have laughed at us too if we said the same. The comment needs to be turned around I honestly have no idea why you are so bitter with me. Comments like this are really rediculus when i had no intention of getting personal.

I am trying to have ccp look at this and realize it is a problem. The alts that just rake in the LP are rediculus. Making npc's harder for minmatar and Caldari to deal with is the only solution that will take care of alot of those problems of players just creating extra toons to speed tank for lp. But it can also be argued by some that there is no problem with speed tanking for lp and that is what FW should become. The march of the alt armies.
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#25 - 2012-06-04 08:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Joanna Ramirez
Dopified wrote:
I am trying to have ccp look at this and realize it is a problem. The alts that just rake in the LP are rediculus. Making npc's harder for minmatar and Caldari to deal with is the only solution that will take care of alot of those problems of players just creating extra toons to speed tank for lp. But it can also be argued by some that there is no problem with speed tanking for lp and that is what FW should become. The march of the alt armies.


Alts rule the day everywhere but you should be happy. With alt armies, caldari LP value plummets (like minmatar already does) and thus pvp'ers have less isk to spend on war efforts, meaning gallente benefit from it.

Years have gone by, CCP has thrown you guys every possible bone you have asked with npc nerfs, Dominion Debacle, increased plex spawns after initial caldari conquest and numerous other things. And YET YOU STILL B.TCH AND MOAN ABOUT THINGS BEING UNFAIR!*

When will you be happy? When CCP removes Amarr/Caldari militias and declares you the winner with some random Scope newsreport?

*Had to resort to bolded and underline just to bring home the points of last three years of FW
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-06-04 08:48:41 UTC
Because it is unfair. When one side can run the largest plexes with no skill alts in cheap ships and the other side can only do the same in skilled alts with not so cheap ships, that right there is a fundamental disadvantage.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#27 - 2012-06-04 10:00:43 UTC
Hey,

We currently are looking at NPCs in the FW complexes. The plan is to remove all NPCs doing EW in all factions to equalize difficulty a bit. We won't touch the missile spam for now however as most of the NPCs are used in missions as well, but this should help a bit until we get into a proper iteration of this for this winter. This also won't apply for FW missions, only FW complexes for now.

We also are looking into an issue that prevents FW complexes from despawning properly, which in turn prevents new sites from spawning until the next downtime. Estimated time for such changes is to have them out as soon as possible (sorry, can't give estimate though, still working on them as we speak).


Hope that helps a bit.
Grimfang Wyrmspawn
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-06-04 10:32:36 UTC
But are you going to add missile spam to the races that currently don't?
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#29 - 2012-06-04 11:07:43 UTC
No we aren't going to touch missile NPCs themselves. Ideally missile spam should be less of a problem, not aggravated by adding more of it, and that's an issue that still needs to be looked at, most likely during this winter.

We know it's far from perfect but that's all we can do in the current time frame.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#30 - 2012-06-04 11:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
It is good to know that CCP is using minimal time effort to solve problems that are not even problems.

Real problems are somewhere else.

This whole problem does not even exists if players play EVE on right way.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2012-06-04 11:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Guard
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
...We currently are looking at NPCs in the FW complexes. The plan is to remove all NPCs doing EW in all factions to equalize difficulty a bit. We won't touch the missile spam for now however as most of the NPCs are used in missions as well, but this should help a bit until we get into a proper iteration of this for this winter. This also won't apply for FW missions, only FW complexes for now.



The vast majority of people in FW wants to be rid of the idiocy of solo-frig-capping plexes and now you want to make it so easy that no rat shall ever again be killed except when farmed for tags .. how is that supposed to help anything game/fun wise?

You created an entirely new subset of rats for Incursions presumably to facilitate the use of the special AI and being able to tweak them ad nauseum without having to worry about every other John and Jane Doe rat in the database .. have you considered doing something similar for FW .. considering the increasing pressure to expand on FW to include pirate factions and what not the time/money would be well spent.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We also are looking into an issue that prevents FW complexes from despawning properly, which in turn prevents new sites from spawning until the next downtime. Estimated time for such changes is to have them out as soon as possible (sorry, can't give estimate though, still working on them as we speak).

So once more unto the breach, eh?

