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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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-IDEA-,Virtual Arena
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
#21 - 2012-05-03 21:06:11 UTC
kardjaval wrote:
ALLOWS PLAYER TO PRACTICE PVP with the variables set in stone.


That's not PvP.

The problem with arenas is that they wouldn't build confidence for real PvP like you think, it would cause people to be even more afraid of the variable nature of real PvP and make them just stay in the 'safe' PvP arenas. Eve isn't supposed to be safe though, ever, that's one of Eve's core philosophies.

The system doesn't need to set up a safe area for people to PvP, people need to be willing to just go do it. A 2-week old player can easily afford to go out and shoot something in a frig, he just needs to decide to do it, that's on him.
kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
#22 - 2012-05-03 21:06:23 UTC
Random Majere wrote:
I proposed something similar in the past. Except you retained your skill lvl and played against other Eve players. Basically, my proposition was that you would have "simulators" in stations where your character would enter and have "simulated" fleet fights (or 1Vs1s) against other Eve players (and in ships that your character can fly). Some people liked it and some others did not.

I personally think like you that an arena style PvP feature would generate a lot of new excitement within the player base. It would even help new players learn how to PvP without loosing their shirts. The thing however, you would need to restrict that thing because to many people would stick to it and never leave station. This would lower "real" PvP activity and no one wants that. I think it is the main fear of those who are flaming your idea atm. The SiSi and RvB argument is rather weak if you ask me. I think most Eve players would benefit from some sort of Arena system within the game. I play Word of Tanks a lot and those short 5 to 15 minutes tank fights really are fun. Maybe CCP should consider having this in the game but like I said....with some limitations.



another possible limitation could be pausing of the skill que while in the pvp arena game, most battles would only last 5 to 15 minutes, so it wouldn't have a significant impact on training, but doing nothing but that as pvp would severely hamper a player's skill growth.
kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
#23 - 2012-05-03 21:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: kardjaval
mxzf wrote:
kardjaval wrote:
ALLOWS PLAYER TO PRACTICE PVP with the variables set in stone.


That's not PvP.

The problem with arenas is that they wouldn't build confidence for real PvP like you think, it would cause people to be even more afraid of the variable nature of real PvP and make them just stay in the 'safe' PvP arenas. Eve isn't supposed to be safe though, ever, that's one of Eve's core philosophies.

The system doesn't need to set up a safe area for people to PvP, people need to be willing to just go do it. A 2-week old player can easily afford to go out and shoot something in a frig, he just needs to decide to do it, that's on him.



if eve wasn't s'posed to be safe, why can players stay in station for their entire gameplay life, and get filthy rich, and be able to fly any craft?

eve has safe spots, and unsafe spots, just like EVERY other game, no, hoppin into a arena and defeating another player is a confidence builder, regardless of whether the the variables are set in stone, it's a psycho placebo effect, the same reason why soldier who shoot expert have more confidence in their shooting skills then those who fail, or only shoot marksmen, it doesn't properly reflect actual combat, but shooting at those pop down targets, which are at preset range, and generally preset pattern, builds confidence when you hit em all.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#24 - 2012-05-03 21:11:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
kardjaval wrote:
another possible limitation could be pausing of the skill que while in the pvp arena game, most battles would only last 5 to 15 minutes, so it wouldn't have a significant impact on training, but doing nothing but that as pvp would severely hamper a player's skill growth.

You are aware that getting podded without an updated clone can set you back days or even WEEKS worth of training time.... right?

edit:
kardjaval wrote:
if eve wasn't s'posed to be safe, why can players stay in station for their entire gameplay life, and get filthy rich

Just because you are in station, it doesn't mean you are safe. Your wallet can just as easily disappear due to "market PvP."

And the reason some people get so wealthy in station is because not many people are THAT good in dealing with the nuances of the market.

kardjaval wrote:
eve has safe spots, and unsafe spots, just like EVERY other game,

Name one "safe sport" in EVE that doesn't involve ship destruction and/or wallet nuking.

kardjaval wrote:
no, hoppin into a arena and defeating another player is a confidence builder,

... which is quickly set back when someone who is used to "instanced 1v1s" goes into low-sec and gets brutally ganked by people who don't honor 1v1s.


kardjaval wrote:
it does properly reflect actual combat

No it doesn't. It does not teach newbies basic survival and PvP skills. It just teaches them, "approach, keep at range, F1 - F5, etc."

