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Warfare & Tactics

 
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New Mechanics and NPC's

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Author
Princess Nexxala
Federal Navy Academy
#41 - 2012-06-04 15:11:41 UTC
Cheers, you guys are doing an excellent job. Keep up the good work and don't let the cry babies get to you too much. Just remember lots of folks who love the changes are not posting here. Best expansion EVER!

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ok; where to start?


We know it must be frustrating to be stuck in a set of feature mechanics that yes, seriously suck for years and have the development team ignore you for a long while. Hell, if I was in your situation I would probably be as bitter as you are right now.

nom nom

Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#42 - 2012-06-04 15:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
I think that removing E-War from NPCs is a good first step to equalize the differences between Factions a bit. However, to make it not too easy the following things should be changed too:

  1. NPC AI should be enhanced to sleeper AI.
  2. NPC should use MWD, at least the frigates should hit 2000m/s to catch enemy frigates.
  3. NPC spawns should adapt to what is in the plex. If you come in frigs only than more frigate NPC should spawn too. If you come with BS then less frigate but more BS NPC should appear. So for example if currently one BS NPC is planned to spawn and there is only a frigate pilot inside then instead of the BS a number of 6 Frigates should appear. Maybe you can add some randomness here to make it more interesting.

I pretty sure that this changes would make it impossible to solo-AFK a large plex in a frigate, however if you are on your toes and fighting the NPC you might be able to make it. Which sounds fair to me.
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-06-04 15:37:58 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ok; where to start?


We know it must be frustrating to be stuck in a set of feature mechanics that yes, seriously suck for years and have the development team ignore you for a long while. Hell, if I was in your situation I would probably be as bitter as you are right now.

However, that is no reason to be plainly offensive or disrespectful in your feedback. Believe it or not, we actually care about Factional Warfare state, which is why we have been willing to iterate on it. We even pleaded, argued long and hard to have this feature looked up again for Inferno and this winter to make sure we would fix it properly before moving on to other things.

Despite what you may think, we actually are listening to feedback, which is why we are taking personal time that should be spent on other projects right now (like ship balancing for example, that affects a far larger section of the player base) to look at NPC balancing and complex bug fixing.

Yes, plexing could be perfected, and it's quite easy to bash developers non-stop and throw a tantrum when you don't get things your way, but in reality things are different. We have a lot of pressure coming from different parties to do other stuff as well, we have various projects we have to follow, team is busy cleaning defects from Inferno, and without to say summer vacations are coming as well. Thus totally revamping FW sites with complex mechanics and AI is just plain not possible for now. And I said "for now" because we really want to keep iterating when we get the manpower back to do so this winter.

So I will be plainly honest, we feel your pain and we have put personal extra hours to alleviate it and try to make you happy, because we care as much as you do, possibly more. We do not expect a grand applause or feast in our honor because, as you said, things are still far from being balanced right now, but we at least expect some respect and proper constructive comments in the feedback you give us.

So we would please ask to keep the discussion civil, it is not because we are CCP employees we have to be treated like some kind of stray dogs. If this is the kind of reward for investing ourselves so much here we may as well work in another feature for the time being.


Thank you.


Just because CCP hasn't given you the resources to work on FW as you might have wanted doesn't mean that the product that was put out was any less shoddy. That's where most of the anger has come from: a deeply flawed product. And mainly it's because you represent CCP in this area that it's directed at you. Not because of anything personal, but because you're CCP Ytterbium
gelender
ISK mechanics
#44 - 2012-06-04 15:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: gelender
Schalac wrote:
gelender wrote:
hi, this is my trading alt, i have other alts (2 per faction) for running FW missions for ALL 4 factions,
about the prices you will see here: i trade with FW ships and some modules, cos its the most profitable (in terms of volume of isk that turns around) item from LP store, all the hulls/chips bought on jita, all FW ships/moduls/items sold on jita.


the prices right now:
typhoon fi 270 mil
navy geddon 300 mil
navy domi 500 mil
navy scorp 350 mil

my problem is this:

FW missions are profitable for only 1 faction right now (look at the prices up) , and its all cos of this LP store prices. the situation in gall/cal war sucks for both sides as far as LP store is in question cos 1 domi or scorp cost 600.000 LP, both sides DO NOT find upgrading systems profitable cos ATM its just waste of LP, so both sides are on T1, and mabe for a short time one side is on T2 but that does not last long.
the basic ISK/LP income was around 1500-2000 ISK/ 1LP so the prices for domi and scorp should be like around 1 billion ISK - for a single navy faction ship no way.