You have tried squashing the timer bug version one through umpteen since Empyrean Age went live to no avail. Isn't it time you looked at why/how that timer you crammed into what is essentially exploration encounter sites keeps bugging out instead of going through the motions again hoping for a different outcome

Do yourselves a favour and get rid of them! The timers are as loved by FW monkeys as tower/SBU grinds is by null ditto (read: not a lot, in case you didn't know).

Replace it with making killing spawns a requirement and time the waves to roughly equal the 10, 15 and 20 minute timesinks FW "enjoys" currently. Add to some of the waves depending on number of people present and give the rats some insane shield/armour recharge if engaged from XX km to prevent the obvious 'kite from opposite side' easy mode = you not help keep the tags market healthy, eliminate the solo capping problem, make the LP payout actually require :effort:, make plexing a team effort and get to ignore the question of FW AI for another 4 years.
Note #1: Have an ever so slight upwards scaling of LP to lessen the 'hit' of having to share .. gangs should not be mandatory, but beneficial. Solo'ing still to be possible in appropriately sized/powered ship.
Note #2: Defensive "plexing" would merely require one to run an attacker out after which spawns slowly reset (not getting paid so forcing timesink on defenders is just plain evil/wrong). Spawning is stopped by entering the XX km range thus preventing capture -> FightFightFight!
Note #3: Expand warp-in arrival sphere to full regional/normal gate size to cut down on effectiveness of camping it or instate a size check on warp-to and remove acceleration gates completely .. latter prevents neutral/pirate/enemy interference on gate so may not be viable/wanted.

Snip. Please avoid personal attacks and ranting. -Guard
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#32 - 2012-06-04 11:54:02 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Lot's of bitching

Yeah and let's also institute a rule that allows militia members to only fly that race of ships as well. That will fix all of FWs problems.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac

CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#33 - 2012-06-04 11:58:00 UTC
Ok; where to start?


We know it must be frustrating to be stuck in a set of feature mechanics that yes, seriously suck for years and have the development team ignore you for a long while. Hell, if I was in your situation I would probably be as bitter as you are right now.

However, that is no reason to be plainly offensive or disrespectful in your feedback. Believe it or not, we actually care about Factional Warfare state, which is why we have been willing to iterate on it. We even pleaded, argued long and hard to have this feature looked up again for Inferno and this winter to make sure we would fix it properly before moving on to other things.

Despite what you may think, we actually are listening to feedback, which is why we are taking personal time that should be spent on other projects right now (like ship balancing for example, that affects a far larger section of the player base) to look at NPC balancing and complex bug fixing.

Yes, plexing could be perfected, and it's quite easy to bash developers non-stop and throw a tantrum when you don't get things your way, but in reality things are different. We have a lot of pressure coming from different parties to do other stuff as well, we have various projects we have to follow, team is busy cleaning defects from Inferno, and without to say summer vacations are coming as well. Thus totally revamping FW sites with complex mechanics and AI is just plain not possible for now. And I said "for now" because we really want to keep iterating when we get the manpower back to do so this winter.

So I will be plainly honest, we feel your pain and we have put personal extra hours to alleviate it and try to make you happy, because we care as much as you do, possibly more. We do not expect a grand applause or feast in our honor because, as you said, things are still far from being balanced right now, but we at least expect some respect and proper constructive comments in the feedback you give us.

So we would please ask to keep the discussion civil, it is not because we are CCP employees we have to be treated like some kind of stray dogs. If this is the kind of reward for investing ourselves so much here we may as well work in another feature for the time being.


Thank you.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
WE FORM V0LTA
#34 - 2012-06-04 12:11:23 UTC
It astounds me how the usual suspects in the Caldari militia countinue to say things that everyone, including themselves, knows aren't true.

There has never been a CCP bias towards the Gallente militia. The Caldari militia have, from the very first day of Empyrean Age, always had a large number of advantages over the Gallente that everyone on both sides are aware of, so it seems entirely counterproductive and pathetic for people to pretend that things were somehow different. From day one, Caldari had a significant numerical advantage and have not, for a single second since then, ever had less members than any of the other militia. Timezone distribution of plexes has always favoured the Caldari due to the large number of European members they have. Caldari plexes are significantly more difficult to run than Gallente plexes and this is a known fact.

