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[June] Nullsec Asteroid Cluster and Excavator Drone changes

First post First post
Author
Now Life
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2017-06-03 15:31:47 UTC
Curant Thanger wrote:
Kaidokpi wrote:




Excavators need to be cheaper.


And fly faster not slower
Now the excavators becomes 1 bil flying Pinatas
Altair Taurus
#522 - 2017-06-03 17:23:13 UTC
I suppose next month's Fozzie brilliant idea would be re-spawn timers for high-end null-sec ratting anomalies: Forsaken Hub - 10 minutes, Haven - 20 minutes, Sanctum - 30 minutes. Twisted
Cismet
Silent Industry
Silent Company
#523 - 2017-06-03 17:25:16 UTC
Kaidokpi wrote:
5. The 1 system renters are getting hosed over right?

It really depends on how many people they're trying to cram into 1 system. 10 will be fine. 15 will be a little annoying for those involved. 20 would be a bit overkill but you could still mine for 5 hours straight during your corps prime time netting you 16+ billion isk worth of ore. Possibly as high as 30b per day if you keep rolling the anoms all day long.

You'll have to ask the renters if it's still worth renting under those conditions.

6. Summary and final thoughts

It's a %12 nerf to rorqual yield that will require alliances that stack their miners in 1 or 2 systems to spread out. It brings the rorqual isk/hour down to the point where it's comparable to nullsec carrier ratting. This is probably a good thing as the rorqual will no longer be the automatic end goal for new players looking to make isk in nullsec. Untimely this new nerf may be annoying for us miners but is an appropriate adjustment.

My only complaint is the price of excavators. Their yield has been drastically cut since they were introduced but they still cost 1 billion isk each. It now takes 57 hours of mining in a rorqual to pay for the hull+fit+drones, an absurdly high ROI time compared to something like a carrier (17 hours) which makes similar isk/hour. It also poses a very high barrier of entry to people looking to get into their first rorqual. 3 billion for the hull and fittings + 5 billion isk for the drones is a very high price for a ship that makes less than 2x 300 million isk hulks.

My suggestion would be to leave the cost of the excavators as they are but double the mining amount of t2 drones. This would give rorq pilots a lower risk/reward option but still incentivize people who can afford excavators to continue using them.


For the second time in two days I cannot find a fault in a post from Goonswarm. Careful or you might entice me to applying if I ever find myself corpless in the future ;)

Well thought out, the only thing I'm not sure about is the 3% you factored into the time changes, but it is the biggest variable in the whole thing and it's probably within a single standard deviation of the average either side. I actually hadn't considered the value versus NullSec Carrier ratting, nor did I realise that the Rorq was so much higher.

Put in those terms the nerf to the rorq's yield kind of makes sense, but as you quite rightly point out, the PRICE definitely doesn't. The cost of the rorqual is ludicrous when you factor in the excavators and this nerf would be a lot easier to swallow if the cost wasn't so confoundedly high. You don't need my approval, but Goons get a lot of crap throughout the forums and not a lot of praise most of the time, so it's great to see an excellent post.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#524 - 2017-06-03 17:27:02 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
I suppose next month's Fozzie brilliant idea would be re-spawn timers for high-end null-sec ratting anomalies: Forsaken Hub - 10 minutes, Haven - 20 minutes, Sanctum - 30 minutes. Twisted


You forgot something. It will come along side a 40% nerf to bounties and a gate mechanic into each anomaly to bar use of super capitals
Kaidokpi
Extremely Frequent Failures Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#525 - 2017-06-03 17:34:46 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:

Using your numbers, run Colossal > Large > Enormous > Large and repeat which would support 15 miners in a system

0 - 2h48 Colossal (start 5h Colossal timer)
2h48-4h13 Large (3h35 left on Col, start 2h Large)
4h13 - 6h20 Enormous (1h32 left on Col, Large respawned, start 4hr Enormous)
6h20 - 7h45 Large (7m left on Col, 2h35 left on Enorm, start 2h Large)


Yeah, that checks out. The catch with these theoretical orders we're coming up with is that they depend on starting with fresh anoms and convincing all your corp/alliance members to run them in the "correct" order as soon as it gets screwed up it will take several hours to "reset" the system back to where it can be chained properly. This may work if you're a single group mining in 1 system but larger alliances are probably going to have to spread out a bit more.