as far as the market crashing thats not gna happen - fleet typhoon in not going to drop under 200 mil ever. and navy geddon in never ever hitting 1 billion. if you look at the volumes of ships being sold/bought fleet typhoon is on the bottom of the scale.



if you do FW missions you get more LP you get more items for less LP, compared to HI sec mission running, or LVL 5 missions, but there are downsides main being much higher risk and a big downgrade to character standing to oposing faction. now with current FW LP store system, running missions for 3 out of 4 factions is not profitable at all.
so now you have the risk without the profit when doing FW missions, my question is whats the up side to this new system as far as the mission running is in question

I will agree that the LP hit was a tad harsh. I found that it's not as, or even, profitable anymore to sell the things I sold from the LP store and now I just use it as a resupply dock when I need certain things. If that is the way CCP wants to roll though I guess we'll just have to deal.




restocking is not cost effective at current lp store prices, your better off doing lvl5 or hi sec lvl 4 with no/low risk.

when the dust settles, and amarr/minmatar get to where gall/caldari are now, factions will have T1 benefit, maybe sometimes T2, and prices will go up accordingly, because allot of navy faction ships/modules come from FW - and not lvl 5 mission running.

plex went from 350 to 500, and everyone that finances their operation from plex deals was happy, now materials went up and everything went up a bit, but when cheap navy faction ships and modules come close to pirate faction ships/modules what are you gonna buy a navy mega for 800-900 mil or a vindi for 1000-1100??

navy ships/modules are not gonna be cost effective or popular as much i guess.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#45 - 2012-06-04 15:54:14 UTC
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ok; where to start?


We know it must be frustrating to be stuck in a set of feature mechanics that yes, seriously suck for years and have the development team ignore you for a long while. Hell, if I was in your situation I would probably be as bitter as you are right now.

However, that is no reason to be plainly offensive or disrespectful in your feedback. Believe it or not, we actually care about Factional Warfare state, which is why we have been willing to iterate on it. We even pleaded, argued long and hard to have this feature looked up again for Inferno and this winter to make sure we would fix it properly before moving on to other things.

Despite what you may think, we actually are listening to feedback, which is why we are taking personal time that should be spent on other projects right now (like ship balancing for example, that affects a far larger section of the player base) to look at NPC balancing and complex bug fixing.

Yes, plexing could be perfected, and it's quite easy to bash developers non-stop and throw a tantrum when you don't get things your way, but in reality things are different. We have a lot of pressure coming from different parties to do other stuff as well, we have various projects we have to follow, team is busy cleaning defects from Inferno, and without to say summer vacations are coming as well. Thus totally revamping FW sites with complex mechanics and AI is just plain not possible for now. And I said "for now" because we really want to keep iterating when we get the manpower back to do so this winter.

So I will be plainly honest, we feel your pain and we have put personal extra hours to alleviate it and try to make you happy, because we care as much as you do, possibly more. We do not expect a grand applause or feast in our honor because, as you said, things are still far from being balanced right now, but we at least expect some respect and proper constructive comments in the feedback you give us.

So we would please ask to keep the discussion civil, it is not because we are CCP employees we have to be treated like some kind of stray dogs. If this is the kind of reward for investing ourselves so much here we may as well work in another feature for the time being.


Thank you.


Just because CCP hasn't given you the resources to work on FW as you might have wanted doesn't mean that the product that was put out was any less shoddy. That's where most of the anger has come from: a deeply flawed product. And mainly it's because you represent CCP in this area that it's directed at you. Not because of anything personal, but because you're CCP Ytterbium


Regardless of whether I agree with your assessment of the current state of the product, asking people to remain civil while giving feedback is hardly an unfair request. Doing so is better for all parties involved.
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-06-04 15:54:54 UTC
Removing Ewar is a good step.

But the real problem is that the plexes themselves are far from ideal. Even after taking Ewar into account the rats are still far from equal.

Balance the rats, provide adequate AI, or remove the rats all together.
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-06-04 16:02:14 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ok; where to start?


We know it must be frustrating to be stuck in a set of feature mechanics that yes, seriously suck for years and have the development team ignore you for a long while. Hell, if I was in your situation I would probably be as bitter as you are right now.