Even more importantly, the Caldari militia started with Duty. corp, one of the most effective non-nullsec mercenary corporations in the game at the time, who had done a significant amount of homework on the test server. The early successes of Caldari plexing was based entirely upon tactics developed by Duty. that were passed on to people such as 22BDU. There has, of course, been a concerted revisionist effort by certain newer Caldari organisations to write Duty. and its members out of FW history, because Toushi Kimura was a smart man and pulled Duty. out of STPRO when he saw what a self-aggrandising clusterfuck it had turned into.

The funny thing about the usual Caldari militia voices is that they were curiously silent on the subject of FW iteration and balance when they were winning the territory war. Any suggestion of making plexes timezone-neutral to fix the downtime shuffle were viciously opposed. Caldari militia members cried crocodile tears about such things as the timer bug and diagonal standings but were perfectly happy to use them when it was beneficial to their cause. In fact, it may be remembered that the Caldari militia captured over half of Minmatar space by using the diagonal standings glitch to avoid plex aggro, allowing the beleagured Amarr militia to assault the control bunkers. Of course, this tactic eventually backfired hilariously when the outraged Minmatar militia snatched back all their territory and then proceeded to engage in the brutal, pitiless circle-stomp on 24IC's crying face that still continues to this day.

What astounds me is that the Caldari are still winning, and yet they're also still complaining that there's an unfair imbalance towards the Gallente. Presumably the only balance they're actually interested in is one that's tipped in their favour.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Salicaz
Verrimus Caelum
#35 - 2012-06-04 12:25:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ok; where to start?


We know it must be frustrating to be stuck in a set of feature mechanics that yes, seriously suck for years and have the development team ignore you for a long while. Hell, if I was in your situation I would probably be as bitter as you are right now.

However, that is no reason to be plainly offensive or disrespectful in your feedback. Believe it or not, we actually care about Factional Warfare state, which is why we have been willing to iterate on it. We even pleaded, argued long and hard to have this feature looked up again for Inferno and this winter to make sure we would fix it properly before moving on to other things.

Despite what you may think, we actually are listening to feedback, which is why we are taking personal time that should be spent on other projects right now (like ship balancing for example, that affects a far larger section of the player base) to look at NPC balancing and complex bug fixing.

Yes, plexing could be perfected, and it's quite easy to bash developers non-stop and throw a tantrum when you don't get things your way, but in reality things are different. We have a lot of pressure coming from different parties to do other stuff as well, we have various projects we have to follow, team is busy cleaning defects from Inferno, and without to say summer vacations are coming as well. Thus totally revamping FW sites with complex mechanics and AI is just plain not possible for now. And I said "for now" because we really want to keep iterating when we get the manpower back to do so this winter.

So I will be plainly honest, we feel your pain and we have put personal extra hours to alleviate it and try to make you happy, because we care as much as you do, possibly more. We do not expect a grand applause or feast in our honor because, as you said, things are still far from being balanced right now, but we at least expect some respect and proper constructive comments in the feedback you give us.

So we would please ask to keep the discussion civil, it is not because we are CCP employees we have to be treated like some kind of stray dogs. If this is the kind of reward for investing ourselves so much here we may as well work in another feature for the time being.


Thank you.



Any right minded person appreciates this kind of effort. <3

However, rat imbalance should have been adressed before over-the-top penalties to please the null lite crowd (station lock out).
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#36 - 2012-06-04 12:28:33 UTC
The only type of plex that I have not run is the Amarr line. Cal/Gal and Minny plex can all be done in frigs solo. All of them. Just because you are incapable of looking into types of damage to be done (gun/missile) and make an effort to defeat the racial EWAR doesn't mean it is impossible. Gal rats in a major plex will destroy any frig you catch in a few volleys, if you don't kill them first. That is the point of FW. For you to catch them in the plex and kill them. Not for you to sit in station complaining on the forums that the rats aren't doing your job for you.

Or is that what you want? For the EWAR to be so bad that you need a fleet of cap ships to capture a major compound?