Curant Thanger wrote:

Pretty sure this isn't how most people fit their Rorquals, hence part of the problem, most people don't have the luxury of mining with 10 other rorquals for defense with supers ready to drop right around the corner. They need those 2 mid slots and usually two of those rig slots to make a balanced defense. Which is what makes these complaints, the vast majority of rorqual pilots start with lower yield than this, and it's only getting lower, but the ship still requires a minimum 8bn isk investment.

Excavators need to be cheaper.


A 5 slot rorq can tank 10k dps sustained, and has a PANIC module that literally makes it invulnerable for several minutes. If that's not enough tank/time to save you then it's highly doubtful a few more mid slots and rigs will make a difference. Also, if you're flying an 8 billion isk ship that must be sieged to work properly without a support fleet you may want to re-evaluate whether or not you should be flying a rorq.

I do agree that excavator prices need to be significantly cheaper to match their reduced yield, or alternatively buff the yield on t2 drones to provide a viable low cost option.

Lothros Andastar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#526 - 2017-06-03 18:17:51 UTC
Thank you for the buff Fozzie. Delve will be able to crank out even MORE ore than other regions now!
Ghar Atu'ur
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#527 - 2017-06-03 20:11:53 UTC
Please dear pilots stop complaining about another nerf. There is no use. Mr. Fozzie and the rest of dev team want us to believe that if something is good it needs to be nerfed. After all, the real world works the same way. Apple and company release smart phones and people love them, use them, have fun with them; the smart phones become integral part of modern life. After a while Mr Fozzie and the rest of the dev team have a look at the smart phone and nerfs it. Back to a ROTARY Phone for us all! So please stop complaining and accept the NEW reality. Thank You All Very Much.
Odelll
Project Valhalla.
The Initiative.
#528 - 2017-06-03 20:32:49 UTC
The problem here is micro-transactions and plex, In a true sandbox world the markets would crash, its basic economics 101. Demand out strips supply and prices decline, no problems.

However now CCP has started selling isk they do not want players to be able to deflate the markets because then the vast majority of plex sales (being people who want to casually login, buy a ship or two) would end up requiring less plex to obtain their needs.

This is EXACTLY why micro-transactions are a bad idea and have killed other games in the past, the focus from the Dev's turns from how to keep people subscribed to how to generate micro-transaction sales and end up killing off you core-player base as a direct result.
mrammo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#529 - 2017-06-03 20:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: mrammo
If you want to fix the mineral market you should just increase mineral requirements of blueprints by 15% accross the board.
Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
#530 - 2017-06-03 22:16:40 UTC
First they came for the Retriever and Procurer, nerfing them 25% - but we didn't say anything because we don't fly those.

Then they came and put a 4 hour respawn cycle on the Ice, moving them into anons, but we didn't say anything because we don't mine that.

Now they have come for Rorq and its drones; so I am going to point these Precedents, grin at a Schadenfreude. I do not fly those. hahahahaha.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#531 - 2017-06-03 22:42:13 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
I suppose next month's Fozzie brilliant idea would be re-spawn timers for high-end null-sec ratting anomalies: Forsaken Hub - 10 minutes, Haven - 20 minutes, Sanctum - 30 minutes. Twisted


Would be hilarious. Do it.

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Phish'R'Price
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2017-06-03 22:56:52 UTC
Mabey you guys should have seen this coming with multiple people mining with 50 rorqs and kicked them the F*** OUT!