However, that is no reason to be plainly offensive or disrespectful in your feedback. Believe it or not, we actually care about Factional Warfare state, which is why we have been willing to iterate on it. We even pleaded, argued long and hard to have this feature looked up again for Inferno and this winter to make sure we would fix it properly before moving on to other things.

Despite what you may think, we actually are listening to feedback, which is why we are taking personal time that should be spent on other projects right now (like ship balancing for example, that affects a far larger section of the player base) to look at NPC balancing and complex bug fixing.

Yes, plexing could be perfected, and it's quite easy to bash developers non-stop and throw a tantrum when you don't get things your way, but in reality things are different. We have a lot of pressure coming from different parties to do other stuff as well, we have various projects we have to follow, team is busy cleaning defects from Inferno, and without to say summer vacations are coming as well. Thus totally revamping FW sites with complex mechanics and AI is just plain not possible for now. And I said "for now" because we really want to keep iterating when we get the manpower back to do so this winter.

So I will be plainly honest, we feel your pain and we have put personal extra hours to alleviate it and try to make you happy, because we care as much as you do, possibly more. We do not expect a grand applause or feast in our honor because, as you said, things are still far from being balanced right now, but we at least expect some respect and proper constructive comments in the feedback you give us.

So we would please ask to keep the discussion civil, it is not because we are CCP employees we have to be treated like some kind of stray dogs. If this is the kind of reward for investing ourselves so much here we may as well work in another feature for the time being.


Thank you.


Just because CCP hasn't given you the resources to work on FW as you might have wanted doesn't mean that the product that was put out was any less shoddy. That's where most of the anger has come from: a deeply flawed product. And mainly it's because you represent CCP in this area that it's directed at you. Not because of anything personal, but because you're CCP Ytterbium


Regardless of whether I agree with your assessment of the current state of the product, asking people to remain civil while giving feedback is hardly an unfair request. Doing so is better for all parties involved.


I'm not saying that people don't have to be civil, just that there seems to be a misunderstanding as to the nature of their anger.
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#48 - 2012-06-04 16:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey,

We currently are looking at NPCs in the FW complexes. The plan is to remove all NPCs doing EW in all factions to equalize difficulty a bit. We won't touch the missile spam for now however as most of the NPCs are used in missions as well, but this should help a bit until we get into a proper iteration of this for this winter. This also won't apply for FW missions, only FW complexes for now.

We also are looking into an issue that prevents FW complexes from despawning properly, which in turn prevents new sites from spawning until the next downtime. Estimated time for such changes is to have them out as soon as possible (sorry, can't give estimate though, still working on them as we speak).


Hope that helps a bit.
Thanks for the update.

It's the lack of missile spam that makes the afk alts work Caldari/Minmatar work for afk alt plexing. "Alt" means very low skill speed tankers. It appears the new incursus with its insane, err, "finely balanced", repping bonus is the cheapest option for Gallente to afk plex, and these ships only cost 5 million each. I don't know if "afk repping incursus" will work in Minmatar space for Amarr.

Edit: For "minimum cost" I mean closing larger plexes and not just minor plexes. Minor plexes can be capped with any crap fit T1 frigate with a repper - no matter which side you are on.

The E-war is a pvp issue, and IMO not a big deal other than it needs to be balanced between the races - which you guys should test on your own to get a good perspective on them.

This is how I see the issue: Where/when there is lots of activity, these issues don't really matter since players will rule the day.

The army of alts "battling" each other matters only in areas of no activity - backwater systems or systems where one side has no TZ presence. No players likes using his main to chase down "afk alts" that simply warp away and go to the next system, or quickly reship (if you catch them) and continue on. Boring stuff.

So right now, afk defensive plexing alts endlessly battle afk offensive alts in Gallente owned backwater systems. Since Caldari are running plexes at such a high rate, we (Gallente FW players) have to "online" more afk plexing alts to clean up the backwater systems. Not great game play, IMO.

However, thanks for looking at the issues. You've hit homeruns on the last two big expansions - let's go for three!
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#49 - 2012-06-04 16:22:46 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
It astounds me how the usual suspects in the Caldari militia countinue to say things that everyone, including themselves, knows aren't true.
No offense, but you and many posters who pollute these threads haven't participated in the FW Occupancy War in a very long time. I suspect you know very little about these issues. Players on both sides who actually participate may throw temper tantrums, but if you filter through their rage you'll see they have made some excellent points on the state of FW mechanics.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#50 - 2012-06-04 16:31:42 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey,

We currently are looking at NPCs in the FW complexes. The plan is to remove all NPCs doing EW in all factions to equalize difficulty a bit. We won't touch the missile spam for now however as most of the NPCs are used in missions as well, but this should help a bit until we get into a proper iteration of this for this winter. This also won't apply for FW missions, only FW complexes for now.


