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AFK Cloaking in System is a Terrible Mechanic
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Enquirer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-05-20 18:44:31 UTC
AFK cloakers arose to the presence of local.
What if local didnt represent only a system but a region instead. This would allow for small groups and solo units some ability to hide. It would force the local people to scan to see if the new comer entered their system... Knowing a neutral is in local but not knowing in which system among say a region would open up some use for cloakers and black ops ships that currently local robs them of.
Selinate
#82 - 2012-05-20 18:44:33 UTC
The entire point of using a cov ops cloak is defeated simply by having local, which is moving about undetected. Local needs to be fixed.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#83 - 2012-05-20 18:45:35 UTC
Aww, do you not like being able to get in undetected?

I dodn't want that gank anyway, I was just ... afk cloaking !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-05-20 18:58:19 UTC
Eso Es wrote:
WWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAa!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want risk free PvE in nullsec



Shocked

[URL="https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82348"]UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch[/URL]
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-05-20 19:02:30 UTC
Draydin Warsong wrote:
I am amazed at the people in this thread that have said cloakers go afk because it so boring. When I go out in my stealth bomber I afk not because I am bored...but because it is the only way to defeat the broken mechanic that is local. I have to wait 3-4 days for someone to get comfortable enough in system to continue mining/ratting etc before I can even get a kill...that is the whole point. That you cower in fear inside your outpost/POS is just a bonusTwisted. To nerf cloak mechanics without removing bombers showing up on local would be to make them entirely useless. Bombers are MEANT to be able to sneak into a system to disrupt enemy industry.

If they cant get rid of local than staying the course is the only option here.

Also...I am to lazy to go back and look up who he was earlier in this thread but I do believe I have spotted my first carebear whiner goon. Haha. Sorry I just find that amusing...like finding a four leaf clover or something...proof that they ARE really people behind the keyboards and not future aliens from Venus come back in time to take over our space pixels and troll our forums.


To quote Lord Tyrian, "I like you."

[URL="https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82348"]UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch[/URL]
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2012-05-20 19:21:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Tippia wrote:
The best solution so far remains the idea that cloaking removes you from local, in both senses: you cannot be seen in the local user list, and you cannot see the local user list.


Yes let's add risk-free easymode PvP for everyone who bothers to train Electronics V and Cloaking IV

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2012-05-20 19:36:15 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Yes let's add risk-free easymode PvP for everyone who bothers to train Electronics V and Cloaking IV
Yes, because losing the ability to spot targets easily and having no idea what you might encounter should you choose to attack is both risk-free and easymode. Roll
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2012-05-20 19:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Tippia wrote:
Yes, because losing the ability to spot targets easily and having no idea what you might encounter should you choose to attack is both risk-free and easymode. Roll


Finding the targets would be no problem when you're in a ship that can scan 100% sites (anoms) while cloaked, scout belts out and maintain itself entirely undetectable while sitting at, say, a cyno beacon or jump bridge.

Everything would be entirely in your favor.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2012-05-20 19:46:36 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Finding the targets would be no problem when you're in a ship that can scan 100% sites (anoms) while cloaked, scout belts out and maintain itself entirely undetectable while sitting at, say, a cyno beacon or jump bridge.
Oh, you mean those things you have to warp to and risk being uncloaked, and having to do all of that because there is no longer any way to tell whether there are any targets around or not…?

…and even then, not being sure what it is you're going to encounter.

What you're describing can already be done, but local makes it easier and faster since you know whether it's worth doing at all. So yeah, no. Not easymode and not risk-free, since you're only ever losing the ability to predict your encounter.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-05-20 19:58:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and even then, not being sure what it is you're going to encounter.


That uncertainty is entirely offset by the fact that only you dictate when you engage.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#91 - 2012-05-20 20:00:45 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Myz Toyou wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The mechanic that is causing your problems is local. That's what needs to be fixed.


ahahahahahahaha

no



Would the removal of local affect your botting or why are you so against it ?


oh man I love it when people bring the botting argument in favor of removing local

attempting to curb botting with changes to game mechanics is stupid because bots can dscan better than a human player, they can inject code to get the local list anyway, and they can respond to threats faster

try harder~


What's the problem with removing local?
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2012-05-20 20:04:33 UTC
LittleTerror wrote:
What's the problem with removing local?


I already pointed them out, now give me a reason for removing it.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#93 - 2012-05-20 20:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Richard Desturned wrote:
That uncertainty is entirely offset by the fact that only you dictate when you engage.
…which you already can, and which doesn't remove that uncertainty since the whole point is that you inherently don't have enough information to make a fully informed decision any more, so it's not actually offset at all. Dictating when you engage helps when you can pick the best opportunity to strike — with the added uncertainty, you no longer can.

You're arguing that having less information at your disposal makes things easier and less risky. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2012-05-20 20:14:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
That uncertainty is entirely offset by the fact that only you dictate when you engage.
…which you already can, and which doesn't remove that uncertainty since the whole point is that you inherently don't have enough information to make a fully informed decision any more, so it's not actually offset at all. Dictating when you engage helps when you can pick the best opportunity to strike — with the added uncertainty, you no longer can.