The Small operations run by smaller groups will be alright, and so will you. If you cared so much about the "GAME" and the people in it, you wouldn’t have let these idiots run wild and do this crap. You have only yourselves to blame. You didn’t govern your own so now CCP is doing it for you, get real....what did y’all expect was going to happen?

Seeing how this thread is 95% goon salt indicates to me of a serious problem in your neighborhood.

Keep doing what you’re doing and expect another nerf sooner than you may expect.

IMHO the rorq should have only ever been a platform for boosting, collection of ore, repping fleets members, defence and rock crushing. The mining was a HUGE mistake.

Fairy tales of a small group setting out into a solar system and mining alone have been crushed by people abusing the **** out of anything they can. This is EvE and more over the classic GREED of a man to have more than anyone around him.
BTW stop trying to compare a ratting carrier to Rorq mining…you can semi afk 5 rorqs and it takes considerably more effort to rat in a carrier. If they did put cooldown timers on anoms you would complain even more anyways so….

Anyway gg, and consider the rorq a huge GIFT from CCP, you’re lucky they have not took away the mining ability as of yet. You have made an absolute killing off of it, and you have a thing called skill extractors. If your feelings about it are that strong petition for enough extractors to remove all those skills.
PRPBig smile
Cade Windstalker
#533 - 2017-06-03 23:07:22 UTC
Afropty wrote:
BUT WE PAY FOR A SUBSCRIPTION WE DESERVE NO CHANGE...... AT LEAST I PAY THE ANUAL SUBSCRIPTION


Geez, fix your caps lock key.

But yeah, no, everyone pays for their subscription one way or another, no one gets to dictate what the devs do no matter how much money they spend on the game.

Besides an oversupply of minerals hurts some players and helps others, so saying that "we deserve no change" is just ignorant and ridiculous.

Thead Enco wrote:
Hi Fozzie Big smile


Nope, guess again Big smile

(hint, it's the name next to this post)

Seriously though, I'm not some mouthpiece for CCP or whatever the stuff you've been snorting has convinced you I am. I'm someone who can read a graph and a supply curve, that's all. Anyone who can do either of those should have been able to look at last month's MER and come to the conclusion that unless production dropped (unlikely) there were going to be more Rorqual/Mining tweaks.

Abadayos wrote:
Actually it does impact on total yield if you do it in a time scale. Isk generation is calculated by 'ticks' (20 minute payout blocks) or ISK Per Hour (60 minute blocks). Travel time is exactly that...time. 12.5% speed reduction is (very rough napkin math out of my butthole)say 3% yield reduction per hour, ontop of the flat 9% actual yield reduction per hour, we are at minimum looking at 10-12% total yield reduction, depending on how close you hump your rocks.

One time the drone could be 500 meters from you when they finish their cycle, the next it could be on the other side of the rock at 4km from you. The first is (at base 175m/s from what I remember seeing on teh SiSi pic) pretty much instant dock and relaunch. The 4km distant one has got 10-15 seconds of travel time. Split the difference and it's 7 seconds per cycle to either return, or go to an asteroid, 14 seconds round trip. Cycle time is what? 60 seconds now? So your looking at 22-25% extra non-mining time assuming your humping the rock, on average. So for your 60 minutes mining...your only mining 45 minutes and 15 minutes is travel time. Thus travel time and drone speed DOES in fact factor into yield indirectly


I never said that the travel time didn't impact the practical yield, I said it doesn't impact it in any kind of easily predictable fashion, and that the minimum potential impact is zero if the asteroid is sized such that the drones are always within drop-off range when they finish their cycle.

Your math there is questionable at best, because in practice the drones are going to end up at a distance based more on your positioning and the size of the rock, not some easily calculated range.