Thanks for everything!

Removing EW helps PVP out quite a bit. However, the missile spam vs non-missile spam still allows the side not facing missiles to pretty much afk run plexes with very very low skill alts, EW was never an issue there because those characters are not intended to engage in pvp.

But every little bit helps!
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-06-04 16:33:23 UTC
chatgris wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey,

We currently are looking at NPCs in the FW complexes. The plan is to remove all NPCs doing EW in all factions to equalize difficulty a bit. We won't touch the missile spam for now however as most of the NPCs are used in missions as well, but this should help a bit until we get into a proper iteration of this for this winter. This also won't apply for FW missions, only FW complexes for now.


Thanks for everything!

Removing EW helps PVP out quite a bit. However, the missile spam vs non-missile spam still allows the side not facing missiles to pretty much afk run plexes with very very low skill alts, EW was never an issue there because those characters are not intended to engage in pvp.

But every little bit helps!



Agreed.
Dopified
Black Eagle5
#52 - 2012-06-04 16:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dopified
I wrote this forum post in response to a problem that has come up due to the new expansion. My only position with this post was not to bash but to get this problem known to CCP. NPC's have been imbalanced for a long time but have become a serious problem not just for the LP market. I see the problem that gallente will not hold thier systems thus we will be very limited in our ability to base our ships and fight good fleet fights. Now in saying that we are plexing hard and trying to fight this but there is only so much we can do against alt plexers period.

For CCP again i will say I love the expansion and what you guys have done. I don't think that this issue was seen as a big problem when designing the expansion. But unfortunitly it has become one IMO. Again my intentions where to inform not bash and if any of my comments came across as such I sincerely apologies for doing so.

Lets get this CLEAR gents for those who do bash. This expansion revived FW PVP. Before the patch I can say on comms and chats that people COMPLAINED to no end how bad pvp was,that there was not much. Funny thing was we still had very high kill rates at the time but people wanted more. Some left for 0.0 hoping to find this BUT ALMOST ALL CAME BACK because they realized that FW was still one of the best places for pvp. This expansion has given us exactly what we wanted more PVP. and for this THANK YOU CCP. CCP should be told they solved this problem perfectly.

On a personal note just saying that you are aware of the problem but that you are trying to fix this during the winter when you get your manpower back is awesome. This lets me know for one that you see it and acknowledge it and second you have given us a time frame that i will not post on my calander but about a time in which we can maybe see changes and yes i know it will be next year but that is better then nothing. I plan on playing this game till they shut it down. I guess being in the dark not knowing what CCP thinks or is planning makes people think nothing is happening.

Maybe for a short term solution. Add missile spaming npc's to all FW plexes. To the level that the caldari have in thier plexes. This would solve the problem in the short term until you guys address it in the long run. In all honesty EW NPC's are doing good. What makes it hard is the missile spams. This would solve the afk plexing problems of new alts. Just my two cents.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#53 - 2012-06-04 16:56:00 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Removing EW helps PVP out quite a bit. However, the missile spam vs non-missile spam still allows the side not facing missiles to pretty much afk run plexes with very very low skill alts, EW was never an issue there because those characters are not intended to engage in pvp...

Removing the TP spam from Mime rats should make it possible to AB tank but one or two of their plexes .. all removing eWar at this point does is make NPCs more or less equal, so in a sense plexes will be balanced albeit in the wrong direction Big smile
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#54 - 2012-06-04 16:56:11 UTC
Dopified wrote:

Maybe for a short term solution. Add missile spaming npc's to all FW plexes. To the level that the caldari have in thier plexes. This would solve the problem in the short term until you guys address it in the long run. In all honesty EW NPC's are doing good. What makes it hard is the missile spams. This would solve the afk plexing problems of new alts. Just my two cents.

I'm sure the devs are smarter than me, but I see two potential short term solutions.
1. Yours: Add missile spaming npc's to all FW plexes.
2. Require all NPCs in a plex be killed.