"Real PvP" involves a great deal more than just fitting ships (and there is a VERY big difference between setting up ships for solo, 1v1, and gang roles). It also includes learning aggro mechanics, general awareness of one's surroundings, learning how to adapt to a dynamic situation, and being able to keep a cool head when everything around you is falling to pieces.

How did you Veterans start?
kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
#25 - 2012-05-03 21:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: kardjaval
ShahFluffers wrote:
Hypothetical situation: I feel the need for some PvP. Under your proposed system, I have two options...

Option 1: I go into a "PvP simulator" and choose whatever ship I want, fit it however I want, and can engage someone in a 1v1 match without fear of that person's friend coming in an supporting him/her. It is an instance that cannot be interfered with. Win or lose, I gain and lose nothing tangible. But I can still say I PvPed.

Option 2: I buy a ship and fit it using ISK that I spent hours making, run into low-sec, try engaging that solo frigate in the top belt not knowing whether or not said solo frigate has friends waiting to decloak all around me and/or a booster alt nearby. There is no instancing, no rules, people can stack advantages in their favor, and you are fair game to everyone just like everyone else. If I die, I lose all the ISK I spent on that ship... possibly might even have to pay for a new clone. If I win, I MIGHT get some mods out my opponent's wreck... but the ISK I get out of selling it will go into paying for ship repairs.

Question: Why would I ever choose Option 2 if Option 1 is available?

That is how it takes away from "real PvP."



because option 2 rewards a tangible reward in the form of a killmail, as well as phat loots, you can help affect the sov of the system, as well as destroy someone elses hard earned isk, you affect not just yourself, and your victim, but teh very foundation of eves pvp.
not only that, but your hypothetical situation is not real pvp, it's ganking, plain and simple, suprised ganking a player isn't propr pvp, it's like picking on the mentally slowed kid, it's not fun and it just makes you look like a idiot.
kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
#26 - 2012-05-03 21:12:48 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
kardjaval wrote:
another possible limitation could be pausing of the skill que while in the pvp arena game, most battles would only last 5 to 15 minutes, so it wouldn't have a significant impact on training, but doing nothing but that as pvp would severely hamper a player's skill growth.

You are aware that getting podded without an updated clone can set you back days or even WEEKS worth of training time.... right?



what idiot doesn't keep their clone updated?
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-05-03 21:36:32 UTC
That many games within games would be... too unstable.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#28 - 2012-05-03 21:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
kardjaval wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

Question: Why would I ever choose Option 2 if Option 1 is available?


because option 2 rewards a tangible reward in the form of a killmail, as well as phat loots,

I don't need a killmail. I can just FRAPS a battle and crow about my achievement. Just knowing I got the kill will be reward enough... especially given that I know neither side lost anything and that the same person might be back tomorrow to do the duel again.

And as a part-time pirate, I can honestly say "phat loots" from ships is a rarity (we're talking once a month)... especially in low-sec.

kardjaval wrote:
not only that, but your hypothetical situation is not real pvp, it's ganking, plain and simple, suprised ganking a player isn't propr pvp, it's like picking on the mentally slowed kid, it's not fun and it just makes you look like a idiot.

If you are looking for "fairness" in EVE's PvP system then you are in the wrong game. Ganking, blobbing, unfair advantages... everything is designed to allow you to stack the odds in your favor... the same as your enemy. Think "the wild west" in space.

edit:
Quote:
what idiot doesn't keep their clone updated?

It happens to even the best of us. And I know of a few skittish PvP adverse people who stay in high-sec all the time and have never updated their clones because they "don't want to waste ISK." They laugh at me whenever I get podded. Sad

How did you Veterans start?
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
#29 - 2012-05-03 21:56:22 UTC
I agree that the potential danger in this arena idea is having to many people sticking to the "simulators". But anyone intelligent enough at CCP could find ways to limit the time its players would spend in there. So there is no reason that this feature would lower "real" PvP, as long as it is implemented with the right "penalties" or costs.

In my opinion this new feature could attract a significant amount of new players.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-05-03 22:59:50 UTC
In 2008 there was a simulator planned, but it did not go through because of difficulties with impliementing it on a single shard at that one time.