You're arguing that having less information at your disposal makes things easier and less risky. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.


okay and how would the target be able to determine whether he's about to get warped onto or not

at least in a wormhole you have to be probed out, showing you probes on dscan

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2012-05-20 20:19:29 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
okay and how would the target be able to determine whether he's about to get warped onto or not
The same way as now. In other words, it makes no difference and doesn't suddenly turn anything into risk-free easymode.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2012-05-20 20:21:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
okay and how would the target be able to determine whether he's about to get warped onto or not
The same way as now. In other words, it makes no difference and doesn't suddenly turn anything into risk-free easymode.


oh yeah i forgot that there is no ship in the game with the ability to warp cloaked

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-05-20 20:22:03 UTC
There's no reason to change anything.

If you're too scared to move because of a red in your system then that's your problem.. Grow a pair and take a chance, be out in something you can defend yourself with, or go with others..

If you don't want to face this fear, then I have news for your, CCP already offers a place Without Local.. It's called WH's. Go there and have fun.

The cloaking mechanic works fine.
The Local Channel works fine.
And there's a provided alternative called Wormholes for you to go too if you want to be without local.

Don't see why CCP has to nerf Cloaking, or kill Local, just because you don't have a pair, or refuse to go to the areas of space that already have what you are asking for.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#98 - 2012-05-20 20:24:33 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
oh yeah i forgot that there is no ship in the game with the ability to warp cloaked
…in other words, it makes no difference and doesn't suddenly turn anything into risk-free easymode. Quite the opposite since you have less information available as far as what it is you're warping to.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#99 - 2012-05-20 20:24:34 UTC  |  Edited by: malcovas Henderson
Tippia wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Finding the targets would be no problem when you're in a ship that can scan 100% sites (anoms) while cloaked, scout belts out and maintain itself entirely undetectable while sitting at, say, a cyno beacon or jump bridge.
Oh, you mean those things you have to warp to and risk being uncloaked, and having to do all of that because there is no longer any way to tell whether there are any targets around or not…?

…and even then, not being sure what it is you're going to encounter.

What you're describing can already be done, but local makes it easier and faster since you know whether it's worth doing at all. So yeah, no. Not easymode and not risk-free, since you're only ever losing the ability to predict your encounter.


What I see here in this thread, is plain and simple nullbears QQ. What you are say does not change this. Infact it would indeed worsen the situation.

Being in a cloaky does not give you all the intel in the system. Guess what. To find that out you have to move. Risk getting de-cloaked, bla bla bla. Infact by not being in the local, will make gathering intel a whole lot easier. They dont see you, they dont dock up. Thus revealing the ships they are using.

Then you would have the next wave crying QQ, We can't tell if theres a cloaky in our system, let us see the AFK cloakies so we know they're there and when they're not. So we can absolutey know, when we are safe to mine / bot

Local is not the broken mechanic here. What is broken is people's perception of a perceived threat.


o7

EDIT:- Wording
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#100 - 2012-05-20 20:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
It's really a no brainer that appearing in local defeats classic stealth - "Pssst....they don't even know we're here!" Yet, the flipside to that would be employing the worn out phrase, "This is EVE - trust no one." Assume they're there. There's always going to be someone "there." True, appearing in local as this huge neon red thingy sort of blows the surprise. And, just as true, not being able to actually locate a covert, cloaked ship means its cover isn't actually BLOWN blown...if that makes sense.

I'd say if you're truly vigilant, and situationally aware, you'd function like there's a surprise attack brewing all the time (even if there may not be.) It's called OPERATIONAL SECURITY. Even IF there is a surprise attack in the offing, you can absorb it, and turn it. We call the ones who can't do this "losers." We call the ones who CAN do this "winners."

It would also be wise to assume your enemy has as much intel on YOU as YOU have on THEM. They may not. You don't care. You function AS IF they do. Of course, when dealing with an undisciplined, impatient, lazy and easily distracted general population who at the same time like to see themselves as elite in every way, you'll find suggestions to make it EASIER on them. Too many buttons to push (God forbid!) Too many little extra things to do! "Why can't this be EASY??"

You can either rise to the occassion or you're in the wrong field of activity. Instead of ganking miners and pretending it's PvP, you may should be mining. If you want the game to do everything FOR you, so you don't have to KNOW anything, or DO anything...which is what this eventually boils down to, find something not as challenging that requires less of your effort and attention. Seriously. You'd be much happier. Unhappiness reduces your life expectancy - as does constant hostility.

I like the idea of not really knowing who's in a system. I don't like it that local is a tattletale. Vyl's idea of making you appear in local only if you use it seems mechanically valid as it's already used in NPC corp chat. I also like the idea of classic intel gathering. I think it would make warfare require more SKILL. You'd need specialization - intel and counter intel. That would add a nice dimension to things that would have people grabbing for the gray matter.

I don't think what I think is what should be. It's what I think. Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.