Also Excavators gain the effects of Drone Navigation as well as the speed bonus from the Mining Core, so the actual speed of the drones ends up being around 500m/s now and around 450 after the patch, higher if you add in Drone Navigation Computers in exchange for less tank.
captwolf
Goldwolf inc
#534 - 2017-06-04 03:17:34 UTC
Its funny i have been reading alot of these posts and have come to a conclusion. I may be wrong here , but it seems like everyone is isk hungry and if they cant make a billion isk an hour then the game is ****. I remamber when if you made a million a week you was doing great now if your not doing 100m /hr your ****. with all the changes i see EvE just becomeing anther of the 1000's of give me everything now games i dont want to have to earn it. I have 120million SP i got from PLAYING off and on for 7 years but there is 2 day old pilots with 150 million just because he can buy 200 X 500 plex now . now you complaining that mining is getting nurfed again its still alot better than it was when all you had was just belts even in null.



any way sorry for the bad spelling and grammer

CaptWolf

PS
just work at it
Curant Thanger
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#535 - 2017-06-04 03:24:56 UTC
Kaidokpi wrote:


A 5 slot rorq can tank 10k dps sustained, and has a PANIC module that literally makes it invulnerable for several minutes. If that's not enough tank/time to save you then it's highly doubtful a few more mid slots and rigs will make a difference. Also, if you're flying an 8 billion isk ship that must be sieged to work properly without a support fleet you may want to re-evaluate whether or not you should be flying a rorq.

I do agree that excavator prices need to be significantly cheaper to match their reduced yield, or alternatively buff the yield on t2 drones to provide a viable low cost option.



They could make meta 1 and t2 excavators to add cost and yield variations, might fix some of the issues.


As for the question of rorqual fitting, depends on the situation you may find yourself in. Tackled by Inner Hell for example, I'd much rather have the extra tank, and form up time varies greatly in most alliances based on any number of issues including time zones, active fleets, and deployments, I guess I'm rorqual mining with the institutional paranoia that's so common in EVE...
NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#536 - 2017-06-04 05:01:47 UTC
Quote:
About 9% less yield for Ore Excavators
12.5% lower speed for Ore Excavators


Ok, i am sure there are reasons for yield decrease, but lowering speed of the drones? Are you seriously high on crack? They are ridiculously slow and they are almost USELESS on large radius asteroids like once they finish mining, they are freaking 20km away from rorqual. Unless you develeope a mechanic that drones will not go further away from rorqual, fine, but dont lower their speed. :/

Tbh, they should have triple or quadruple of the speed bonus when using industrial core over t2 mining drone. :/
Zetakya
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#537 - 2017-06-04 07:52:09 UTC
Philip Shazih wrote:
Good job on killing mining for new players. Large rorq mining fleets will just jump from system to system. The newbies in procs on the other hand will have a much harder time finding ore.

Great job killing mining for newbees.

Thanks fozzie.

What the boss said. This won't affect me - I can load my Rorq up with Hulks in the Ship Bay, pilot my Hulk guys there in Ventures and Cyno the Rorq right into the belt. The guys it screws over are the new bees.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2017-06-04 08:29:21 UTC
Zetakya wrote:

The guys it screws over are the new bees.

Then your leaders should take actions against you for screwing up the new "bees".

I'm my own NPC alt.

Zetakya
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#539 - 2017-06-04 10:30:19 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Zetakya wrote:

The guys it screws over are the new bees.

Then your leaders should take actions against you for screwing up the new "bees".

It's :CCP: that's screwing over the new bees, not our members.

When the game mechanics are fundamentally biased against gate-only miners and in favour of Jump-capable miners... it's the new players who are getting shafted by the game devs.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#540 - 2017-06-04 10:49:08 UTC
Zetakya wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Zetakya wrote:

The guys it screws over are the new bees.

Then your leaders should take actions against you for screwing up the new "bees".

It's :CCP: that's screwing over the new bees, not our members.

When the game mechanics are fundamentally biased against gate-only miners and in favour of Jump-capable miners... it's the new players who are getting shafted by the game devs.

It's up to you as a player organisation to support your newbros and find ways to involve them. If I remember correctly there are things like jump and Titan bridges, capable of transporting any sub-cap ship ...

I'm my own NPC alt.