With the new crime watch system coming out there, i was told there going to be a "Duel" system to allow people to duel one another.

In 2010 there was a talk about automating the Tournament System but I don't know what ever happened to that idea.

When ever WIS comes out in 2023 you might see a simulator on there as this would not be on the single shard server.

For those who say that dueling is not sand box are incorrect. as this is just another tool to practice with without going to the sisi server where most people do practice runs.

Now if people we making isk from NPC, this would be an issue.

In the Future I would like to see a betting mechanic to allow E Sports activity that can be stream to Captain Quarters, Adding more tools to the sand box

For now run your Tournament league on SISI. Tape it and present it to the Public.

TURN ON RANT!

FYI battle areana are attempt to make Theme park games into Sandboxes. Not the other way around....I find so many people thinking that people need to learn PVP via dieing a lot, Those people make bad teachers. In sports its call practice. In the Military it is Called Training, In school it is called Studing

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#31 - 2012-05-03 23:45:23 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
"Real PvP" involves a great deal more than just fitting ships (and there is a VERY big difference between setting up ships for solo, 1v1, and gang roles). It also includes learning aggro mechanics, general awareness of one's surroundings, learning how to adapt to a dynamic situation, and being able to keep a cool head when everything around you is falling to pieces.


This. The actual shooting is only about 10% of most PvP. The other 90% is fitting, looking for targets, trying not to become a target yourself, and all the other nuances that go into winning a fight. Arena PvP would be no more representative of real PvP than Incursions are.
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
#32 - 2012-05-04 00:07:04 UTC
mxzf wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
"Real PvP" involves a great deal more than just fitting ships (and there is a VERY big difference between setting up ships for solo, 1v1, and gang roles). It also includes learning aggro mechanics, general awareness of one's surroundings, learning how to adapt to a dynamic situation, and being able to keep a cool head when everything around you is falling to pieces.


This. The actual shooting is only about 10% of most PvP. The other 90% is fitting, looking for targets, trying not to become a target yourself, and all the other nuances that go into winning a fight. Arena PvP would be no more representative of real PvP than Incursions are.


I'm impressed by your logic.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#33 - 2012-05-04 00:16:41 UTC
World of Warcraft ------> that way!!!

The day CCP implement this type of vomit ideas, is the day EvE dies.

The Tears Must Flow
kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
#34 - 2012-05-04 00:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: kardjaval
mxzf wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
"Real PvP" involves a great deal more than just fitting ships (and there is a VERY big difference between setting up ships for solo, 1v1, and gang roles). It also includes learning aggro mechanics, general awareness of one's surroundings, learning how to adapt to a dynamic situation, and being able to keep a cool head when everything around you is falling to pieces.


This. The actual shooting is only about 10% of most PvP. The other 90% is fitting, looking for targets, trying not to become a target yourself, and all the other nuances that go into winning a fight. Arena PvP would be no more representative of real PvP than Incursions are.



nothing is as simple as that in eve, but practicing 1v1 is still beneficial to pvp.

furthermore, my idea also allows players to experiment against pve encounters (with zero reward potential)
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#35 - 2012-05-04 01:06:03 UTC
kardjaval wrote:
nothing is as simple as that in eve, but practicing 1v1 is still beneficial to pvp.


Barely. A 1v1 on "equal footing" will not teach a young pilot that smaller ships can "lock down" big ships... it will not teach people that a big ship can be ground down by a small ship... it will not teach people how to escape from gatecamps... how to "speed tank" an enemy using bigger guns than you... how to alpha a ship smaller than you before it gets under your guns... it does not teach you how to watch local count... how to D-scan... how to probe...

... a 1v1 does not teach you how to take on large numbers of hostile players solo... how to take on someone flying with equipment better than yours... how to lure people into a trap... how to spring a trap properly... how useful it is to set up your overview properly... out how to be useful to a gang... etc. etc. etc.

kardjaval wrote:
furthermore, my idea also allows players to experiment against pve encounters (with zero reward potential)

The only reasons you should ever die to normal NPCs is if you "bit off more than you could chew" (hit too many triggers at the same time), didn't know what you are doing (takes less than 5 to 10 minutes for a veteran to explain how you need to fly, how you need to fit your ship, and why), and/or stupidity (ex. got drunk and forgot to turn on a hardener).