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac

gelender
ISK mechanics
#37 - 2012-06-04 13:40:22 UTC
hi, this is my trading alt, i have other alts (2 per faction) for running FW missions for ALL 4 factions,
about the prices you will see here: i trade with FW ships and some modules, cos its the most profitable (in terms of volume of isk that turns around) item from LP store, all the hulls/chips bought on jita, all FW ships/moduls/items sold on jita.


the prices right now:
typhoon fi 270 mil
navy geddon 300 mil
navy domi 500 mil
navy scorp 350 mil

my problem is this:

FW missions are profitable for only 1 faction right now (look at the prices up) , and its all cos of this LP store prices. the situation in gall/cal war sucks for both sides as far as LP store is in question cos 1 domi or scorp cost 600.000 LP, both sides DO NOT find upgrading systems profitable cos ATM its just waste of LP, so both sides are on T1, and mabe for a short time one side is on T2 but that does not last long.
the basic ISK/LP income was around 1500-2000 ISK/ 1LP so the prices for domi and scorp should be like around 1 billion ISK - for a single navy faction ship no way.

as far as the market crashing thats not gna happen - fleet typhoon in not going to drop under 200 mil ever. and navy geddon in never ever hitting 1 billion. if you look at the volumes of ships being sold/bought fleet typhoon is on the bottom of the scale.



if you do FW missions you get more LP you get more items for less LP, compared to HI sec mission running, or LVL 5 missions, but there are downsides main being much higher risk and a big downgrade to character standing to oposing faction. now with current FW LP store system, running missions for 3 out of 4 factions is not profitable at all.
so now you have the risk without the profit when doing FW missions, my question is whats the up side to this new system as far as the mission running is in question
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#38 - 2012-06-04 13:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lock out
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Good info


Big up for having the balls to explain what can and can't be done right now and communicating efficiently. If winter is when it can be done, winter will have to suffice, just keep your word and fix it then.

Also, half the ppl raging here aren't even in FW anymore so don't stress about them to much, thye are just professional cry babys.
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#39 - 2012-06-04 14:24:58 UTC
gelender wrote:
hi, this is my trading alt, i have other alts (2 per faction) for running FW missions for ALL 4 factions,
about the prices you will see here: i trade with FW ships and some modules, cos its the most profitable (in terms of volume of isk that turns around) item from LP store, all the hulls/chips bought on jita, all FW ships/moduls/items sold on jita.


the prices right now:
typhoon fi 270 mil
navy geddon 300 mil
navy domi 500 mil
navy scorp 350 mil

my problem is this:

FW missions are profitable for only 1 faction right now (look at the prices up) , and its all cos of this LP store prices. the situation in gall/cal war sucks for both sides as far as LP store is in question cos 1 domi or scorp cost 600.000 LP, both sides DO NOT find upgrading systems profitable cos ATM its just waste of LP, so both sides are on T1, and mabe for a short time one side is on T2 but that does not last long.
the basic ISK/LP income was around 1500-2000 ISK/ 1LP so the prices for domi and scorp should be like around 1 billion ISK - for a single navy faction ship no way.

as far as the market crashing thats not gna happen - fleet typhoon in not going to drop under 200 mil ever. and navy geddon in never ever hitting 1 billion. if you look at the volumes of ships being sold/bought fleet typhoon is on the bottom of the scale.



if you do FW missions you get more LP you get more items for less LP, compared to HI sec mission running, or LVL 5 missions, but there are downsides main being much higher risk and a big downgrade to character standing to oposing faction. now with current FW LP store system, running missions for 3 out of 4 factions is not profitable at all.
so now you have the risk without the profit when doing FW missions, my question is whats the up side to this new system as far as the mission running is in question

I will agree that the LP hit was a tad harsh. I found that it's not as, or even, profitable anymore to sell the things I sold from the LP store and now I just use it as a resupply dock when I need certain things. If that is the way CCP wants to roll though I guess we'll just have to deal.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac

Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#40 - 2012-06-04 14:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynast
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey,

We currently are looking at NPCs in the FW complexes. The plan is to remove all NPCs doing EW in all factions to equalize difficulty a bit. We won't touch the missile spam for now however as most of the NPCs are used in missions as well, but this should help a bit until we get into a proper iteration of this for this winter. This also won't apply for FW missions, only FW complexes for now.

We also are looking into an issue that prevents FW complexes from despawning properly, which in turn prevents new sites from spawning until the next downtime. Estimated time for such changes is to have them out as soon as possible (sorry, can't give estimate though, still working on them as we speak).


Hope that helps a bit.

It does, I'm glad to hear that. It'd be good for everyone involved if plexes were more-or-less equally difficult across factions, and NPC electronic warfare was no longer a dominant defensive advantage (and a royal pain in the ass clearing some racial FW plexes).