Dopified
Black Eagle5
#55 - 2012-06-04 17:02:42 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Dopified wrote:

Maybe for a short term solution. Add missile spaming npc's to all FW plexes. To the level that the caldari have in thier plexes. This would solve the problem in the short term until you guys address it in the long run. In all honesty EW NPC's are doing good. What makes it hard is the missile spams. This would solve the afk plexing problems of new alts. Just my two cents.

I'm sure the devs are smarter than me, but I see two potential short term solutions.
1. Yours: Add missile spaming npc's to all FW plexes.
2. Require all NPCs in a plex be killed.



I have thought of that and saw Superchair's post about it. Good idea one problem i see is that the plex bug might come into affect. If they can not get it closed for normal purposes then maybe adding the change of killing NPC's to close it will be a catastophe. Just saying Roll
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-06-04 17:03:21 UTC
I have to 100% disagree,

As a player that have ran both caldari and gallente missions I do know a thing or two about the npcs.

1) Yes you can solo majors (caldari and gallente) in a frigate (not nessacarly t1). The issue is that you will not be able to fight and you will be simply farming (which is the point of the farmer)

2) Farmers are a VERY IMPORTANT part of this new patch. For example the amarrians have tons of plexe avalaible. They need plexers to go out and hit systems that are empty if plays an important part in the contestation of systems. If you change the game mechanic that all npcs must be killed the losing faction will not be able to fight back as easily.

Again the afk plexers are very very very important for a losing faction. It maintains balance.

3) I run majors when im going for LP in a malediction. Even going 5k a sec I still take dings. I know you can do the same in caldari plexes as well. The missions for gallente are always speed tanked with an inty. I haven't seen afk condors running around speed tanking majors. They do speed tank minors and mediums but the gallente can do that as well.

I see zero problems with the current NPC mechanics. Each faction has different effects and each faction is smart enough to figure out how to counter it. We have to put sensor damps on our ships when we run missions, gallente usually use drones, etc

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Princess Nexxala
Federal Navy Academy
#57 - 2012-06-04 17:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Nexxala
You guys can tank/run a gal major in a no skilled alt flying a condor solo, we can most definitely NOT do that. Hence why people are complaining.

BolsterBomb wrote:

3) I run majors when im going for LP in a malediction. Even going 5k a sec I still take dings. I know you can do the same in caldari plexes as well. The missions for gallente are always speed tanked with an inty. I haven't seen afk condors running around speed tanking majors. They do speed tank minors and mediums but the gallente can do that as well.

nom nom

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#58 - 2012-06-04 17:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Dopified wrote:
I have thought of that and saw Superchair's post about it. Good idea one problem i see is that the plex bug might come into affect. If they can not get it closed for normal purposes then maybe adding the change of killing NPC's to close it will be a catastophe. Just saying Roll
I think it can only be bugged if there is both factions are near the timer at the same time - which doesn't happen with afk plexing. Damar or Val Erian will know more about the specifics of the plexing bug.

Edit: If you were saying that layering another requirement on top of the plex bug may end up being a disaster, then... yes you may be right!
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-06-04 17:21:29 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
You guys can tank/run a gal major in a no skilled alt flying a condor solo, we can most definitely NOT do that. Hence why people are complaining.

BolsterBomb wrote:

3) I run majors when im going for LP in a malediction. Even going 5k a sec I still take dings. I know you can do the same in caldari plexes as well. The missions for gallente are always speed tanked with an inty. I haven't seen afk condors running around speed tanking majors. They do speed tank minors and mediums but the gallente can do that as well.



As I said I have not seen condors taking majors yet. If they are out there its few and between. (not going to say they cant it just isn't practical when you are doing it for lp)

But again, does it really matter that a farmer takes a single major in a single system.

What I see more of is people creating alts to defensive plex. Not offensive plex.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#60 - 2012-06-04 17:27:24 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
2) Farmers are a VERY IMPORTANT part of this new patch. For example the amarrians have tons of plexe avalaible. They need plexers to go out and hit systems that are empty if plays an important part in the contestation of systems. If you change the game mechanic that all npcs must be killed the losing faction will not be able to fight back as easily.

Again the afk plexers are very very very important for a losing faction. It maintains balance.



Here I strongly disagree. AFK plexers are a problem, not a solution. I don't think the design mission of FW is "lets allow plexes to be taken AFK, cause we want a gameplay mechanic that requires alts and AFK play because plexing is boring".