And all of the above are matters of "experience" and "knowledge" than anything else. A "simulator" won't teach you either of those.

With regards to Sleepers and Incursions... those are not "newbie content." Those are "I know damn well what I'm doing" content.

How did you Veterans start?
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-05-04 01:16:48 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
World of Warcraft ------> that way!!!

The day CCP implement this type of vomit ideas, is the day EvE dies.


So Vaju Enki are you so weak that you refuse to allow your prey to learn to defend its self.
With out training many newbs will quit and leave the game, never presenting a Griefer with a real challenge.

If you were truely a PVP Sand box guy you would be saying yes.. on the condition I can hack in and still pop the newb.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
kardjaval
Curtana Joyeuse and Durendal Security
#37 - 2012-05-04 01:21:27 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
kardjaval wrote:
nothing is as simple as that in eve, but practicing 1v1 is still beneficial to pvp.


Barely. A 1v1 on "equal footing" will not teach a young pilot that smaller ships can "lock down" big ships... it will not teach people that a big ship can be ground down by a small ship... it will not teach people how to escape from gatecamps... how to "speed tank" an enemy using bigger guns than you... how to alpha a ship smaller than you before it gets under your guns... it does not teach you how to watch local count... how to D-scan... how to probe...

... a 1v1 does not teach you how to take on large numbers of hostile players solo... how to take on someone flying with equipment better than yours... how to lure people into a trap... how to spring a trap properly... how useful it is to set up your overview properly... out how to be useful to a gang... etc. etc. etc.

kardjaval wrote:
furthermore, my idea also allows players to experiment against pve encounters (with zero reward potential)

The only reasons you should ever die to normal NPCs is if you "bit off more than you could chew" (hit too many triggers at the same time), didn't know what you are doing (takes less than 5 to 10 minutes for a veteran to explain how you need to fly, how you need to fit your ship, and why), and/or stupidity (ex. got drunk and forgot to turn on a hardener).

And all of the above are matters of "experience" and "knowledge" than anything else. A "simulator" won't teach you either of those.

With regards to Sleepers and Incursions... those are not "newbie content." Those are "I know damn well what I'm doing" content.


dying and gain experience are two completely different things... what if a player wants to do a stress test, and see just how much they can bite off, in real eve, they are pretty much guranteed to lose their ship, in the sim, they would be able see just how far they can push the envelope.

furthermore, with my difficulty idea, the npc portion would basically be a instanced ded complex that would reward no loot, and no advantage, it introduce players to ded complex, and furthermore allow players to test the envelope of said complex, a player can attempt to take on a 4/10 ded complex with nothing but a t1 frig, etc etc.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#38 - 2012-05-04 01:34:53 UTC
Already suggested many times.

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2012-05-04 01:38:11 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
World of Warcraft ------> that way!!!

The day CCP implement this type of vomit ideas, is the day EvE dies.


So Vaju Enki are you so weak that you refuse to allow your prey to learn to defend its self.
With out training many newbs will quit and leave the game, never presenting a Griefer with a real challenge.

If you were truely a PVP Sand box guy you would be saying yes.. on the condition I can hack in and still pop the newb.



What's stopping them going to RVB or one of the numerous PVP training corps that currently exist? WHy would a simulator be better?

kardjaval wrote:


dying and gain experience are two completely different things... what if a player wants to do a stress test, and see just how much they can bite off, in real eve, they are pretty much guranteed to lose their ship, in the sim, they would be able see just how far they can push the envelope.

furthermore, with my difficulty idea, the npc portion would basically be a instanced ded complex that would reward no loot, and no advantage, it introduce players to ded complex, and furthermore allow players to test the envelope of said complex, a player can attempt to take on a 4/10 ded complex with nothing but a t1 frig, etc etc.


It's called 'testing to destruction'. How, exactly, would a perfectly controlled sim tell anyone how far they could push anything? PVP is unpredictable, that's the point of it. You cannot teach someone to handle unpredictability by giving them something 100% predictable.
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
#40 - 2012-05-04 01:40:13 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
. A "simulator" won't teach you either of those.



The Military train in simulators

I agree that simulators will never teach you everything. But you cannot deny their value.